On 9/3/2015 11:23 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 09:27:11 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 07:53:36 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 07:27:00 -0400, John H.
wrote:


We came home to a puddle in the basement the week before last. It has become a major
problem. Apparently a pinhole leak has been going for quite some time, maybe a year
or more. The sheetrock walls between the kitchen and powder room have been soaked.
There is also a lot of moisture under the tiles in the kitchen around the same areas.
The wall covering (sheetrock) will have to come down, along with the kitchen cabinets
on that side. Plus, the tile floor and tile above the counter will have to be taken
out. The entire kitchen floor will be retiled.

If that wasn't enough, the leak has also caused a lot of mold. If the mold under the
tile cannot be cleaned, then the subfloor will also have to be replaced.

So, that's where things stand now. We're waiting on the insurance to approve the
estimate for the mold removal.

But, the trip to Shenandoah River State Park was a blast. Floating down the
Shenandoah on a tube has got to be one of the most relaxing activities going.

===

Bad news John, sorry to hear that. Is it a pipe leak? It's really
important to stay ahead of the mold issue.

A pin hole leak:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...s/P1010565.jpg

The mold issue is the big problem now. It's in the walls, behind the baseboard, and
most likely on the subfloor under the ceramic tile in the powder room and kitchen.
The moisture detector got readings through the tile. Most likely the tile and the
subfloor will need replacing. What a mess.

That may indicate a far more serious problem. You need to cut out that
section of pipe and see why it is leaking. You might find out there is
significant erosion of all of the pipe. That is somewhat unusual up
there where you have good water but people in the Cape around Wayne's
place have had a lot of serious pin holing problems in copper pipe.
The last I heard it was still in court with the plaintiffs fighting
about whether it was bad pipe, bad water or an electrical problem.
All of that made me a plastic pipe fan although there is some copper
in here that has been OK for 50 years.



The previous house we had up here was built in the late 1960's and we
had mucho problems with pin hole leaks developing in the copper piping.
Seems like every weekend I was down in the basement cutting out and
replacing a section or putting solder on a leak. I was told that in
the time period the house was built a lot of the copper piping was
coming from Japan and, for some reason, just about all the Japanese
copper developed pinhole leaks a few years down the line after
installation. We ended up replacing just about everything with new
copper. That was back in the late 70's. My daughter now lives in that
house (has for the past 15 years) and hasn't had any further problems
with leaks.

One benefit of copper over pvc in supply lines is that copper has
natural antimicrobial properties. If you are always running a lot of
water through PVC it probably doesn't matter much but long periods of
no use .. like in Wayne's case ... it could. Never liked the idea of
long, plastic tubing runs to a refrigerator's automatic ice maker
either. Not enough use.

wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 12:24:09 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 10:38:21 -0400, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 9/3/2015 10:24 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 09:21:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 9/3/2015 7:53 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 07:27:00 -0400, John H.
wrote:


We came home to a puddle in the basement the week before last. It has become a major
problem. Apparently a pinhole leak has been going for quite some time, maybe a year
or more. The sheetrock walls between the kitchen and powder room have been soaked.
There is also a lot of moisture under the tiles in the kitchen around the same areas.
The wall covering (sheetrock) will have to come down, along with the kitchen cabinets
on that side. Plus, the tile floor and tile above the counter will have to be taken
out. The entire kitchen floor will be retiled.

If that wasn't enough, the leak has also caused a lot of mold. If the mold under the
tile cannot be cleaned, then the subfloor will also have to be replaced.

So, that's where things stand now. We're waiting on the insurance to approve the
estimate for the mold removal.

But, the trip to Shenandoah River State Park was a blast. Floating down the
Shenandoah on a tube has got to be one of the most relaxing activities going.

===

Bad news John, sorry to hear that. Is it a pipe leak? It's really
important to stay ahead of the mold issue.


For sure. One of our neighbors in Florida had a major roof leak during
one of the hurricanes and they didn't address the water damage soon
enough. Mold set in and they ended up having to abandon the house and
have it razed.

One of our houses also had some serious water damage to the inside. The
roof didn't leak but the wind blew the main entry double doors open on
the first floor (they opened inward) and then all the rest of the
double doors on the first and second floor were blown open outward.
Wind swept rain throughout the house resulted. Fortunately, my nephew
(who is a contractor) was there and he immediately ripped up the rugs
and any wet floorboards on the second story and cutout any wet sheet
rock sections that he found throughout the house. The first floor was
all tile on a concrete slab, so no floor damage was done there. He let
everything dry out and then replaced the affected sections. Fortunately
we didn't have any mold issues. I understand that once it starts, it
can be a bitch to get rid of.

Well, I'll let you know. It has most definitely started. The big question is how hard
will it be to get off the subfloor under the tiles. If it can be dried and either
cleaned or sanded off, then that will be done. Otherwise the whole floor will need
replacing.

This sucks.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Does your house have a basement? If so, the wetness and mold may not
have traveled too far assuming your base floor is planks and not plywood.

The basement has a concrete floor. No mold there. The mold is in the walls under the
leak and, most likely, in the material under the ceramic tile in the kitchen and
bath. I'm not sure what that material is, depends on how much money the folks before
me spent on putting in the tile.

Mold may be a little over hyped. If you live in a place like Florida,
mold is just a fact of life and I seem to remember it being pretty hot
and humid in DC too.

I bet your weather reports list mold and pollen counts in the air.

All that said, you should mitigate the mold and remove the moisture
wherever possible but don't go nuts trying to get the last .01%
There is a spray that kills mold on the wood (not bleach) and removal
of any damaged wood should be done.
There is a chance that you can pop up the tile and save it but chances
are you will be buying tile. Labor is going to be at least as much as
the tile unless you do it yourself.
If you are willing to tackle it, check out the tile outlet stores for
odd lots, Most of the time you do not need a whole pallet of tile
finding a small batch is all you need. When we did our new bathroom,
we were able to get premium grade tile cheaper than the cheap crap at
Home Depot.

And Harbor Freight has a 10" tile saw that will work well for home use. Is
about $170 with blade. Sign up and get a 20% off coupon. Cheaper than
renting.

On 9/3/2015 3:35 PM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 12:30:14 -0400, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 9/3/2015 12:57 PM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 11:36:23 -0400, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 9/3/2015 12:24 PM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 10:38:21 -0400, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 9/3/2015 10:24 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 09:21:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 9/3/2015 7:53 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 07:27:00 -0400, John H.
wrote:


We came home to a puddle in the basement the week before last. It has become a major
problem. Apparently a pinhole leak has been going for quite some time, maybe a year
or more. The sheetrock walls between the kitchen and powder room have been soaked.
There is also a lot of moisture under the tiles in the kitchen around the same areas.
The wall covering (sheetrock) will have to come down, along with the kitchen cabinets
on that side. Plus, the tile floor and tile above the counter will have to be taken
out. The entire kitchen floor will be retiled.

If that wasn't enough, the leak has also caused a lot of mold. If the mold under the
tile cannot be cleaned, then the subfloor will also have to be replaced.

So, that's where things stand now. We're waiting on the insurance to approve the
estimate for the mold removal.

But, the trip to Shenandoah River State Park was a blast. Floating down the
Shenandoah on a tube has got to be one of the most relaxing activities going.

===

Bad news John, sorry to hear that. Is it a pipe leak? It's really
important to stay ahead of the mold issue.


For sure. One of our neighbors in Florida had a major roof leak during
one of the hurricanes and they didn't address the water damage soon
enough. Mold set in and they ended up having to abandon the house and
have it razed.

One of our houses also had some serious water damage to the inside. The
roof didn't leak but the wind blew the main entry double doors open on
the first floor (they opened inward) and then all the rest of the
double doors on the first and second floor were blown open outward.
Wind swept rain throughout the house resulted. Fortunately, my nephew
(who is a contractor) was there and he immediately ripped up the rugs
and any wet floorboards on the second story and cutout any wet sheet
rock sections that he found throughout the house. The first floor was
all tile on a concrete slab, so no floor damage was done there. He let
everything dry out and then replaced the affected sections. Fortunately
we didn't have any mold issues. I understand that once it starts, it
can be a bitch to get rid of.

Well, I'll let you know. It has most definitely started. The big question is how hard
will it be to get off the subfloor under the tiles. If it can be dried and either
cleaned or sanded off, then that will be done. Otherwise the whole floor will need
replacing.

This sucks.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Does your house have a basement? If so, the wetness and mold may not
have traveled too far assuming your base floor is planks and not plywood.

The basement has a concrete floor. No mold there. The mold is in the walls under the
leak and, most likely, in the material under the ceramic tile in the kitchen and
bath. I'm not sure what that material is, depends on how much money the folks before
me spent on putting in the tile.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Silly boy! I was referring to the base floor under the the kitchen sub
floor. Is the Harry "cant read" disease spreading?

There is a big difference between a 'combat' engineer and a 'construction' engineer!
I read 'base floor' as 'basement floor'. Keep in mind that I'm getting pretty old.

Above the joists is plywood. I don't know if any 'backerboard' was used between the
plywood and the ceramic tile.

I hope Harry's disease isn't spreading. But, it could be.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Apparently, "we" don't know the proper terms for the various flooring
components. Greg could help us out with that. My understanding is that
with sheet or tile flooring there is an intermediate floor laid for
purposes of strength, stability, and seam reinforcing.
Good luck with the project.

I think the intermediate floor material, if any, is a function of the money invested
in the tile floor. The mitigation technician (his words, not mine) said he's seen
ceramic tile glued to linoleum.

We have a concrete slab. Concrete cracks. About 3 years ago we got tired
of replacing cracked ceramic tiles, periodically. We removed all the
tile and carpet and had the slab properly prepared to receive good
quality porcelain tiles. Haven't had a single tile crack since. Knock on
wood.

That sounds like something worth looking into. Are porcelain tiles much more
expensive? I'd probably have to pay the difference in cost of tiles.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Ours was about $7 per SF. Labor is what cost you.

On 9/3/2015 3:39 PM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 12:32:38 -0400, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 9/3/2015 1:17 PM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 13:05:50 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 12:24:09 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 10:38:21 -0400, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 9/3/2015 10:24 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 09:21:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 9/3/2015 7:53 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 07:27:00 -0400, John H.
wrote:


We came home to a puddle in the basement the week before last. It has become a major
problem. Apparently a pinhole leak has been going for quite some time, maybe a year
or more. The sheetrock walls between the kitchen and powder room have been soaked.
There is also a lot of moisture under the tiles in the kitchen around the same areas.
The wall covering (sheetrock) will have to come down, along with the kitchen cabinets
on that side. Plus, the tile floor and tile above the counter will have to be taken
out. The entire kitchen floor will be retiled.

If that wasn't enough, the leak has also caused a lot of mold. If the mold under the
tile cannot be cleaned, then the subfloor will also have to be replaced.

So, that's where things stand now. We're waiting on the insurance to approve the
estimate for the mold removal.

But, the trip to Shenandoah River State Park was a blast. Floating down the
Shenandoah on a tube has got to be one of the most relaxing activities going.

===

Bad news John, sorry to hear that. Is it a pipe leak? It's really
important to stay ahead of the mold issue.


For sure. One of our neighbors in Florida had a major roof leak during
one of the hurricanes and they didn't address the water damage soon
enough. Mold set in and they ended up having to abandon the house and
have it razed.

One of our houses also had some serious water damage to the inside. The
roof didn't leak but the wind blew the main entry double doors open on
the first floor (they opened inward) and then all the rest of the
double doors on the first and second floor were blown open outward.
Wind swept rain throughout the house resulted. Fortunately, my nephew
(who is a contractor) was there and he immediately ripped up the rugs
and any wet floorboards on the second story and cutout any wet sheet
rock sections that he found throughout the house. The first floor was
all tile on a concrete slab, so no floor damage was done there. He let
everything dry out and then replaced the affected sections. Fortunately
we didn't have any mold issues. I understand that once it starts, it
can be a bitch to get rid of.

Well, I'll let you know. It has most definitely started. The big question is how hard
will it be to get off the subfloor under the tiles. If it can be dried and either
cleaned or sanded off, then that will be done. Otherwise the whole floor will need
replacing.

This sucks.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Does your house have a basement? If so, the wetness and mold may not
have traveled too far assuming your base floor is planks and not plywood.

The basement has a concrete floor. No mold there. The mold is in the walls under the
leak and, most likely, in the material under the ceramic tile in the kitchen and
bath. I'm not sure what that material is, depends on how much money the folks before
me spent on putting in the tile.

Mold may be a little over hyped. If you live in a place like Florida,
mold is just a fact of life and I seem to remember it being pretty hot
and humid in DC too.

I bet your weather reports list mold and pollen counts in the air.

All that said, you should mitigate the mold and remove the moisture
wherever possible but don't go nuts trying to get the last .01%
There is a spray that kills mold on the wood (not bleach) and removal
of any damaged wood should be done.
There is a chance that you can pop up the tile and save it but chances
are you will be buying tile. Labor is going to be at least as much as
the tile unless you do it yourself.
If you are willing to tackle it, check out the tile outlet stores for
odd lots, Most of the time you do not need a whole pallet of tile so
finding a small batch is all you need. When we did our new bathroom,
we were able to get premium grade tile cheaper than the cheap crap at
Home Depot.

The new tile, including installation, will be covered under the insurance. They will
not make an attempt to save the old tile - takes too much time and careful work.
They'll just bust it up and get it out. Then the floor can dry and the mold can be
tackled. The mold in the walls will go out with the sheetrock. There may be mold on
the back of some of the kitchen cabinets, but hopefully it can be cleaned off once
the cabinets are removed.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Yippee!

The *tile* will be covered, but not necessarily the material *under* the tile. Mold
mitigation is separate from water mitigation and requires it's own approval from the
insurance. I'm hoping there won't be a problem. Will find out tomorrow or maybe later
this evening. The estimate should hit the USAA later this afternoon.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

It's all how you word it. Claim water damage only. De-lamination, rot,
swelling, etc.

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 12:30:14 -0400, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 9/3/2015 12:57 PM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 11:36:23 -0400, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 9/3/2015 12:24 PM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 10:38:21 -0400, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 9/3/2015 10:24 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 09:21:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 9/3/2015 7:53 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 07:27:00 -0400, John H.
wrote:


We came home to a puddle in the basement the week before last. It has become a major
problem. Apparently a pinhole leak has been going for quite some time, maybe a year
or more. The sheetrock walls between the kitchen and powder room have been soaked.
There is also a lot of moisture under the tiles in the kitchen around the same areas.
The wall covering (sheetrock) will have to come down, along with the kitchen cabinets
on that side. Plus, the tile floor and tile above the counter will have to be taken
out. The entire kitchen floor will be retiled.

If that wasn't enough, the leak has also caused a lot of mold. If the mold under the
tile cannot be cleaned, then the subfloor will also have to be replaced.

So, that's where things stand now. We're waiting on the insurance to approve the
estimate for the mold removal.

But, the trip to Shenandoah River State Park was a blast. Floating down the
Shenandoah on a tube has got to be one of the most relaxing activities going.

===

Bad news John, sorry to hear that. Is it a pipe leak? It's really
important to stay ahead of the mold issue.


For sure. One of our neighbors in Florida had a major roof leak during
one of the hurricanes and they didn't address the water damage soon
enough. Mold set in and they ended up having to abandon the house and
have it razed.

One of our houses also had some serious water damage to the inside. The
roof didn't leak but the wind blew the main entry double doors open on
the first floor (they opened inward) and then all the rest of the
double doors on the first and second floor were blown open outward.
Wind swept rain throughout the house resulted. Fortunately, my nephew
(who is a contractor) was there and he immediately ripped up the rugs
and any wet floorboards on the second story and cutout any wet sheet
rock sections that he found throughout the house. The first floor was
all tile on a concrete slab, so no floor damage was done there. He let
everything dry out and then replaced the affected sections. Fortunately
we didn't have any mold issues. I understand that once it starts, it
can be a bitch to get rid of.

Well, I'll let you know. It has most definitely started. The big question is how hard
will it be to get off the subfloor under the tiles. If it can be dried and either
cleaned or sanded off, then that will be done. Otherwise the whole floor will need
replacing.

This sucks.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Does your house have a basement? If so, the wetness and mold may not
have traveled too far assuming your base floor is planks and not plywood.

The basement has a concrete floor. No mold there. The mold is in the walls under the
leak and, most likely, in the material under the ceramic tile in the kitchen and
bath. I'm not sure what that material is, depends on how much money the folks before
me spent on putting in the tile.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Silly boy! I was referring to the base floor under the the kitchen sub
floor. Is the Harry "cant read" disease spreading?

There is a big difference between a 'combat' engineer and a 'construction' engineer!
I read 'base floor' as 'basement floor'. Keep in mind that I'm getting pretty old.

Above the joists is plywood. I don't know if any 'backerboard' was used between the
plywood and the ceramic tile.

I hope Harry's disease isn't spreading. But, it could be.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Apparently, "we" don't know the proper terms for the various flooring
components. Greg could help us out with that. My understanding is that
with sheet or tile flooring there is an intermediate floor laid for
purposes of strength, stability, and seam reinforcing.
Good luck with the project.

I think the intermediate floor material, if any, is a function of the money invested
in the tile floor. The mitigation technician (his words, not mine) said he's seen
ceramic tile glued to linoleum.

We have a concrete slab. Concrete cracks. About 3 years ago we got tired
of replacing cracked ceramic tiles, periodically. We removed all the
tile and carpet and had the slab properly prepared to receive good
quality porcelain tiles. Haven't had a single tile crack since. Knock on
wood.

That sounds like something worth looking into. Are porcelain tiles much more
expensive? I'd probably have to pay the difference in cost of tiles.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 12:32:38 -0400, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 9/3/2015 1:17 PM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 13:05:50 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 12:24:09 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 10:38:21 -0400, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 9/3/2015 10:24 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 09:21:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 9/3/2015 7:53 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 07:27:00 -0400, John H.
wrote:


We came home to a puddle in the basement the week before last. It has become a major
problem. Apparently a pinhole leak has been going for quite some time, maybe a year
or more. The sheetrock walls between the kitchen and powder room have been soaked.
There is also a lot of moisture under the tiles in the kitchen around the same areas.
The wall covering (sheetrock) will have to come down, along with the kitchen cabinets
on that side. Plus, the tile floor and tile above the counter will have to be taken
out. The entire kitchen floor will be retiled.

If that wasn't enough, the leak has also caused a lot of mold. If the mold under the
tile cannot be cleaned, then the subfloor will also have to be replaced.

So, that's where things stand now. We're waiting on the insurance to approve the
estimate for the mold removal.

But, the trip to Shenandoah River State Park was a blast. Floating down the
Shenandoah on a tube has got to be one of the most relaxing activities going.

===

Bad news John, sorry to hear that. Is it a pipe leak? It's really
important to stay ahead of the mold issue.


For sure. One of our neighbors in Florida had a major roof leak during
one of the hurricanes and they didn't address the water damage soon
enough. Mold set in and they ended up having to abandon the house and
have it razed.

One of our houses also had some serious water damage to the inside. The
roof didn't leak but the wind blew the main entry double doors open on
the first floor (they opened inward) and then all the rest of the
double doors on the first and second floor were blown open outward.
Wind swept rain throughout the house resulted. Fortunately, my nephew
(who is a contractor) was there and he immediately ripped up the rugs
and any wet floorboards on the second story and cutout any wet sheet
rock sections that he found throughout the house. The first floor was
all tile on a concrete slab, so no floor damage was done there. He let
everything dry out and then replaced the affected sections. Fortunately
we didn't have any mold issues. I understand that once it starts, it
can be a bitch to get rid of.

Well, I'll let you know. It has most definitely started. The big question is how hard
will it be to get off the subfloor under the tiles. If it can be dried and either
cleaned or sanded off, then that will be done. Otherwise the whole floor will need
replacing.

This sucks.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Does your house have a basement? If so, the wetness and mold may not
have traveled too far assuming your base floor is planks and not plywood.

The basement has a concrete floor. No mold there. The mold is in the walls under the
leak and, most likely, in the material under the ceramic tile in the kitchen and
bath. I'm not sure what that material is, depends on how much money the folks before
me spent on putting in the tile.

Mold may be a little over hyped. If you live in a place like Florida,
mold is just a fact of life and I seem to remember it being pretty hot
and humid in DC too.

I bet your weather reports list mold and pollen counts in the air.

All that said, you should mitigate the mold and remove the moisture
wherever possible but don't go nuts trying to get the last .01%
There is a spray that kills mold on the wood (not bleach) and removal
of any damaged wood should be done.
There is a chance that you can pop up the tile and save it but chances
are you will be buying tile. Labor is going to be at least as much as
the tile unless you do it yourself.
If you are willing to tackle it, check out the tile outlet stores for
odd lots, Most of the time you do not need a whole pallet of tile so
finding a small batch is all you need. When we did our new bathroom,
we were able to get premium grade tile cheaper than the cheap crap at
Home Depot.

The new tile, including installation, will be covered under the insurance. They will
not make an attempt to save the old tile - takes too much time and careful work.
They'll just bust it up and get it out. Then the floor can dry and the mold can be
tackled. The mold in the walls will go out with the sheetrock. There may be mold on
the back of some of the kitchen cabinets, but hopefully it can be cleaned off once
the cabinets are removed.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Yippee!

The *tile* will be covered, but not necessarily the material *under* the tile. Mold
mitigation is separate from water mitigation and requires it's own approval from the
insurance. I'm hoping there won't be a problem. Will find out tomorrow or maybe later
this evening. The estimate should hit the USAA later this afternoon.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 13:41:00 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 9/3/2015 11:23 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 09:27:11 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 07:53:36 -0400, Wayne.B wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 07:27:00 -0400, John H.
wrote:


We came home to a puddle in the basement the week before last. It has become a major
problem. Apparently a pinhole leak has been going for quite some time, maybe a year
or more. The sheetrock walls between the kitchen and powder room have been soaked.
There is also a lot of moisture under the tiles in the kitchen around the same areas.
The wall covering (sheetrock) will have to come down, along with the kitchen cabinets
on that side. Plus, the tile floor and tile above the counter will have to be taken
out. The entire kitchen floor will be retiled.

If that wasn't enough, the leak has also caused a lot of mold. If the mold under the
tile cannot be cleaned, then the subfloor will also have to be replaced.

So, that's where things stand now. We're waiting on the insurance to approve the
estimate for the mold removal.

But, the trip to Shenandoah River State Park was a blast. Floating down the
Shenandoah on a tube has got to be one of the most relaxing activities going.

===

Bad news John, sorry to hear that. Is it a pipe leak? It's really
important to stay ahead of the mold issue.

A pin hole leak:

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l2...s/P1010565.jpg

The mold issue is the big problem now. It's in the walls, behind the baseboard, and
most likely on the subfloor under the ceramic tile in the powder room and kitchen.
The moisture detector got readings through the tile. Most likely the tile and the
subfloor will need replacing. What a mess.

That may indicate a far more serious problem. You need to cut out that
section of pipe and see why it is leaking. You might find out there is
significant erosion of all of the pipe. That is somewhat unusual up
there where you have good water but people in the Cape around Wayne's
place have had a lot of serious pin holing problems in copper pipe.
The last I heard it was still in court with the plaintiffs fighting
about whether it was bad pipe, bad water or an electrical problem.
All of that made me a plastic pipe fan although there is some copper
in here that has been OK for 50 years.



The previous house we had up here was built in the late 1960's and we
had mucho problems with pin hole leaks developing in the copper piping.
Seems like every weekend I was down in the basement cutting out and
replacing a section or putting solder on a leak. I was told that in
the time period the house was built a lot of the copper piping was
coming from Japan and, for some reason, just about all the Japanese
copper developed pinhole leaks a few years down the line after
installation. We ended up replacing just about everything with new
copper. That was back in the late 70's. My daughter now lives in that
house (has for the past 15 years) and hasn't had any further problems
with leaks.

One benefit of copper over pvc in supply lines is that copper has
natural antimicrobial properties. If you are always running a lot of
water through PVC it probably doesn't matter much but long periods of
no use .. like in Wayne's case ... it could. Never liked the idea of
long, plastic tubing runs to a refrigerator's automatic ice maker
either. Not enough use.


One of the things the plumber said was that periods of non-use were an issue. He said
he very seldom has seen leaks in cold water pipes. Almost always hot water pipes
which aren't used as much.

Maybe I should start watering the lawn with warm water and take four or five long
showers every day.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 13:38:14 -0500, Califbill billnews wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 12:24:09 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 10:38:21 -0400, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 9/3/2015 10:24 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 3 Sep 2015 09:21:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 9/3/2015 7:53 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 07:27:00 -0400, John H.
wrote:


We came home to a puddle in the basement the week before last. It has become a major
problem. Apparently a pinhole leak has been going for quite some time, maybe a year
or more. The sheetrock walls between the kitchen and powder room have been soaked.
There is also a lot of moisture under the tiles in the kitchen around the same areas.
The wall covering (sheetrock) will have to come down, along with the kitchen cabinets
on that side. Plus, the tile floor and tile above the counter will have to be taken
out. The entire kitchen floor will be retiled.

If that wasn't enough, the leak has also caused a lot of mold. If the mold under the
tile cannot be cleaned, then the subfloor will also have to be replaced.

So, that's where things stand now. We're waiting on the insurance to approve the
estimate for the mold removal.

But, the trip to Shenandoah River State Park was a blast. Floating down the
Shenandoah on a tube has got to be one of the most relaxing activities going.

===

Bad news John, sorry to hear that. Is it a pipe leak? It's really
important to stay ahead of the mold issue.


For sure. One of our neighbors in Florida had a major roof leak during
one of the hurricanes and they didn't address the water damage soon
enough. Mold set in and they ended up having to abandon the house and
have it razed.

One of our houses also had some serious water damage to the inside. The
roof didn't leak but the wind blew the main entry double doors open on
the first floor (they opened inward) and then all the rest of the
double doors on the first and second floor were blown open outward.
Wind swept rain throughout the house resulted. Fortunately, my nephew
(who is a contractor) was there and he immediately ripped up the rugs
and any wet floorboards on the second story and cutout any wet sheet
rock sections that he found throughout the house. The first floor was
all tile on a concrete slab, so no floor damage was done there. He let
everything dry out and then replaced the affected sections. Fortunately
we didn't have any mold issues. I understand that once it starts, it
can be a bitch to get rid of.

Well, I'll let you know. It has most definitely started. The big question is how hard
will it be to get off the subfloor under the tiles. If it can be dried and either
cleaned or sanded off, then that will be done. Otherwise the whole floor will need
replacing.

This sucks.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

Does your house have a basement? If so, the wetness and mold may not
have traveled too far assuming your base floor is planks and not plywood.

The basement has a concrete floor. No mold there. The mold is in the walls under the
leak and, most likely, in the material under the ceramic tile in the kitchen and
bath. I'm not sure what that material is, depends on how much money the folks before
me spent on putting in the tile.

Mold may be a little over hyped. If you live in a place like Florida,
mold is just a fact of life and I seem to remember it being pretty hot
and humid in DC too.

I bet your weather reports list mold and pollen counts in the air.

All that said, you should mitigate the mold and remove the moisture
wherever possible but don't go nuts trying to get the last .01%
There is a spray that kills mold on the wood (not bleach) and removal
of any damaged wood should be done.
There is a chance that you can pop up the tile and save it but chances
are you will be buying tile. Labor is going to be at least as much as
the tile unless you do it yourself.
If you are willing to tackle it, check out the tile outlet stores for
odd lots, Most of the time you do not need a whole pallet of tile
finding a small batch is all you need. When we did our new bathroom,
we were able to get premium grade tile cheaper than the cheap crap at
Home Depot.

And Harbor Freight has a 10" tile saw that will work well for home use. Is
about $170 with blade. Sign up and get a 20% off coupon. Cheaper than
renting.

Luckily, I won't have to worry about replacing the tile. That's the restoration
firm's job.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 12:29:47 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 11:23:58 -0400, wrote:

That is somewhat unusual up
there where you have good water but people in the Cape around Wayne's
place have had a lot of serious pin holing problems in copper pipe.

===

We turn off our water when we're away for any length of time but still
had our copper replaced with PVC after having one pinhole develop. The
plumbers around here do a lively business with PVC replacement and
they get to keep the copper as part of the deal. The theory du jour
is that the RO treatment plant changes the PH level of the water just
enough to make it corrosive. I never believed it until it happened to
us.

The other theories centered around the grade of the pipe and possible
electrolysis caused by improper grounding practices.
This has been going on around her for the 35 years I have been here.

They had the same deal in St Pete. One of the reasons I sold my condo
was the number of people who had their floors torn up to replace
leaking pipe. Mine wasn't done yet and I didn't want the issue to bite
me.

On Thu, 03 Sep 2015 12:57:28 -0400, John H.
wrote:


There is a big difference between a 'combat' engineer and a 'construction' engineer!
I read 'base floor' as 'basement floor'. Keep in mind that I'm getting pretty old.

Above the joists is plywood. I don't know if any 'backerboard' was used between the
plywood and the ceramic tile.


Typically you will actually have 2 layers of plywood or plywood and
backer if you are laying tile and these days they may also use a
membrane that will isolate the tile from the wood.
They even use a membrane on tile over concrete if the concrete is
green. That is mostly because they are not sure if the concrete is
going to crack. (mostly a function of the "build it fast" mentality)
I had terrazzo on my floor that was pristine 40 years later so we
trusted the floor.
You can also use "flex" mortar but it is about $15 a bag more than
regular thin set.
It is all I use because mortar is the cheapest thing you buy.
The only down side is it sticks too good. You are not getting that
tile back up if you chip one..