Rick wrote in message link.net...
basskisser wrote:

nitrogen helps tires run cooler


Only because when nitrogen is used instead of air, the pressure to
temperature ratio is more linear.

You really ought to stop kissing fish, it has diminished your powers of
reason.

rick

Well, then, please explain to the world how in the HELL nitrogen will
make a tire run cooler. You apparently don't know squat about the Laws
of Gases. Now, Im again telling you that the ONLY reason is that the
pressure to temperature ratio is more linear. Do you refute that? If
so, do tell why. Now, I suspect that you don't UNDERSTAND my answer,
and that is the reason that you don't think it's correct. So, allow me
to explain. The nitrogen doesn't expand as much as air, for a given
temperature change. Therefore, the nitrogen doesn't increase tire
pressure as much as air, when the temperature starts increasing. Thus,
a tire is less likely to expand, because of temperature increase, to
the point of rupture. BUT, the nitrogen does NOTHING to keep the
temperature of the tire from increasing, or decreasing for that
matter.

basskisser wrote:

basskisser wrote:

nitrogen helps tires run cooler

Only because when nitrogen is used instead of air, the pressure to
temperature ratio is more linear.

Rick wrote:

You really ought to stop kissing fish, it has diminished your powers of
reason.

Basskisser whined:

Well, then, please explain to the world how in the HELL nitrogen will
make a tire run cooler.

It doesn't. The tire heats the gas by conduction and radiation as it
flexes. The gas doesn't heat the tire. Only reducing tire flexure will
make the tire run cooler. It doesn't matter one single molecule what the
gas filler is.


Now, Im again telling you that the ONLY reason is that the
pressure to temperature ratio is more linear. Do you refute that?

Yes, along with many generations of scientifically literate people, I do
refute that bonehead statement. Nitrogen follows the gas laws just as
every other gas. Your interpretation of natural phenomena and physics
will not change the gas laws for one gas in one application.

The nitrogen doesn't expand as much as air, for a given
temperature change. Therefore, the nitrogen doesn't increase tire
pressure as much as air, when the temperature starts increasing.

Please refer to the gas laws. You cannot rewrite them as much as you
would like to believe you have.

BUT, the nitrogen does NOTHING to keep the temperature of the tire
from increasing, or decreasing for that matter.

Well done, you are beginning to get it. However:

You started this by writing:

nitrogen helps tires run cooler

Only because when nitrogen is used instead of air, the pressure to
temperature ratio is more linear.

Try and keep your story consistent. That statement reads that nitrogen
keeps tires cool because it doesn't expand like air. Both statements are
false.

You may believe the gas laws are suspended for automotive applications
but do try at least to keep track of your misapprehensions.

I think most of this nonsense about nitrogen in tires not expanding as
much as air comes from the fact that few people really understand the
properties of gases. There is a little phrase in the gas laws that
refers to "phase change" ... that is where the followers of the myth may
be running aground - (boating content).

Liquid nitrogen will vaporize to produce a volume of gas that occupies
about 700 times that of the liquid. Liquid oxygen will vaporize to
produce a gas that occupies around 860 times the volume.

Vaporization is the phase change. Once the liquid has evaporated the
resultant gas, nitrogen, oxygen, or water vapor, will follow the gas
laws and when the correct law is applied (there are several) the
properties of those gases are very predictable and if you understood
them you would see that the properties of those gases are identical in
their behavior under the conditions which race car teams and trailer
boaters operate.

Rick

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...


. You apparently don't know squat about the Laws
of Gases.

Can you please state which law you are referring to?

I am familiar with Boyles Law, and Charles Law, the "ideal gas" law. I am
not aware of any gas law that supports your claims.

Now, Im again telling you that the ONLY reason is that the
pressure to temperature ratio is more linear.

More linear?

The basic ideal gas law is PV=nRT.
P = pressure
V = volume
n = the number of moles (a measure of the number of atoms)
R is a constant (8.3144 exp-7)
T = temperature in absolute units ("room temperature" is ~300 K)

How do you get more linear than that?


Do you refute that?

Yes

If so, do tell why.

It is generally accepted that all gases obey the ideal gas law if you stay
away from their condensation temperature. Air is mostly nitrogen, then
oxygen, carbon dioxide, and traces of many other gases including water.

Unless you have artificially introduced liquid water into the tire, or
inflated the tire with air super saturated with moisture, the typical
operating temperature of the tire will sufficienty above the dew point of
the air inside such that the air (complete with water vapor) will obey the
ideal gas law.

The nitrogen doesn't expand as much as air, for a given
temperature change.

Which gas are you saying doesn't obey the gas laws: air or nitrogen?

What temperature and pressure are you making this claim for?


Rod

On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 13:37:32 -0800, "Rod McInnis"
wrote:


"basskisser" wrote in message
. com...


. You apparently don't know squat about the Laws
of Gases.

Can you please state which law you are referring to?

I am familiar with Boyles Law, and Charles Law, the "ideal gas" law. I am
not aware of any gas law that supports your claims.

Now, Im again telling you that the ONLY reason is that the
pressure to temperature ratio is more linear.

More linear?

The basic ideal gas law is PV=nRT.
P = pressure
V = volume
n = the number of moles (a measure of the number of atoms)
R is a constant (8.3144 exp-7)
T = temperature in absolute units ("room temperature" is ~300 K)

How do you get more linear than that?


Do you refute that?

Yes
[...]

This is just too funny watching basskisser get himself all wrapped up in
another boneheaded scientific argument. Every time he types something
he confirms he doesn't understand the world around him. I can't wait to
see how he tries to weasel out of this one without admitting he's wrong.
Stay tuned.

Steve

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 13:37:32 -0800, "Rod McInnis"
wrote:


"basskisser" wrote in message
. com...


. You apparently don't know squat about the Laws
of Gases.

Can you please state which law you are referring to?

I am familiar with Boyles Law, and Charles Law, the "ideal gas" law. I am
not aware of any gas law that supports your claims.

Now, Im again telling you that the ONLY reason is that the
pressure to temperature ratio is more linear.

More linear?

The basic ideal gas law is PV=nRT.
P = pressure
V = volume
n = the number of moles (a measure of the number of atoms)
R is a constant (8.3144 exp-7)
T = temperature in absolute units ("room temperature" is ~300 K)

How do you get more linear than that?


Do you refute that?

Yes
[...]

This is just too funny watching basskisser get himself all wrapped up in
another boneheaded scientific argument. Every time he types something
he confirms he doesn't understand the world around him. I can't wait to
see how he tries to weasel out of this one without admitting he's wrong.
Stay tuned.

Steve

Please refute my statements, or shut up. Quit stalking me.

"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
It is generally accepted that all gases obey the ideal gas law if you stay
away from their condensation temperature.

Not true. Unless you introduce nitrogen to the tire under ideal
conditions, which would entail a vacuum process first. Do you really
think that people are going to do that, when all they need is a larger
tire?

Air is mostly nitrogen, then
oxygen, carbon dioxide, and traces of many other gases including water.

Bingo, you're starting to get it. Water.

Unless you have artificially introduced liquid water into the tire, or
inflated the tire with air super saturated with moisture, the typical
operating temperature of the tire will sufficienty above the dew point of
the air inside such that the air (complete with water vapor) will obey the
ideal gas law.

Again, unless introduced under ideal conditions, there WILL be water
vapor.

The nitrogen doesn't expand as much as air, for a given
temperature change.

Which gas are you saying doesn't obey the gas laws: air or nitrogen?

Niether.

What temperature and pressure are you making this claim for?

Operating range of the tire.

Rick you are a ****i## college educated idiot all in Christ world that was
asked was a method to keep the tires cooler nitrogen will period. You get on
here and act like an ass! If I could get to you there are some physics
lessons I like to show you.
Ron K
"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...
basskisser wrote:

basskisser wrote:

nitrogen helps tires run cooler

Only because when nitrogen is used instead of air, the pressure to
temperature ratio is more linear.

Rick wrote:

You really ought to stop kissing fish, it has diminished your powers of
reason.

Basskisser whined:

Well, then, please explain to the world how in the HELL nitrogen will
make a tire run cooler.

It doesn't. The tire heats the gas by conduction and radiation as it
flexes. The gas doesn't heat the tire. Only reducing tire flexure will
make the tire run cooler. It doesn't matter one single molecule what the
gas filler is.


Now, Im again telling you that the ONLY reason is that the
pressure to temperature ratio is more linear. Do you refute that?

Yes, along with many generations of scientifically literate people, I do
refute that bonehead statement. Nitrogen follows the gas laws just as
every other gas. Your interpretation of natural phenomena and physics
will not change the gas laws for one gas in one application.

The nitrogen doesn't expand as much as air, for a given
temperature change. Therefore, the nitrogen doesn't increase tire
pressure as much as air, when the temperature starts increasing.

Please refer to the gas laws. You cannot rewrite them as much as you
would like to believe you have.

BUT, the nitrogen does NOTHING to keep the temperature of the tire
from increasing, or decreasing for that matter.

Well done, you are beginning to get it. However:

You started this by writing:

nitrogen helps tires run cooler

Only because when nitrogen is used instead of air, the pressure to
temperature ratio is more linear.

Try and keep your story consistent. That statement reads that nitrogen
keeps tires cool because it doesn't expand like air. Both statements are
false.

You may believe the gas laws are suspended for automotive applications
but do try at least to keep track of your misapprehensions.

I think most of this nonsense about nitrogen in tires not expanding as
much as air comes from the fact that few people really understand the
properties of gases. There is a little phrase in the gas laws that
refers to "phase change" ... that is where the followers of the myth may
be running aground - (boating content).

Liquid nitrogen will vaporize to produce a volume of gas that occupies
about 700 times that of the liquid. Liquid oxygen will vaporize to
produce a gas that occupies around 860 times the volume.

Vaporization is the phase change. Once the liquid has evaporated the
resultant gas, nitrogen, oxygen, or water vapor, will follow the gas
laws and when the correct law is applied (there are several) the
properties of those gases are very predictable and if you understood
them you would see that the properties of those gases are identical in
their behavior under the conditions which race car teams and trailer
boaters operate.

Rick

On 29 Oct 2003 04:27:31 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

Please refute my statements, or shut up. Quit stalking me.

lol. Stalking you? I didn't even respond to you. You're so stupid you
can't even follow a thread.

Steve

On 29 Oct 2003 04:33:04 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
It is generally accepted that all gases obey the ideal gas law if you stay
away from their condensation temperature.

Not true. Unless you introduce nitrogen to the tire under ideal
conditions, which would entail a vacuum process first. Do you really
think that people are going to do that, when all they need is a larger
tire?

Air is mostly nitrogen, then
oxygen, carbon dioxide, and traces of many other gases including water.

Bingo, you're starting to get it. Water.

It's water VAPOR you moron, a gas. It obeys the gas laws until it
condenses or sublimates. Are you saying that's what happens inside a
hot tire?

Unless you have artificially introduced liquid water into the tire, or
inflated the tire with air super saturated with moisture, the typical
operating temperature of the tire will sufficienty above the dew point of
the air inside such that the air (complete with water vapor) will obey the
ideal gas law.

Again, unless introduced under ideal conditions, there WILL be water
vapor.

Proof you don't know the first thing about high school physics if you
think water vapor in air causes it not follow the gas laws. You do
realize tha if you put nitrogen in a tire, chances are you'll have some
water vapor in there also.

Steve

"Rick" wrote in message
ink.net...
Mark Browne wrote:

Yes, but now the others on this group have a better understanding of the
factors involved.

I am not going to bother to run the numbers but the partial pressure of
any "normal" quantity of water vapor in a tire is not going to change
the tire pressure by an amount easily measured by anyone outside a
laboratory. It will have no significant influence.

Moisture will however contribute to corrosion and oxidation at elevated
temperatures in an oxygen bearing atmosphere. How much of a factor this
is in an application where tires are changed every few minutes anyway is
debatable.

I think your racer/writer/engineer friend might be disappointed when he
fails to see much, if any, measurable difference in his tire pressure.

Rick

Rick,
I believe that what you are neatly trying to side-step in your consideration
is the presence of liquid water. If all we were talking about is water
vapor, even at 100% humidity, then I would completely agree that you are
right.

Unfortunately there *can* be liquid water trapped inside the tire. Some of
this comes from tire mounting compound, some from air compressors without
suitable dryers, some from water inside the tire. This trapped water inside
the tire can be standing on the surface, or inside the rubber.

It is rather difficult to make a blanket statement about how much effect
each source can contribute. This makes an unassailable mathematical analysis
equally difficult. Not to worry - others have done it and I have read the
reports. In a Formula or NASCAR setting moisture can raise tire pressure
about 4 PSI in the corners. This is enough to mess up a finely tuned race
car chassis.

Whatever *it* is, either it works, or it does not. If *it* does not make
cars go faster or safer, most people don't put a lot of time and money into
it. Real race teams that have real physicists and engineers on their staff
go to considerable effort to control the presence of water inside the tire.
Tire moisture *is* a significant problem in racing; people worry about going
into a corner at 200 miles an hour and having their car go squirrelly in the
middle of the turn.

I spend a fair amount of time working around race tracks and see a lot of
people shoot their mouths off about how things *should* work. The nice thing
about racing is that most of this stuff gets sorted out on the track. If you
would like to field a car and fill the tires with normal air to prove that
there is no difference, by all means go ahead. The nice thing about racing
is that people that know what they are talking about go fast, and clueless
people watch 'em go by. It all gets sorted out when the rubber hits the
road!

Mark Browne