On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 10:03:12 -0500, Justan Olphart wrote:

On 9/27/2015 10:47 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 9/27/2015 11:35 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
Several of my neighbors have had huge problems with Volvo outdrives.

Here's another Volvo horror story:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f54/the-truth-about-volvo-ips-drive-technology-153683.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email &utm_campaign=Feed%3A+cruisersforumnews+%28Cruiser s+Forum+-+Emails%29


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I have been an IPS owner since 2007. It is truly a wonderful
technology since it makes docking such a simple procedure. When this
system was first introduced there wasn’t anything like it on the
market and the additional benefits of better performance and better
fuel economy made it sound like an absolute winner.

My current boat still has IPS; in fact it has three such units. So
over time is this system worth the extra money? Because this is a
really expensive technology.

Today you can get similar docking solutions using joystick controls
that combine the twin engine control with bow and stern thrusters. It
works the same and makes docking a simple operation just like the IPS.

Much can go wrong with this system because the IPS system is basically
a gearbox, much like an outdrive, that hangs below the water line and
any leaks will immediately render the drives unusable, needing a
complete rebuilt. Looking at the user manuals, that came with the
boat, there is no mention of any specific maintenance recommendations
for the IPS (other than oil changes and anodes replacements), no
mention of how long the drive seals would last and when it they would
need to be replaced.

Well, I learned that the hard way. My boat was purchased new in 2009
but was actually built in 2008. So by 2014 my drive seals were six
years old. I keep my boat in the Caribbean and have always kept it in
the water. I would haul it once a year for a bottom clean, paint and
propspeed treatment. Well in 2014 I hauled the boat. Insurance
companies love that solution, especially when your boat is located in
a hurricane zone. I hauled my boat late May and launched it again
early November. We did the usual complete service of the engines, as
described in the manual. That included replacing the gear oil in the
IPS and replacing the gear oil filters. The most important is to make
sure to replace all the outside anodes protecting the IPS drives. The
anodes are made of aluminum and there are two per drive plus two
regular zincs for the boats other equipment protection. We also
replaced the engine block anodes. Pretty standard stuff that was part
of the recommended preventive maintenance as described in the Volvo
operating manuals.

Excited about a new season in the Caribbean we took the boat out for a
cruise. As always I check all oil levels and inspected the oil before
any trip. When we arrived at our destination and before we were ready
for the next leg of our trip I checked all the oil levels once again.
This time I found the oil in all the IPS drives looking "milky" a sign
of water getting into the gearbox. I decided to return home and haul
the boat. After some pressure testing it appears we had a leak around
the shaft seals (and possible also on the upper seals) on EACH of the
three drives. And since we have evidence of water in the oil in ALL
three propulsion units it’s clear that the seals on all units have
failed ALL at once. Now how can that be?

We contacted Volvo for some guidance. That was the first sign of
things to come. Volvo was completely unresponsive. I called them and
emailed their customer solution center. NO response. Then I started
talking to authorized Volvo technicians, guys with many years in the
business. Well they basically told me that all the drive seals should
be replaced every five years or you will have a complete failure. Now
I understand why it’s not in the manual or why Volvo wouldn’t reply.
This is pretty expensive and very intensive work. I would have been a
hard sell to reveal this information up front before I bought the IPS
drives.

Now comes the fun part. In order to completely rebuild these drives
because as soon as oil gets in the drives they have to be completely
disassembled and all gears cleaned, seals replaced, clutch packs
replaced and everything realigned and pressure tested. Now only a
certified Volvo technician can do the job and for this job there are
dozens of specialized tools that only they have. These tools are
extremely expensive and so are all the parts so needless to say this
job cost a small fortune. To make matters worse they were no reliable
Volvo technicians available in the Caribbean. I reside in BVI and the
other IPS boats on the island gets maintained by Florida Volvo
technicians which are hard to get and expensive to fly down. My
technicians flew down from Annapolis where I live in the summer. They
spent several weeks getting the drives rebuilt, re-aligned and tested.
Of cause all the specialized tools and parts had to be flown down
there and back. So at the end we were looking at a bill in excess of
$30K to fix.

Looking at an average use of the boat of 100 hours a year (which is
high) and saving maybe 20% in fuel there is just no way this
technology can pay for itself and is worth it.

Volvo finally did get back to me because my dealer contacted them and
told them too. They didn’t do a thing and were completely unwilling to
even admit that these seals should be changed and at what frequency. I
think the fact that I hauled the boat for six month may have made the
situation worse (because of the heat). But even when asked if I could
store the boat on land for six month in the Caribbean they just said
they didn’t see why not.

My plan is to get rid of this boat and the technology. I want the old
prop and shaft solution and with some help of a couple of thrusters
and the new computerized joystick solutions I will have a far better
and cheaper solution for the future. At least I can find someone to
work on my boat without the need for expensive tools and training.

IPS is very cool solution, but it is an over-engineered solution to a
pretty simple problem that has worked very well for many many years;
prop and shaft.
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Interesting. I never warmed up to the IPS drive concept. Nothing beats
a pair of props on a shaft with cutlass bearings, simple (and
adjustable) shaft seals and a pair of rudders. Conventional thrusters
can make life easier when docking but aren't absolutely necessary.

To me (and obviously to the guy who wrote the above) the IPS system
re-introduces all the drawbacks and problems of outdrives.



Europeans love complicated technology. In particular, I love the way
they solved the American emissions problem. :-)

My wife's Jetta TDI has no emission problems!
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 15:52:09 -0400, wrote:

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 14:59:53 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/27/2015 2:21 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 11:47:27 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

To me (and obviously to the guy who wrote the above) the IPS system
re-introduces all the drawbacks and problems of outdrives.

I understand real big boats use inboards but outboards offer an
elegant simplicity that is hard to beat.
I see boats approaching 40 feet with outboards. Granted they use 2, 3
or even 4 but that is great redundancy for guys running offshore.

It is like the B-52 pilot who radioed in that he had lost an engine.
The tower asked if he was declaring an emergency and he said, "no I
think we will make it back on seven)


I agree with multiple outboards on large, go-fast, center console type
fishing boats. See a lot of them in the 30'-40' range. They are
designed to get out to fishing spots quickly to get more actual fishing
time.

But for a cruising boat of that size nothing beats a couple of diesels
spinning big props. Well maintained they will go for several thousand
hours of hard use.

When I went and looked at the ads for the IPS, Volvo shows them on go
fast boats, going real fast. They are still gas and when I read the
article in Yachting magazine, they made a big thing of the
maintenance.

I think the rule of thumb for a gas engine I/O is
about 1,000 to 1,500 hours before you have to start thinking of
re-powering or a rebuild.
Don't know what a modern, 4 stroke outboard
is good for.
There are plenty of 4 strokes with several thousand hours on them and
still going. I put over 3000 on mine and it was still running strong
when I sold it.,
The engine was not even a concern of mine I got rid of it because I
was not interested in fixing the other stuff that was getting old.
The commercial operator here has over 6000 on his Zekes with no power
head work.

The 1984 Grand Banks we had with the little 120 hp diesel
had almost 7,000 hours on it when we were first looking at it. We had
a survey done and a mechanical inspection and I expressed my concern
about the number of engine hours. Both the surveyor and the mechanic
said, "it's just about broken in".

No argument a diesel is a long running and efficient power plant. That
is why truckers use them.


And serious fifth-wheel RV haulers!
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 15:53:16 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Sep 2015 14:21:52 -0400, wrote:

To me (and obviously to the guy who wrote the above) the IPS system
re-introduces all the drawbacks and problems of outdrives.

I understand real big boats use inboards but outboards offer an
elegant simplicity that is hard to beat.

===

The IPS drives are designed for big boats even though the underwater
structure looks more like an outdrive. That's the problem: They have
the same maintenance issues and requirements as an outdrive but you
have to haul the boat and use Volvo techs, tools, parts, etc.

I think that was my point. The less you have in the water all the
time, the better off you are ... unless cost is no object.

The Yachting article also pointed out something interesting. Evidently
it is not that hard to scrape one of these things off and if you have
to send divers looking for it, you might as well just buy a new one.
If it is a simple recovery, it isn't bad but if they call it "salvage"
the price is ridiculous.