We (Hyannis YC) just finished our annual regatta and I'd like to ask for
comments on our experience with the 420 class. We expected about
60-70 boats but by Thursday (first race Friday), there were 122 boats
registered.

Race management in their wisdom decided to split the field up into four
colors: Red, Blue, Green, Yellow of 30 or 31 boats in each fleet. The plan
was to have a round robin of three races. In the first race the first start
would be Red and Blue; in the second start ten minutes later would be Green
and Yellow. This would reduce each start to a maximum of 62 boats. A
manageable number!

In the second race, the first start would be Red and Green; the second start
ten minutes later Blue and Yellow. In the third race the remaining
permutation would be used.

At the end of the round robin of either three or six races in the first day,
the entire fleet would be divided into a Gold and a Silver fleet for the
rest of the regatta. No scores from the qualifying round would carry over
into the final series.

At the end of the day, the first 15 boats from each fleet would be moved
into the Gold fleet for the finals. The others would go into the Silver
fleet.

If fact, we only had time for three races on Day 1 but it was a complete
round robin on which to base the separation.

IMHO management didn't design this round robin correctly. It would have been
fairer to take the top 60 boats from the three qualifying race
cumulative scores. Picking the top fifteen was unfair to someone who
happened to be in a fleet of top sailors but who would do well against the
average boats in the other fleets.

Is there a better way of separating out the players in a three day regatta?

ISAF has an Appendix KE that gives guidance to specifying the SIs for large
fleets (see http://www.sailing.org/rrs2001/KE011102.pdf). This uses a
reassignment of each boat to a different fleet each night (see Appendix C of
Appendix KE!). This mixes up the contestants so they all will sail against
each other. The selection into the Gold/Silver fleets is however done on the
basis of overall score at the end of the qualifiers. Since the fleets change
every night, it wouldn't be possible to take the first so many members of
any particular fleet.

Our results are at
http://www.hyannisyachtclub.org/quic...ts.asp?NavID=9
that has a list of the qualifying and final scores.

Ed
--
Edward E.L. Mitchell
Web: www.racesail.org
Phone: (508)771-0806
500 Ocean St., Unit 134,
Hyannis, MA 02601

Hello Ed,

Yes, it would be statistically fairer to pick the top 60, but only if the
round-robin were complete; i.e. every boat sailed against every other boat.
OTOH, it is highly likely that the top boats finished on top overall by the
end of the regatta. Probably some mid-fleet boats could have been in the
"wrong" fleet as would have transpired more round-robin races.

I was at a Thistle regatta that used this 4-group method for the whole
regatta, where the final ranking was determined by the round-robin. In this
case the groups were "seeded" by placing equal numbers of known hot sailors
into each group. Ties were broken by head-to-head wins.

Brent
www.bensonsails.com

From: "Edward Mitchell"
Newsgroups: rec.boats.racing
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:47:20 -0400
Subject: How to qualify 120 boats for final Gold/Silver fleets

We (Hyannis YC) just finished our annual regatta and I'd like to ask for
comments on our experience with the 420 class. We expected about
60-70 boats but by Thursday (first race Friday), there were 122 boats
registered.

Race management in their wisdom decided to split the field up into four
colors: Red, Blue, Green, Yellow of 30 or 31 boats in each fleet. The plan
was to have a round robin of three races. In the first race the first start
would be Red and Blue; in the second start ten minutes later would be Green
and Yellow. This would reduce each start to a maximum of 62 boats. A
manageable number!

In the second race, the first start would be Red and Green; the second start
ten minutes later Blue and Yellow. In the third race the remaining
permutation would be used.

At the end of the round robin of either three or six races in the first day,
the entire fleet would be divided into a Gold and a Silver fleet for the
rest of the regatta. No scores from the qualifying round would carry over
into the final series.

At the end of the day, the first 15 boats from each fleet would be moved
into the Gold fleet for the finals. The others would go into the Silver
fleet.

If fact, we only had time for three races on Day 1 but it was a complete
round robin on which to base the separation.

IMHO management didn't design this round robin correctly. It would have been
fairer to take the top 60 boats from the three qualifying race
cumulative scores. Picking the top fifteen was unfair to someone who
happened to be in a fleet of top sailors but who would do well against the
average boats in the other fleets.

Is there a better way of separating out the players in a three day regatta?

ISAF has an Appendix KE that gives guidance to specifying the SIs for large
fleets (see http://www.sailing.org/rrs2001/KE011102.pdf). This uses a
reassignment of each boat to a different fleet each night (see Appendix C of
Appendix KE!). This mixes up the contestants so they all will sail against
each other. The selection into the Gold/Silver fleets is however done on the
basis of overall score at the end of the qualifiers. Since the fleets change
every night, it wouldn't be possible to take the first so many members of
any particular fleet.

Our results are at
http://www.hyannisyachtclub.org/quic...ts.asp?NavID=9
that has a list of the qualifying and final scores.

Ed
--
Edward E.L. Mitchell
Web: www.racesail.org
Phone: (508)771-0806
500 Ocean St., Unit 134,
Hyannis, MA 02601

Brent,

We were able to get three races in the first day so this completed a full
round robin of the four fleets. Everybody sailed against everybody else.

Ed


"Brent Benson" wrote in message
...
Hello Ed,

Yes, it would be statistically fairer to pick the top 60, but only if the
round-robin were complete; i.e. every boat sailed against every other
boat.
OTOH, it is highly likely that the top boats finished on top overall by
the
end of the regatta. Probably some mid-fleet boats could have been in the
"wrong" fleet as would have transpired more round-robin races.

I was at a Thistle regatta that used this 4-group method for the whole
regatta, where the final ranking was determined by the round-robin. In
this
case the groups were "seeded" by placing equal numbers of known hot
sailors
into each group. Ties were broken by head-to-head wins.

Brent
www.bensonsails.com

From: "Edward Mitchell"
Newsgroups: rec.boats.racing
Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2003 09:47:20 -0400
Subject: How to qualify 120 boats for final Gold/Silver fleets

We (Hyannis YC) just finished our annual regatta and I'd like to ask for
comments on our experience with the 420 class. We expected about
60-70 boats but by Thursday (first race Friday), there were 122 boats
registered.

Race management in their wisdom decided to split the field up into four
colors: Red, Blue, Green, Yellow of 30 or 31 boats in each fleet. The
plan
was to have a round robin of three races. In the first race the first
start
would be Red and Blue; in the second start ten minutes later would be
Green
and Yellow. This would reduce each start to a maximum of 62 boats. A
manageable number!

In the second race, the first start would be Red and Green; the second
start
ten minutes later Blue and Yellow. In the third race the remaining
permutation would be used.

At the end of the round robin of either three or six races in the first
day,
the entire fleet would be divided into a Gold and a Silver fleet for the
rest of the regatta. No scores from the qualifying round would carry
over
into the final series.

At the end of the day, the first 15 boats from each fleet would be moved
into the Gold fleet for the finals. The others would go into the Silver
fleet.

If fact, we only had time for three races on Day 1 but it was a complete
round robin on which to base the separation.

IMHO management didn't design this round robin correctly. It would have
been
fairer to take the top 60 boats from the three qualifying race
cumulative scores. Picking the top fifteen was unfair to someone who
happened to be in a fleet of top sailors but who would do well against
the
average boats in the other fleets.

Is there a better way of separating out the players in a three day
regatta?

ISAF has an Appendix KE that gives guidance to specifying the SIs for
large
fleets (see http://www.sailing.org/rrs2001/KE011102.pdf). This uses a
reassignment of each boat to a different fleet each night (see Appendix
C of
Appendix KE!). This mixes up the contestants so they all will sail
against
each other. The selection into the Gold/Silver fleets is however done on
the
basis of overall score at the end of the qualifiers. Since the fleets
change
every night, it wouldn't be possible to take the first so many members
of
any particular fleet.

Our results are at
http://www.hyannisyachtclub.org/quic...ts.asp?NavID=9
that has a list of the qualifying and final scores.

Ed
--
Edward E.L. Mitchell
Web: www.racesail.org
Phone: (508)771-0806
500 Ocean St., Unit 134,
Hyannis, MA 02601

"Edward Mitchell" wrote in message
...

..........Snip
At the end of the round robin of either three or six races in the first
day,
the entire fleet would be divided into a Gold and a Silver fleet for the
rest of the regatta. No scores from the qualifying round would carry over
into the final series.

At the end of the day, the first 15 boats from each fleet would be moved
into the Gold fleet for the finals. The others would go into the Silver
fleet.

If fact, we only had time for three races on Day 1 but it was a complete
round robin on which to base the separation.

IMHO management didn't design this round robin correctly. It would have
been
fairer to take the top 60 boats from the three qualifying race
cumulative scores. Picking the top fifteen was unfair to someone who
happened to be in a fleet of top sailors but who would do well against the
average boats in the other fleets.

Is there a better way of separating out the players in a three day
regatta?
............End Snip

I think your suggestion is by far the most fair, it is quite possible a 16th
placed boat in one fleet would consistantly beat, and be faster than, a 1st
placed boat in another fleet, let alone one of the top 15 others.

As the series was a complete round robin this would have been fair to all,
and the gold and silver fleets should have been decided on overall scores
not places in each fleet. Even if each fleet was seeded I still think they
should have gone for the overall placing and not placing in fleet, otherwise
whats the point of having 2 fleets race together, it would have been easier
to have 4 starts of 30ish boats if it was to be decided that way.

Great to see such a large turnout, best be prepared for future events and
have a system in place before hand, or set a maximum number of entries, but
then again we dont want to have to stop anybody racing who wants to......

Roger

Roger Battersby
UK Dinghy Racing http://www.ukdinghyracing.com