I agree with every point you made, except the fact that JD Power is skewing
the questions (which I agree, can be done on a survey) to get a
predetermined response. JD Powers is selling a product that will show the
manufacturer how the owners perceive their product to be as far as quality.
It does not matter if the answer is good or bad, the companies still are
interested in "customer perception". While a good response makes for a
great advertising plus, a bad response is even more important to them. If
the company is making a better mousetrap, but the customer does not perceive
it to be, then they have a problem which can be easily solved. This is why
we now have auto dealers so interested in how your service work was
performed by the dealer. Dealers get paid on customer perception of the
service call.

If customer perception of a quality problem is real, the manufacture would
rather hear about it from JD Powers than when their sales decrease. JD
Powers is creating a product and selling it, but the product is not a biased
survey that will allow them to say they are #1 on the JD Powers survey. The
product JD Powers is selling is an unbiased survey of the customers
perception of the product and the dealers network to service the product.
The minute the companies or the consumer believe the survey is biased they
have nothing to sell.

I believe you have seen other companies who will give you a survey to
highlight a companies benefits, but JD Powers is not one of them.



"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
If you go to JD Powers web site they have reviewed many different models
and
products ( http://www.jdpower.com/cc ). If the survey was controlled
by
the manufacturer, I would not have expected Sea Ray to come in number 1,
and
Bayliner and Maxum to be next to the last, since they are all owned by

Ok.

From the top.

JD Powers does not directly compare products. They collect and compare
"Customer Satisfaction Surveys". Can we agree on that? If so, on to point
two.
If not, let me know.

Point two: None of the people they are surveying are directly comparing
two or
more products either, (in most cases). They own a new brand X car, boat,
motorcycle, Frisbee, or what not and they get a survey. These people have
no
idea based on actual usage experience how their product compares to the
competition.
(They probably think their product is either the best, or the best deal at
the
time they buy it.) Can we agree that the survey respondents are, in the
vast
majority of cases, not comparing two products? If so, on to point three.
If
not, let me know.

Point Three: Powers assembles rankings based not on how the products
actually
compare, but on how many bubbling, glowing, happy-owner responses it gets
on
the various products. Can we agree on this? If so, on to point four.

Point Four: The nature of the questions that are asked in the survey will
influence
the type of responses that come in. Take
a product with a known defect in, say, the "on" switch. The failure rate
is
50%, and the factory is hustling to do recalls as fast as possible. You
want
that product to do poorly? You ask, "How would you rate the reliability of
the
On switch?" You want that product to show pretty well? Don't ask about the
reliablity of the On switch, ask whether the factory and dealer have been
quick
to respond when repairs are needed.

Throughout the entire process, JD Powers is creating a product and selling
it.

Oh, puh-lease. When I "participated" in the Yamaha survey, I had 50+
years of actual usage experience with various brands of outboard
motors. So, I presume, do many other purchasers. I doubt 225 hp
outboards of any brand are bought by firs-time boaters.

And you are going to be able to accurately compare the total ownership
experience of the brand new outboard you just got, with the Johnson Sea Horse
you sold 45 years ago? You don't have enough time with the current product, and
you have forgotten about the old one. Besides, and this is an important
besides, people are going to use Powers survey to draw conclusions about the
relative quality between products. Current products sold new. Do you suppose
the brand of outboard you haven't owned since the 1960's is still the same
motor today? Not better or worse? If you own a 2003 Brand X motor, you cannot
speak from first hand experience about owning a 2003 Brand Y.

Luckily, the survey doesn't ask you to compare your outboard with other new
outboards- but the questions about how satisfied you might be can be posed in
such a way that various manufacturers will do very well, based on particular
product characteristics.

A number of the questions had to do with the dealer and how well or
how poorly it performed.


As always.

Chuck,

Flames aside, my question remains unanswered. Realize you have no obligation
to defend your position, but IMO if everyone included in the survey pays for
the survey all are entitled to a result.

If Evinrude, Yamaha, and Mercury ALL pay for a survey there must be a ranking
at the end of the survey. In this case Evinrude wins, no?

If the above is true, how do you explain your premise? Under the scenario you
described no one would fail to be first, no?

I suspect you may have reached an incorrect conclusion on this issue, senor.
Comment?

Butch

Gould 0738 wrote:
Oh, puh-lease. When I "participated" in the Yamaha survey, I had 50+
years of actual usage experience with various brands of outboard
motors. So, I presume, do many other purchasers. I doubt 225 hp
outboards of any brand are bought by firs-time boaters.

And you are going to be able to accurately compare the total ownership
experience of the brand new outboard you just got, with the Johnson Sea Horse
you sold 45 years ago?

I wasn't asked about "total ownership experience" in the survey I took.
I was asked why I bought a Yamaha, whether the dealer took the time to
explain the features, whether I got a shop tour, a complete demo,
whether I was "pleased" with the way the engine was running, with the
sound levels, with the fuel burn, with the performance, et cetera.

I certainly am in a position to "accurately compare" my treatment at the
dealership and the experiences with my first 50 hours of engine use with
similar experiences over the last 15 years or so.



You don't have enough time with the current product, and
you have forgotten about the old one.

Nope. Not only do I remember my experiences with the Mercs I owned over
the last decade or so, I have journals to remind me. Sorry. And while it
is true that at the time of the survey I only had 50 hours on the
engine, it was enough time to respond to early ownership questions.

The survey is not meant to do anything but compare consumers perception of
the product, but the survey is not biased towards any one manufacturer. If
that was so only one person would pay for the results, they want everyone to
pay, even if they did not come in favorable. That is the way for them to
improve the quality of the product, service and in educating the consumer as
to the features and benefits of the product.

I think you are confusing JD Powers with some other companies. As far as
Consumer Reports, they try to do an unbiased report, but because the people
doing the report are using an extremely limited number of products to test,
and the testers are not necessary knowledgeable about the product, most
people do not hold CR testing as accurate reflection of the real world use
of the product or of the quality control of the product being tested.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Oh, puh-lease. When I "participated" in the Yamaha survey, I had 50+
years of actual usage experience with various brands of outboard
motors. So, I presume, do many other purchasers. I doubt 225 hp
outboards of any brand are bought by firs-time boaters.

And you are going to be able to accurately compare the total ownership
experience of the brand new outboard you just got, with the Johnson Sea
Horse
you sold 45 years ago? You don't have enough time with the current
product, and
you have forgotten about the old one. Besides, and this is an important
besides, people are going to use Powers survey to draw conclusions about
the
relative quality between products. Current products sold new. Do you
suppose
the brand of outboard you haven't owned since the 1960's is still the same
motor today? Not better or worse? If you own a 2003 Brand X motor, you
cannot
speak from first hand experience about owning a 2003 Brand Y.

Luckily, the survey doesn't ask you to compare your outboard with other
new
outboards- but the questions about how satisfied you might be can be posed
in
such a way that various manufacturers will do very well, based on
particular
product characteristics.

A number of the questions had to do with the dealer and how well or
how poorly it performed.


As always.

Chuck,

Flames aside, my question remains unanswered. Realize you have no obligation
to defend your position, but IMO if everyone included in the survey pays for
the survey all are entitled to a result.

If Evinrude, Yamaha, and Mercury ALL pay for a survey there must be a ranking
at the end of the survey. In this case Evinrude wins, no?

If the above is true, how do you explain your premise? Under the scenario
you
described no one would fail to be first, no?

I suspect you may have reached an incorrect conclusion on this issue, senor.
Comment?

Butch


Powers surveys for a couple of different objectives.

First, if you sign up with JD Powers to survey your recently delivered
customers (or more likely, the manufacturer will do so), you will get a report
reflecting what the surveys of your specific customers said. And you will pay.
And nobody else will know what your customers said.

For this kind of statistic to be meaningful to a business, one has to know how
the numbers compare to the competition, but the comparison numbers that are
furnished for comparison are typically expressed as an aggregate......(or they
were 10-15 years ago when I used to get the reports of customer surveys)

Second, you can contract with JD Powers to conduct a "survey" showing how your
trademark compares to others in the industry as far as customer satisfaction
and perception of quality goes. Only the contracting company will pay for such
a survey. Any guesses how the results will turn out?

In any survey, you can control the answers you will get by the way you ask the
questions.

Again, look at that Cobalt boat survey.
Very typical.

Cobalt is considered the best runabout in the industry. It is the most
expensive, well built boat in it's class. Why wouldn't it get the number
one rating? What is so surprising about that? As I said, you are always
spotting black helicopters popping up everywhere you look.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Chuck,

Flames aside, my question remains unanswered. Realize you have no
obligation
to defend your position, but IMO if everyone included in the survey pays
for
the survey all are entitled to a result.

If Evinrude, Yamaha, and Mercury ALL pay for a survey there must be a
ranking
at the end of the survey. In this case Evinrude wins, no?

If the above is true, how do you explain your premise? Under the
scenario
you
described no one would fail to be first, no?

I suspect you may have reached an incorrect conclusion on this issue,
senor.
Comment?

Butch


Powers surveys for a couple of different objectives.

First, if you sign up with JD Powers to survey your recently delivered
customers (or more likely, the manufacturer will do so), you will get a
report
reflecting what the surveys of your specific customers said. And you will
pay.
And nobody else will know what your customers said.

For this kind of statistic to be meaningful to a business, one has to know
how
the numbers compare to the competition, but the comparison numbers that
are
furnished for comparison are typically expressed as an aggregate......(or
they
were 10-15 years ago when I used to get the reports of customer surveys)

Second, you can contract with JD Powers to conduct a "survey" showing how
your
trademark compares to others in the industry as far as customer
satisfaction
and perception of quality goes. Only the contracting company will pay for
such
a survey. Any guesses how the results will turn out?

In any survey, you can control the answers you will get by the way you ask
the
questions.

Again, look at that Cobalt boat survey.
Very typical.

Cobalt is considered the best runabout in the industry. It is the most
expensive, well built boat in it's class. Why wouldn't it get the number
one rating? What is so surprising about that? As I said, you are always
spotting black helicopters popping up everywhere you look.

Are you genuinely dense, or merely argumentive?

I recommended that you look at the Cobalt report for lack of objective format.
Has nothing to do with whether in your opinion Cobalt is the "best" runabout.

Is that what this is all about? You're an insecure Cobalt owner?

No, I am not a Cobalt owner, but I might be insecure and that might be the
reason I am taking a firm stand without any facts. I have not read "the
Cobalt Report" where can I get one? The only report I have seen is the one
on their web site, and I did not see anything that would suggest it was
designed to show off Cobalts strengths.

J.D. Power and Associates Reports:
Boat Owner Satisfaction Shows Year-Over-Year Increase


Bennington, Cobalt, Correct Craft, Crownline, Grady-White, Ranger and Sea
Ray
Rank Highest in Overall Satisfaction in Seven Major Boat Segments

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: October 30, 2003


WESTLAKE VILLAGE, Calif.—Boat owners’ overall satisfaction with their new
boat shows a year-over-year increase, with two of the larger-sized-boat
segments—express cruiser and coastal fishing—showing the greatest increase
in product satisfaction, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2003
Boat Competitive Information StudySM released today.

The study covers seven segments: fiberglass bass boats, small runabouts
(16-19 feet), large runabouts (20-29 feet), express cruisers (24-33 feet),
coastal fishing (17-28 feet), pontoons and ski/wakeboard boats. These seven
segments represent a large majority of the total number of power boats sold
in the United States. In addition to providing an analysis of product
satisfaction and quality problems, the study measures several product
factors, including the boat’s exterior styling and craftsmanship; various
features offered by each boat brand; helm and instrument panel; how well the
boat rides and handles; comfort and convenience items; engine and propulsion
system performance; seats; and ease of maintenance.

"The fact that satisfaction has increased across all seven boat segments
surveyed, and increased significantly in a few, is a very good sign that
many more boat manufacturers are beginning to place a premium on satisfying
their customers," said Frank Forkin, partner at J.D. Power and Associates.
"Those boat companies savvy enough to understand the link between customer
satisfaction and financial indicators such as consumer loyalty and advocacy
have the best chance of being successful in the very competitive powerboat
business sector."

Though the actual number of problems per boat has remained fairly consistent
from prior years, consumer perceptions regarding the quality of boats has
improved as more and more consumers indicate they had fewer problems than
they had anticipated.

"This may be due, in part, to sales staff working closer with consumers to
better manager customer expectations," Forkin said.

One area where boat manufacturers can increase overall customer satisfaction
is in the dealership experience, and in particular, the sales and service
process. Boat owners consistently report lower levels of satisfaction with
the sales and service experience than do their counterparts purchasing new
automobiles or motorcycles. Among boat owners who took their boat in for
service, 28 percent had to take it back a second time, with a small
percentage actually reporting their boat was returned with a new problem
caused by the repair shop.

"Boat owners who have to take their boat to the service shop are probably
not very happy," said Eric Sorensen, director of the marine practice at J.D.
Power and Associates. "But, the problem is compounded if they have to take
it back because the problem wasn’t fixed properly the first time, or if it
takes longer than expected to get their boat back on the water."

Among individual boat brands receiving a J.D. Power and Associates award for
customer satisfaction, six repeat as the highest-ranked boat brands in their
segment, with Ranger (fiberglass bass boat), Cobalt (large runabout) and
Grady-White (coastal fishing) leading their respective segments for the
third consecutive year. Correct Craft (ski/wake), Bennington (pontoon) and
Sea Ray (express cruiser) rank highest in their respective segments for the
second straight year. Crownline ranks highest in the small runabout segment.

Fiberglass bass boat segment

Ranger ranks highest in the fiberglass bass boat segment for the third
consecutive year, receiving high marks for exterior, maintenance and
features. For a second consecutive year, Triton and Skeeter, respectively,
closely follow Ranger in the segment rankings.

Small runabout segment

With a substantial year-over-year improvement in overall satisfaction,
Crownline receives strong marks in the small runabout segment for the boat’s
exterior and ride and handling. Chaparral and Four Winns, respectively,
follow Crownline in the segment rankings.

Large runabout segment

Cobalt leads the large runabout segment in every major factor for all major
boat satisfaction components measured, with particularly high marks for
exterior styling and quality. Crownline, which shows a large year-over-year
customer satisfaction improvement, and Sea Ray, respectively, follow Cobalt
in the segment rankings.

Express cruiser boat segment

Sea Ray ranks highest among express cruiser boats for a second consecutive
year. Sea Ray, which makes the largest year-over-year customer satisfaction
improvement among cruisers, receives high ratings from customers for areas
including ride and handling, exterior, and safety and maintenance.

Coastal fishing boat segment

Grady-White ranks highest in the coastal fishing boat segment for the third
consecutive year. Grady-White performs particularly well for the boat’s
exterior and engine and propulsion. Following Grady-White in the rankings
are Boston Whaler and Scout Boats, respectively. Boston Whaler shows a
remarkable year-over-year improvement in customer satisfaction.

Pontoon boat segment

For the second consecutive year, Bennington ranks highest in the pontoon
boat segment Bennington’s success in the pontoon segment is attributed to
strong performance for features, maintenance, safety and warranty. Manitou
and Premier closely follow Bennington in the rankings. Odyssey makes a
dramatic year-over-year overall satisfaction improvement.

Ski/wakeboard segment

Correct Craft performs well in every major factor of overall satisfaction in
the ski/wakeboard segment. Correct Craft receives very high scores in engine
and propulsion, maintenance and boat warranty coverage. Malibu follows
Correct Craft in overall satisfaction.

For the first time in the study, consumers were asked if in the future they
would continue boating as a recreational activity. Nearly all, 96 percent,
indicate they would do so.

"Given the ever-growing number of leisure activities available to consumers,
this is certainly good news for the boating industry," Sorensen said.

The 2003 Boat Competitive Information Study is based on responses from
10,734 consumers who purchased a new 2002 or 2003 model-year boat between
January 2002 and February 2003. Seventy boat brands are included in the
study.

A more comprehensive listing of results by boat brand can be found online at
the J.D. Power Consumer Center at
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/boats/boatratings.jsp

Headquartered in Westlake Village, Calif., J.D. Power and Associates is an
ISO 9001-registered global marketing information services firm operating in
key business sectors including market research, forecasting, consulting,
training and customer satisfaction. Media e-mail contact:
or

No advertising or other promotional use can be made of the information in
this release without the express prior written consent of J.D. Power and
Associates.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Cobalt is considered the best runabout in the industry. It is the most
expensive, well built boat in it's class. Why wouldn't it get the number
one rating? What is so surprising about that? As I said, you are always
spotting black helicopters popping up everywhere you look.

Are you genuinely dense, or merely argumentive?

I recommended that you look at the Cobalt report for lack of objective
format.
Has nothing to do with whether in your opinion Cobalt is the "best"
runabout.

Is that what this is all about? You're an insecure Cobalt owner?

Harry Krause wrote:
On 01 Nov 2003 09:22:40 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:


If you go to JD Powers web site they have reviewed many different models and
products ( http://www.jdpower.com/cc ). If the survey was controlled by
the manufacturer, I would not have expected Sea Ray to come in number 1, and
Bayliner and Maxum to be next to the last, since they are all owned by

Ok.


From the top.

JD Powers does not directly compare products. They collect and compare
"Customer Satisfaction Surveys". Can we agree on that? If so, on to point two.
If not, let me know.

Point two: None of the people they are surveying are directly comparing two or
more products either, (in most cases). They own a new brand X car, boat,
motorcycle, Frisbee, or what not and they get a survey. These people have no
idea based on actual usage experience how their product compares to the
competition.


Oh, puh-lease. When I "participated" in the Yamaha survey, I had 50+
years of actual usage experience with various brands of outboard
motors. So, I presume, do many other purchasers. I doubt 225 hp
outboards of any brand are bought by firs-time boaters.

You have never owned a boat & don't now your endless attempts to self
serve on the subject are just a measure of your low IQ.

Now you've upped the ante in this thread to as ell as having composed &
written treads you think if you lie some more it might actually fool
anyone that "you" own an OB, any OB, No chance you lying simpleton.


Proceed on with your performance I love saving them for the future.

K


A number of the questions had to do with the dealer and how well or
how poorly it performed.