On 1/8/2016 1:24 PM, Justan Olphart wrote:
On 1/8/2016 9:28 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/8/2016 8:30 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:01:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

So much for the
argument that maintaining a gun registry with chain of custody records
is not technically feasible.

===

Let's say for the sake of reasonable discussion that such a system
could be created, debugged and implemented for 1 billion dollars.
That's a lot of money but very little can be created by the federal
government for less than that.

By your estimation, how many crimes would be prevented or solved with
such a system? My own estimate is maybe a couple of hundred at best,
perhaps much less. That puts the cost/benefit ratio at maybe 5 to 10
million per incident, and quite possibly a lot more since it would
perpetuate yet another bureauracracy.

All that to try and get a handle on drug dealers and rap musicians
killing each other?



First, the system already exists. A new one doesn't need to be
developed. If the IAFIS and now the improved NGI system can handle
not only fingerprint files but also images, criminal records, etc., it
certainly should be able to accept a background check event and a record
of sale or transfer of a firearm.

The part I think would be beneficial but causes the most angst among
people who distrust government is the record of sale/transfer thing that
creates a chain of custody. I know you disagree with the concept
and I respect that but from a logic point of view, having those records
and being able to trace a gun back to the owner who did *not* report the
sale/transfer or report it as stolen would go a long way towards
thoughtless transfers. It and a universal background check is about all
you can do and they have absolutely *no* affect on anyone's ability or
right to own or bear arms. Things change over the years and sometimes
when an issue takes on a different color some modifications as to how it
is dealt with may become necessary for the general public good. Again,
these would have *no* negative affect on anyone other than taking five
minutes to fill out a simple form and
record it. I just don't understand what the big deal is ... unless of
course your are absolutely convinced that the "government" is out to get
you.
The chain of custody exists. The federal government requires the dealers
to maintain the umpteen thousand records of sales, subject to audit by
the federal government. Make sense?

Those are dealer sales only via FFL. No records of sale or transfer is
required by most states, as far as I know. MA seems to be one of the
few that maintains a record of private transfers, but it's almost
voluntary. You are supposed to report it on-line but there's no way of
determining if everyone does. However, if ever used in a crime and
found, it would be traced back to the original purchaser (via FFL)
unless transfers *have* been reported as required. That is the
motivation to comply.

On 1/8/2016 4:24 PM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/8/2016 1:24 PM, Justan Olphart wrote:
On 1/8/2016 9:28 AM, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 1/8/2016 8:30 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:01:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

So much for the
argument that maintaining a gun registry with chain of custody records
is not technically feasible.

===

Let's say for the sake of reasonable discussion that such a system
could be created, debugged and implemented for 1 billion dollars.
That's a lot of money but very little can be created by the federal
government for less than that.

By your estimation, how many crimes would be prevented or solved with
such a system? My own estimate is maybe a couple of hundred at best,
perhaps much less. That puts the cost/benefit ratio at maybe 5 to 10
million per incident, and quite possibly a lot more since it would
perpetuate yet another bureauracracy.

All that to try and get a handle on drug dealers and rap musicians
killing each other?



First, the system already exists. A new one doesn't need to be
developed. If the IAFIS and now the improved NGI system can handle
not only fingerprint files but also images, criminal records, etc., it
certainly should be able to accept a background check event and a record
of sale or transfer of a firearm.

The part I think would be beneficial but causes the most angst among
people who distrust government is the record of sale/transfer thing that
creates a chain of custody. I know you disagree with the concept
and I respect that but from a logic point of view, having those records
and being able to trace a gun back to the owner who did *not* report the
sale/transfer or report it as stolen would go a long way towards
thoughtless transfers. It and a universal background check is about all
you can do and they have absolutely *no* affect on anyone's ability or
right to own or bear arms. Things change over the years and sometimes
when an issue takes on a different color some modifications as to how it
is dealt with may become necessary for the general public good. Again,
these would have *no* negative affect on anyone other than taking five
minutes to fill out a simple form and
record it. I just don't understand what the big deal is ... unless of
course your are absolutely convinced that the "government" is out to get
you.
The chain of custody exists. The federal government requires the dealers
to maintain the umpteen thousand records of sales, subject to audit by
the federal government. Make sense?

Those are dealer sales only via FFL. No records of sale or transfer is
required by most states, as far as I know. MA seems to be one of the
few that maintains a record of private transfers, but it's almost
voluntary. You are supposed to report it on-line but there's no way of
determining if everyone does. However, if ever used in a crime and
found, it would be traced back to the original purchaser (via FFL)
unless transfers *have* been reported as required. That is the
motivation to comply.

The good guys will comply with whatever laws exist.
If only they could find a way to track guns in the possession of the bad
guys who really don't want you to know?

On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 16:24:20 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Those are dealer sales only via FFL. No records of sale or transfer is
required by most states, as far as I know. MA seems to be one of the
few that maintains a record of private transfers, but it's almost
voluntary. You are supposed to report it on-line but there's no way of
determining if everyone does. However, if ever used in a crime and
found, it would be traced back to the original purchaser (via FFL)
unless transfers *have* been reported as required. That is the
motivation to comply.

It is certainly the fear they use to enforce it but I doubt there are
very many guns that actually get traced unless a president gets shot.
It is like that Maryland deal where they are keeping a fired casing
from every gun sold. Has that ever caught a criminal?
I think there is just a warehouse somewhere outside of Baltimore with
a half a ton of useless once fired brass

On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:01:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

"The Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification System,

I think that if they actually had a good computerized fingerprint
system, it might call into question the infallibility of fingerprints.
I wonder how many matches they will have with different people and how
many points match if they did a global search of the database.
There are a number of cases where "experts" have positively matched
fingerprints and then found out they were wrong. This is really more
of an art than a science and there is a lot of opinion in the
identifications. The examiner decides which points match, which don't
and which are inconclusive.

If this does get melded with a number of other biometric parameters it
would be much more useful but fingerprints alone are usually only
valuable when you have the print and an otherwise implicated suspect.
The first step might be to get better samples of everyone's
fingerprints because those smudgy cards they have now are far from
perfect. That is from the fingerprint guy at my sheriffs office. He
said that when they actually submit these to the FBI for something,
about half of them are rejected.

The up side of the computer is that it takes a lot of the "art" out of
this discipline and adds more impartial science. The computer will not
look at them with an opinion in mind.

On 1/8/2016 11:58 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:01:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

"The Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification System,

I think that if they actually had a good computerized fingerprint
system, it might call into question the infallibility of fingerprints.
I wonder how many matches they will have with different people and how
many points match if they did a global search of the database.
There are a number of cases where "experts" have positively matched
fingerprints and then found out they were wrong. This is really more
of an art than a science and there is a lot of opinion in the
identifications. The examiner decides which points match, which don't
and which are inconclusive.

A computer does it, at least initially. Inquiry results are
almost instantaneous. They don't have a bunch of FBI examiners looking
through books anymore. :-)


If this does get melded with a number of other biometric parameters it
would be much more useful but fingerprints alone are usually only
valuable when you have the print and an otherwise implicated suspect.
The first step might be to get better samples of everyone's
fingerprints because those smudgy cards they have now are far from
perfect. That is from the fingerprint guy at my sheriffs office. He
said that when they actually submit these to the FBI for something,
about half of them are rejected.

The most recent ones I've had done were done digitally, not with ink.
Up here and until about a year or so ago, your digital fingerprint was
taken every time you purchased a gun from an FFL. It was transmitted
electronically at the gun shop while you waited and the approval of the
sale was almost immediate. The purpose was to ensure it was really
*you* and that you had an active and current gun permit ... which also
means you had had a background check. The state replaced this system
with a "pin" number assigned to you. You have to provide it as well as
present your gun permit in order to purchase a firearm.


The up side of the computer is that it takes a lot of the "art" out of
this discipline and adds more impartial science. The computer will not
look at them with an opinion in mind.

On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 12:21:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/8/2016 11:58 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:01:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

"The Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification System,

I think that if they actually had a good computerized fingerprint
system, it might call into question the infallibility of fingerprints.
I wonder how many matches they will have with different people and how
many points match if they did a global search of the database.
There are a number of cases where "experts" have positively matched
fingerprints and then found out they were wrong. This is really more
of an art than a science and there is a lot of opinion in the
identifications. The examiner decides which points match, which don't
and which are inconclusive.

A computer does it, at least initially. Inquiry results are
almost instantaneous. They don't have a bunch of FBI examiners looking
through books anymore. :-)



The question then is how good is the computer and how many hits do
they get on a partial set of prints?

If this does get melded with a number of other biometric parameters it
would be much more useful but fingerprints alone are usually only
valuable when you have the print and an otherwise implicated suspect.
The first step might be to get better samples of everyone's
fingerprints because those smudgy cards they have now are far from
perfect. That is from the fingerprint guy at my sheriffs office. He
said that when they actually submit these to the FBI for something,
about half of them are rejected.

The most recent ones I've had done were done digitally, not with ink.
Up here and until about a year or so ago, your digital fingerprint was
taken every time you purchased a gun from an FFL. It was transmitted
electronically at the gun shop while you waited and the approval of the
sale was almost immediate. The purpose was to ensure it was really
*you* and that you had an active and current gun permit ... which also
means you had had a background check. The state replaced this system
with a "pin" number assigned to you. You have to provide it as well as
present your gun permit in order to purchase a firearm.



Sorry, I guess I am old ;-)
The only tome I have had a digital fingerprint was at Busch Gardens
and they had problems with it. I kept being rejected.
Maybe my fingers are a little different than the general public.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/finger%20wound.jpg

My wife said "good thing you don't have an I phone"

On 1/8/2016 7:39 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 12:21:27 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 1/8/2016 11:58 AM, wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:01:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

"The Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification System,

I think that if they actually had a good computerized fingerprint
system, it might call into question the infallibility of fingerprints.
I wonder how many matches they will have with different people and how
many points match if they did a global search of the database.
There are a number of cases where "experts" have positively matched
fingerprints and then found out they were wrong. This is really more
of an art than a science and there is a lot of opinion in the
identifications. The examiner decides which points match, which don't
and which are inconclusive.

A computer does it, at least initially. Inquiry results are
almost instantaneous. They don't have a bunch of FBI examiners looking
through books anymore. :-)



The question then is how good is the computer and how many hits do
they get on a partial set of prints?

If this does get melded with a number of other biometric parameters it
would be much more useful but fingerprints alone are usually only
valuable when you have the print and an otherwise implicated suspect.
The first step might be to get better samples of everyone's
fingerprints because those smudgy cards they have now are far from
perfect. That is from the fingerprint guy at my sheriffs office. He
said that when they actually submit these to the FBI for something,
about half of them are rejected.

The most recent ones I've had done were done digitally, not with ink.
Up here and until about a year or so ago, your digital fingerprint was
taken every time you purchased a gun from an FFL. It was transmitted
electronically at the gun shop while you waited and the approval of the
sale was almost immediate. The purpose was to ensure it was really
*you* and that you had an active and current gun permit ... which also
means you had had a background check. The state replaced this system
with a "pin" number assigned to you. You have to provide it as well as
present your gun permit in order to purchase a firearm.



Sorry, I guess I am old ;-)
The only tome I have had a digital fingerprint was at Busch Gardens
and they had problems with it. I kept being rejected.
Maybe my fingers are a little different than the general public.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/finger%20wound.jpg

My wife said "good thing you don't have an I phone"


Maybe you shouldn't sandpaper your fingertips. ;-)

On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 20:02:30 -0500, Justan Olphart
wrote:

On 1/8/2016 7:39 PM, wrote:

Sorry, I guess I am old ;-)
The only tome I have had a digital fingerprint was at Busch Gardens
and they had problems with it. I kept being rejected.
Maybe my fingers are a little different than the general public.

http://gfretwell.com/ftp/finger%20wound.jpg

My wife said "good thing you don't have an I phone"


Maybe you shouldn't sandpaper your fingertips. ;-)

Hole saw

It is a lot better now tho but my fingerprint will never be the same.

On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:01:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

"The Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification System, or IAFIS,
is a national fingerprint and criminal history system that responds to
requests 24 hours a day, 365 days a year to help our local, state, and
federal partners—and our own investigators—solve and prevent crime and
catch criminals and terrorists. IAFIS provides automated fingerprint
search capabilities, latent search capability, electronic image storage,
and electronic exchange of fingerprints and responses.

What is included in IAFIS: Not only fingerprints, but corresponding
criminal histories; mug shots; scars and tattoo photos; physical
characteristics like height, weight, and hair and eye color; and
aliases. The system also includes civil fingerprints, mostly of
individuals who have served or are serving in the U.S. military or have
been or are employed by the federal government. The fingerprints and
criminal history information are submitted voluntarily by state, local,
and federal law enforcement agencies.

How big it is: IAFIS is the largest criminal fingerprint database in the
world, housing the fingerprints and criminal histories for more than 70
million subjects in the criminal master file, along with more than 34
million civil prints. Included in our criminal database are fingerprints
from 73,000 known and suspected terrorists processed by the U.S. or by
international law enforcement agencies who work with us."

IAFIS was launched in 1999. It's replacement, NGI became fully
operational in 2014.

Wow. Over a 100 million fingerprints and records on file and instantly
available to federal, state and local law enforcement. So much for the
argument that maintaining a gun registry with chain of custody records
is not technically feasible.

I've not heard anyone say a gun registry as described was not technically feasible.
Was that someone here? The question seemed to be 'was it worthwhile'? Hell, I figure
it's about as worthwhile as a registry of model airplanes. My 10 year old grandson is
now registered. What a joke.

I wonder if IAFIS also includes all the former military whose fingerprints reside
somewhere. Seems like 70 million would be a small number if that's the case.
--

Ban idiots, not guns!

On 1/8/2016 12:58 PM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jan 2016 06:01:47 -0500, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

"The Integrated Automated Fingerprint Identification System, or IAFIS,
is a national fingerprint and criminal history system that responds to
requests 24 hours a day, 365 days a year to help our local, state, and
federal partners—and our own investigators—solve and prevent crime and
catch criminals and terrorists. IAFIS provides automated fingerprint
search capabilities, latent search capability, electronic image storage,
and electronic exchange of fingerprints and responses.

What is included in IAFIS: Not only fingerprints, but corresponding
criminal histories; mug shots; scars and tattoo photos; physical
characteristics like height, weight, and hair and eye color; and
aliases. The system also includes civil fingerprints, mostly of
individuals who have served or are serving in the U.S. military or have
been or are employed by the federal government. The fingerprints and
criminal history information are submitted voluntarily by state, local,
and federal law enforcement agencies.

How big it is: IAFIS is the largest criminal fingerprint database in the
world, housing the fingerprints and criminal histories for more than 70
million subjects in the criminal master file, along with more than 34
million civil prints. Included in our criminal database are fingerprints
from 73,000 known and suspected terrorists processed by the U.S. or by
international law enforcement agencies who work with us."

IAFIS was launched in 1999. It's replacement, NGI became fully
operational in 2014.

Wow. Over a 100 million fingerprints and records on file and instantly
available to federal, state and local law enforcement. So much for the
argument that maintaining a gun registry with chain of custody records
is not technically feasible.

I've not heard anyone say a gun registry as described was not technically feasible.
Was that someone here? The question seemed to be 'was it worthwhile'? Hell, I figure
it's about as worthwhile as a registry of model airplanes. My 10 year old grandson is
now registered. What a joke.

I wonder if IAFIS also includes all the former military whose fingerprints reside
somewhere. Seems like 70 million would be a small number if that's the case.


According to the website I got the info from, yes, it does. Not sure
when it started though. The IADIS system was put in place in 1999.
Could be that our fingerprint records are not included.