On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 23:16:42 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 22:41:30 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 21:35:52 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:58:25 -0400, wrote:

We ended up going through Fresno and over on Tioga Pass where they
have to lock up the water.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/california/...he%20Water.jpg

===

That's a common sight if you go boating in the Bahamas or Caribbean.
At 50 cents a gallon in some locations it can cost us over $100 to
fill up. That's still a lot cheaper than making your own however.

I assume you have an RO, how much does it cost to make water.

===

We have tankage for 500 gallons so have never felt the need for a
water maker (RO). They cost upwards of $5 to $7K to buy and install,
take up valuable engine room space, and require a lot of
TLC/maintenance. In addition you need to run the generator which has
a fully loaded cost of $8 to $10 per hour. Assuming a 20 gph water
maker, you're looking at a fully loaded cost in the 70 to 90 cents per
gallon range depending on how you depreciate/amortize the purchase
price.

I was never sure why it should cost that much. I guess running RO from
sea water is tougher than brackish well water.
Basically you just need a high pressure pump and a membrane/vessel for
that along with intake and polishing filters.
Since you are not really pumping that much water, I suppose it could
run off the house battery.
I built one that would make drinking water out of river water and it
ran off of 12vdc. I never actually had to use it and the parts are out
in the shed. It would fill the bladder tank in a few hours tho.
You are not taking showers but it would provide drinking water for a
couple people.
It was a 65 PSI rated chemical pump and the "under sink" R/O setup.
I had a small bladder tank on the input and a bigger one on the
out\put with a precharge of about 20PSI.

wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:15:27 -0500, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 18:27:44 -0500, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 13:48:18 -0500, Califbill billnews wrote:

Went up to Mammoth Lakes, CA for a few days. Wife gave me a guided fishing
trip for Christmas. Great guide. Learned a lot. Fished the Owens River
in a couple areas. Caught a lot of trout. Much more than I have ever done
on a stream. All C&R as it is a wild trout area. No planters. Also
camped at Lake Mary, and kayaked fished the lake. No catching was done by
me. I think because of the temperature all were deeper than I could get
trolling without down digger. Most were caught on bait fishing on anchor.
Good trip, except truck decided it needs a new water pump. Starting to
drip. Tool store was out of 3/4" breaker bars when I stopped and checked.
Have to remove the Harmonic Balancer and is some where between 250-500 ft.
Pounds torque to remove. Will break a 1/2" bar. Ordered bar and socket.


We liked Mammoth. This is from the hiking trail up on the mountain
above it

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/california/Mamoth%20Lakes.jpg

Do you have a big impact wrench. That is the trick for getting the
balancer nut off. You need the 3/4" one tho, not that little 1/2"
harbor fright stuff.
I suppose a Thunder Gun might do it.

I have a 1/2" craftsman, but not enough room without pulling the radiator
and maybe grill. The YouTube directions show a 3/4" with 5' cheater bar.
Yes. Mammoth is nice. My oldest daughter and son in law live in Long Beach
and ski Mammoth Mountain a lot. Problem is the drive to the area. Is
almost directly east of San Jose, but no direct road. I go through
Yosemite Park on 120, and is a 5 hour drive if no bad tourist traffic.
Other bitch is the new fees for Yosemite. $30 for a 7 day pass. I have a
senior pass, so do not pay, but a national park. Why so expensive? Hurts
the family that wants to make a day trip from the valley towns. Want more
money, raise the fees on hotels and the company who runs the park. Curry
Company uses to run the park and only paid a 2% royalty. I think it is
only 6% now. Costs as much to dry camp in the park, not even the valley as
you pay in June Lake with electric and power. Where are the tax dollars
for th park service going?

I got a real kick out of my wife on that trip. We were in Sequoia NP
south of King's Canyon and she said we were going to Mammoth next.
When I asked how she thought we were going to get there she showed me
a blue line on the map. It was a river coming down out of the
mountains.

We ended up going through Fresno and over on Tioga Pass where they
have to lock up the water.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/california/...he%20Water.jpg

The San Joaquin River is the only River that starts on the eastern side of
the sierras. Is pretty much all used by the time it gets to the Sacramento

Delta. Is a low spot, and flows through Reds meadows above Mammoth. He
West. Where Whiskey is for drinking and water is for fighting. Samuel
Clemons. Years ago they wanted to put a freeway through to Mammoth from
the West. Reagan luckily stopped that enviro disaster.

This river just went down the west slope (Kings river?). There is
another one in a similar place on the east side but they are not
connected.

Kings does not go through. Nice River, but seems to claim a few lives each
year. Some Rapids, and alcohol and youth make for a bad mix.

On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 00:23:24 -0500, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:15:27 -0500, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 18:27:44 -0500, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 13:48:18 -0500, Califbill billnews wrote:

Went up to Mammoth Lakes, CA for a few days. Wife gave me a guided fishing
trip for Christmas. Great guide. Learned a lot. Fished the Owens River
in a couple areas. Caught a lot of trout. Much more than I have ever done
on a stream. All C&R as it is a wild trout area. No planters. Also
camped at Lake Mary, and kayaked fished the lake. No catching was done by
me. I think because of the temperature all were deeper than I could get
trolling without down digger. Most were caught on bait fishing on anchor.
Good trip, except truck decided it needs a new water pump. Starting to
drip. Tool store was out of 3/4" breaker bars when I stopped and checked.
Have to remove the Harmonic Balancer and is some where between 250-500 ft.
Pounds torque to remove. Will break a 1/2" bar. Ordered bar and socket.


We liked Mammoth. This is from the hiking trail up on the mountain
above it

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/california/Mamoth%20Lakes.jpg

Do you have a big impact wrench. That is the trick for getting the
balancer nut off. You need the 3/4" one tho, not that little 1/2"
harbor fright stuff.
I suppose a Thunder Gun might do it.

I have a 1/2" craftsman, but not enough room without pulling the radiator
and maybe grill. The YouTube directions show a 3/4" with 5' cheater bar.
Yes. Mammoth is nice. My oldest daughter and son in law live in Long Beach
and ski Mammoth Mountain a lot. Problem is the drive to the area. Is
almost directly east of San Jose, but no direct road. I go through
Yosemite Park on 120, and is a 5 hour drive if no bad tourist traffic.
Other bitch is the new fees for Yosemite. $30 for a 7 day pass. I have a
senior pass, so do not pay, but a national park. Why so expensive? Hurts
the family that wants to make a day trip from the valley towns. Want more
money, raise the fees on hotels and the company who runs the park. Curry
Company uses to run the park and only paid a 2% royalty. I think it is
only 6% now. Costs as much to dry camp in the park, not even the valley as
you pay in June Lake with electric and power. Where are the tax dollars
for th park service going?

I got a real kick out of my wife on that trip. We were in Sequoia NP
south of King's Canyon and she said we were going to Mammoth next.
When I asked how she thought we were going to get there she showed me
a blue line on the map. It was a river coming down out of the
mountains.

We ended up going through Fresno and over on Tioga Pass where they
have to lock up the water.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/california/...he%20Water.jpg

The San Joaquin River is the only River that starts on the eastern side of
the sierras. Is pretty much all used by the time it gets to the Sacramento

Delta. Is a low spot, and flows through Reds meadows above Mammoth. He
West. Where Whiskey is for drinking and water is for fighting. Samuel
Clemons. Years ago they wanted to put a freeway through to Mammoth from
the West. Reagan luckily stopped that enviro disaster.

This river just went down the west slope (Kings river?). There is
another one in a similar place on the east side but they are not
connected.

Kings does not go through. Nice River, but seems to claim a few lives each
year. Some Rapids, and alcohol and youth make for a bad mix.

I was trying to point that out to my wife. It is pretty hard to have a
river that goes over a mountain unless there is a crater lake at the
top. Even then, I bet my rented Jeep was not going to make it ;-)

On 8/24/2015 11:54 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 23:16:42 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 22:41:30 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 21:35:52 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:58:25 -0400, wrote:

We ended up going through Fresno and over on Tioga Pass where they
have to lock up the water.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/california/...he%20Water.jpg

===

That's a common sight if you go boating in the Bahamas or Caribbean.
At 50 cents a gallon in some locations it can cost us over $100 to
fill up. That's still a lot cheaper than making your own however.

I assume you have an RO, how much does it cost to make water.

===

We have tankage for 500 gallons so have never felt the need for a
water maker (RO). They cost upwards of $5 to $7K to buy and install,
take up valuable engine room space, and require a lot of
TLC/maintenance. In addition you need to run the generator which has
a fully loaded cost of $8 to $10 per hour. Assuming a 20 gph water
maker, you're looking at a fully loaded cost in the 70 to 90 cents per
gallon range depending on how you depreciate/amortize the purchase
price.

I was never sure why it should cost that much. I guess running RO from
sea water is tougher than brackish well water.
Basically you just need a high pressure pump and a membrane/vessel for
that along with intake and polishing filters.
Since you are not really pumping that much water, I suppose it could
run off the house battery.
I built one that would make drinking water out of river water and it
ran off of 12vdc. I never actually had to use it and the parts are out
in the shed. It would fill the bladder tank in a few hours tho.
You are not taking showers but it would provide drinking water for a
couple people.
It was a 65 PSI rated chemical pump and the "under sink" R/O setup.
I had a small bladder tank on the input and a bigger one on the
out\put with a precharge of about 20PSI.


One of the houses we had in Florida had a couple of small RO systems,
one in the kitchen for drinking water and another larger system outside
that was used primarily for final rinsing of cars when washing them.
Neither had pumps ... they operated off the house water supply pressure
generated by the well pump.

The well water in Florida (at least where we were) was horrible. Every
house had an elaborate water treatment system consisting of big charcoal
filters and other tanks that did some kind of chemical processing of the
well water. Even with all the processing the water still had a slight
sulfuric smell to it. We never drank it, nor did we use the RO water
for drinking. The RO systems got rid of any funny smell and all the
minerals that left spots on the cars but it had a weird, tasteless taste
if there is such a thing. Everyone in the community used delivered
bottle water for cooking and drinking.

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 23:54:35 -0400, wrote:

I was never sure why it should cost that much. I guess running RO from
sea water is tougher than brackish well water.
Basically you just need a high pressure pump and a membrane/vessel for
that along with intake and polishing filters.
Since you are not really pumping that much water, I suppose it could
run off the house battery.

===

It takes more pressure as salinity levels go up, much more, something
like 2,000 psi for standard sea water. It takes special membranes to
stand up to that kind of pressure and a lot of power to drive the
pump, typically several horsepower. The pumps will not run very long
from a battery.

The membranes are expensive and require special maintenance routines
to maintain their effectiveness. That involves a lot of extra valves
and plumbing. The better units also have computerized controls to
automate the maintenance routines.

Some guys have tried to homebrew inexpensive systems using pressure
washer pumps but the pumps fail very quickly in a salt water
environment.

On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 03:18:04 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 8/24/2015 11:54 PM, wrote:
On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 23:16:42 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 22:41:30 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 21:35:52 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 20:58:25 -0400, wrote:

We ended up going through Fresno and over on Tioga Pass where they
have to lock up the water.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/california/...he%20Water.jpg

===

That's a common sight if you go boating in the Bahamas or Caribbean.
At 50 cents a gallon in some locations it can cost us over $100 to
fill up. That's still a lot cheaper than making your own however.

I assume you have an RO, how much does it cost to make water.

===

We have tankage for 500 gallons so have never felt the need for a
water maker (RO). They cost upwards of $5 to $7K to buy and install,
take up valuable engine room space, and require a lot of
TLC/maintenance. In addition you need to run the generator which has
a fully loaded cost of $8 to $10 per hour. Assuming a 20 gph water
maker, you're looking at a fully loaded cost in the 70 to 90 cents per
gallon range depending on how you depreciate/amortize the purchase
price.

I was never sure why it should cost that much. I guess running RO from
sea water is tougher than brackish well water.
Basically you just need a high pressure pump and a membrane/vessel for
that along with intake and polishing filters.
Since you are not really pumping that much water, I suppose it could
run off the house battery.
I built one that would make drinking water out of river water and it
ran off of 12vdc. I never actually had to use it and the parts are out
in the shed. It would fill the bladder tank in a few hours tho.
You are not taking showers but it would provide drinking water for a
couple people.
It was a 65 PSI rated chemical pump and the "under sink" R/O setup.
I had a small bladder tank on the input and a bigger one on the
out\put with a precharge of about 20PSI.


One of the houses we had in Florida had a couple of small RO systems,
one in the kitchen for drinking water and another larger system outside
that was used primarily for final rinsing of cars when washing them.
Neither had pumps ... they operated off the house water supply pressure
generated by the well pump.

The well water in Florida (at least where we were) was horrible. Every
house had an elaborate water treatment system consisting of big charcoal
filters and other tanks that did some kind of chemical processing of the
well water. Even with all the processing the water still had a slight
sulfuric smell to it. We never drank it, nor did we use the RO water
for drinking. The RO systems got rid of any funny smell and all the
minerals that left spots on the cars but it had a weird, tasteless taste
if there is such a thing. Everyone in the community used delivered
bottle water for cooking and drinking.

Yup "Florida water" sucks, no matter where you are here.
I have a pretty extensive system for making water out of the stuff
that comes out of the ground.
You need an aerator to get rid of the sulfur.
My RO runs on the well pressure too but the one I built for
emergencies was for when the well pumps were not running.
It could make drinking water out of the river. Since I bought the
generator, it is not as big an issue.
Actually right now, the river has less salt in it than my well.
(450 PPM vs 750PPM and 950PPM out of the softener)
Usually the river runs 10-50 times that salty but we have had a
buttload of rain in the Corkscrew this summer.

On Tue, 25 Aug 2015 07:22:26 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Mon, 24 Aug 2015 23:54:35 -0400, wrote:

I was never sure why it should cost that much. I guess running RO from
sea water is tougher than brackish well water.
Basically you just need a high pressure pump and a membrane/vessel for
that along with intake and polishing filters.
Since you are not really pumping that much water, I suppose it could
run off the house battery.

===

It takes more pressure as salinity levels go up, much more, something
like 2,000 psi for standard sea water. It takes special membranes to
stand up to that kind of pressure and a lot of power to drive the
pump, typically several horsepower. The pumps will not run very long
from a battery.

The membranes are expensive and require special maintenance routines
to maintain their effectiveness. That involves a lot of extra valves
and plumbing. The better units also have computerized controls to
automate the maintenance routines.

Some guys have tried to homebrew inexpensive systems using pressure
washer pumps but the pumps fail very quickly in a salt water
environment.

OK now I get it. I assumed making fresh from sea water was tougher
than using the brackish water they normally use (like your CC plant
and the Sanibel plant)
I am surprised they don't sell more distillers. It would seem that
waste heat from the engines would be perfect for that. I know that is
where the water came from on the CG ships but it was still pretty much
rationed.
Fresh water at sea is really the most important thing to have.
You can go a long time with just about everything else and food is
swimming all around you.
I never really go anywhere and I still carry a fairly good supply of
bottled water, mostly to give to kayakers (see we did get back on
topic) ;-).