No, I am not a Cobalt owner, but I might be insecure and that might be the
reason I am taking a firm stand without any facts. I have not read "the
Cobalt Report" where can I get one?

Check the JD Powers site. The report may be out of print now, it surfaced here
a year or two ago and was trundled around by a few as the definitive,
objective, and final arbiter about the relative quality of various boat mfgs.
(At the time, there were even a couple of folks who ignored the fact that the
runabout survey was restricted to runabouts and these people were projecting
portions of the results of a "runabout" survey clear up to 35-40 footers).

The report featured a colorful graphic (a #1 IIRC) next to the Cobalt name.
First clue
that the study wasn't purely scientific.

Stop by any vendor selling a product with
a top Powers ranking. Notice the faux cut crystal plaque on display with the
name JD Powers at least as large as the name of the "winner". The plaques are a
marketing gimmick that even the most gullible JD Powers enthusiast should be
able to recognize.

If you sent out another survey, to the same group of people who participated in
the runabout survey, and asked a different set of questions you would get
different results. Now, short of actually doing that we must settle for an
exercise in logic and
hopefully agree that when you change the variables it is not realistic to
expect identical results.

Controlling the questions is an almost foolproof way to influence, if not
absolutely predetermine the results of a survey. When the survey is completed,
Powers needs something to sell.

Gould, The fact that you keep repeating the same statements does not make it
correct. JD Powers has a listing of boats broken down by category at the
following web site:
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/boats/boatratings.jsp

JD Powers has something to sell without resorting to biasing the survey,
that is what you fail to realize. Companies are very interested in the
consumers perception of them, both good and bad, the number 1 label is the
same as Consumer Reports "Best Value" and while there are people who would
disagree with CR ratings, I have never heard anyone say there reports are
deliberately biased.

You seem to have made up your mind, and are not going to allow facts to get
in the way of your viewpoint. Are you insecure or just upset because you
don't own a Cobalt? ; )




"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
No, I am not a Cobalt owner, but I might be insecure and that might be
the
reason I am taking a firm stand without any facts. I have not read "the
Cobalt Report" where can I get one?

Check the JD Powers site. The report may be out of print now, it surfaced
here
a year or two ago and was trundled around by a few as the definitive,
objective, and final arbiter about the relative quality of various boat
mfgs.
(At the time, there were even a couple of folks who ignored the fact that
the
runabout survey was restricted to runabouts and these people were
projecting
portions of the results of a "runabout" survey clear up to 35-40 footers).

The report featured a colorful graphic (a #1 IIRC) next to the Cobalt
name.
First clue
that the study wasn't purely scientific.

Stop by any vendor selling a product with
a top Powers ranking. Notice the faux cut crystal plaque on display with
the
name JD Powers at least as large as the name of the "winner". The plaques
are a
marketing gimmick that even the most gullible JD Powers enthusiast should
be
able to recognize.

If you sent out another survey, to the same group of people who
participated in
the runabout survey, and asked a different set of questions you would get
different results. Now, short of actually doing that we must settle for an
exercise in logic and
hopefully agree that when you change the variables it is not realistic to
expect identical results.

Controlling the questions is an almost foolproof way to influence, if not
absolutely predetermine the results of a survey. When the survey is
completed,
Powers needs something to sell.

"Spam Me Please" wrote in message
news:OY9pb.85137$HS4.692587@attbi_s01...
Gould, The fact that you keep repeating the same statements does not make
it
correct. JD Powers has a listing of boats broken down by category at the
following web site:
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/boats/boatratings.jsp

JD Powers has something to sell without resorting to biasing the survey,
that is what you fail to realize. Companies are very interested in the
consumers perception of them, both good and bad, the number 1 label is the
same as Consumer Reports "Best Value" and while there are people who would
disagree with CR ratings, I have never heard anyone say there reports are
deliberately biased.




The following is a post from JD Powers about how their surveys work. This
was from May 02 from the Trailer Boats Magazine web site.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Hello boaters. I am the director of the J. D. Power and Associates Marine
Study, and I'd be happy to discuss how our program works with anyone who's
interested. There was quite a string of emails in March regarding Bryant's
subscribing to the study. I'll address a few of the misconceptions about
J.D. Power, and I look forward to hearing from anyone and everyone about
what we're up to.
We are surveying some 50,000 owners of boats in six segments this year, with
our 2002 report due out in August. Bass boats, Coastal Fishing (17-28 feet),
Runabouts (16-19 and 20-29 feet), Pontoons, Ski/Wakeboard and Coastal
Cruisers (24-33 feet) are being covered this year, and an engine report will
also be produced covering outboards, sterndrives and inboards by brand and
model.

Manufacturers are included in the study based on how many owners we can mail
out to. We like to have 150 returns per brand per segment for statistical
validity, so with a 28% response rate, we generally look for manufacturers
who produce 450 or more boats per year. We will include smaller builders
under certain circumstances. This year we have 70 boat brands represented,
so we're covering the great majority of the units sold in each of these six
segments.

So whether Bryant or anyone else buys, or subscribes to, our study, if they'
re big enough to qualify, we still survey their owners. That's what gives
our study so much value to our subscribers, in fact; all that competitive
data is used by builders to improve their own product and service.

What we report is not our own analysis or opinion, but the voice of the
consumer. The art here is knowing what questions to ask to elicit
information that is actionable for the boatbuilder. Companies buy our
reports because they contain useful data. Boatbuilders can use the info to
see where their own product comes up short and needs fixing, what not to fix
(since is isn't broken), and precisely where and how the competition is
doing a better job.

Incidentally, a builder like Bryant can buy a copy of our syndicated report
for a little more than half of the $35,000 mentioned, if they take advantage
of various discounts available.

Whether you are a newcomer to boating or an old salt, you may well have no
clue about how well a manufacturer's dealer sales and service network takes
care of its owners. You can own a great boat, with superb construction, a
wonderful hull form and smooth-as-silk propulsion, but if the warranty
service or parts availability is lacking, you won't enjoy the experience of
owning the boat as much as you should. These reports tell us who's who in
the industry, and they're based entirely on survey results from owners like
you.

At www.jdpower.com, you can see the Power Circle rankings of the three boat
segments we surveyed last year. These website rankings are high-level; the
detailed, actionable info is reserved for the manufacturers who pay to put
it to work for them. These rankings are based solely on customer input, and
have nothing to do with who did or didn't buy the reports from us.

Those manufacturers who win in each segment also have the option of paying
for the use of the J.D. Power name in their advertising. When you see a
Cobalt, Grady White or Ranger (or Lexus) ad with the J.D. Power name and
trophy, they purchased the right to use it.

We hope and expect that the public spotlight provided by J.D. Power's entry
into the marine industry results in improved levels of quality and customer
satisfaction across the board. That's certainly been the case in automotive
and other industries, and we look forward to it happening in marine as well.

Thanks, and I look forward to hearing from you.

--------------------
Eric Sorensen
Director, Marine Practice
J.D. Power and Associates


-------------------------------------------------------------------





posted May 15, 2002 01:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks to all of you for your interest in the J.D. Power and
Associates marine study. I'll answer a few of your questions, in the general
order in which they appear in the string.
1.) We take a similar "snapshot", sample-size-wise, of all the
boatbuilders in a segment. That means we survey (send out questionnaires to)
about the same number of owners per brand per segment. For instance, we don'
t send surveys to 3,000 Bayliner owners and 300 Cobalt owners; once you get
to a certain number of returns, adding sample size is going to have little
if any impact on the overall results. We make sure we're at that baseline
level before we include a brand in any of our syndicated studies.

2.) We find that the very happy and very upset owners, as well as
those in the middle of the road, tend to balance each other out, producing
consistent results among the brands.

3.) The questions are designed to be as neutral as possible, so we don
't "lead the witness", or try to produce one result rather than another.

4.) We've found that there was surprisingly little difference,
statistically, between the responses of owners who'd owned their boats for
shorter or longer periods of time.

5.) We are careful to prevent any "gaming" (for instance, a
manufacturer withholding the names of dissatisfied customers would be
gaming) in the study. As an auditing step, we either get or verify all of
our boat owners' names from an independent, 3rd-party source which has
access to HIN data on nearly all boats sold in the country. If we can't
verify the validity of name source, it isn't included in the study.

6.) There is really no merit to the notion that larger builders
somehow score better. See the 2001 public rankings at www.jdpower.com for
the evidence.

7.) Regarding perception, which is part of what we measure and report
on, the customers' collective perception is the boatbuilder's (and engine
manufacturer's) reality.

--------------------
Eric Sorensen
Director, Marine Practice
J.D. Power and Associates

K Smith wrote:

Proceed on with your performance I love saving them for the future.

Now THAT is really wierd, K. The only thing wierder than that is your
casual admission that you get some peculiar satisfaction when you "save
them for the future.

You may want to talk to a medical professional about that.

Or just go ahead and admit you are a little more than infatuated with
Harry and your nasty little posts are just your form of "talking dirty"
while you are doing whatever it is you do.

Eeeewwwwww, talk about creepy!

Rick

Bill,
Excellent post, but I guess you just bought into the fallacy that a company
can make money and still conduct an unbiased survey. : )

There are some people who assume all companies are crooks and bias their own
perception of reality based upon that preconceived outlook of the world.


"Billgran" wrote in message
...

"Spam Me Please" wrote in message
news:OY9pb.85137$HS4.692587@attbi_s01...
Gould, The fact that you keep repeating the same statements does not
make
it
correct. JD Powers has a listing of boats broken down by category at
the
following web site:
http://www.jdpower.com/cc/boats/boatratings.jsp

JD Powers has something to sell without resorting to biasing the survey,
that is what you fail to realize. Companies are very interested in the
consumers perception of them, both good and bad, the number 1 label is
the
same as Consumer Reports "Best Value" and while there are people who
would
disagree with CR ratings, I have never heard anyone say there reports
are
deliberately biased.




The following is a post from JD Powers about how their surveys work. This
was from May 02 from the Trailer Boats Magazine web site.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
----
Hello boaters. I am the director of the J. D. Power and Associates Marine
Study, and I'd be happy to discuss how our program works with anyone who's
interested. There was quite a string of emails in March regarding Bryant's
subscribing to the study. I'll address a few of the misconceptions about
J.D. Power, and I look forward to hearing from anyone and everyone about
what we're up to.
We are surveying some 50,000 owners of boats in six segments this year,
with
our 2002 report due out in August. Bass boats, Coastal Fishing (17-28
feet),
Runabouts (16-19 and 20-29 feet), Pontoons, Ski/Wakeboard and Coastal
Cruisers (24-33 feet) are being covered this year, and an engine report
will
also be produced covering outboards, sterndrives and inboards by brand and
model.

Manufacturers are included in the study based on how many owners we can
mail
out to. We like to have 150 returns per brand per segment for statistical
validity, so with a 28% response rate, we generally look for manufacturers
who produce 450 or more boats per year. We will include smaller builders
under certain circumstances. This year we have 70 boat brands represented,
so we're covering the great majority of the units sold in each of these
six
segments.

So whether Bryant or anyone else buys, or subscribes to, our study, if
they'
re big enough to qualify, we still survey their owners. That's what gives
our study so much value to our subscribers, in fact; all that competitive
data is used by builders to improve their own product and service.

What we report is not our own analysis or opinion, but the voice of the
consumer. The art here is knowing what questions to ask to elicit
information that is actionable for the boatbuilder. Companies buy our
reports because they contain useful data. Boatbuilders can use the info to
see where their own product comes up short and needs fixing, what not to
fix
(since is isn't broken), and precisely where and how the competition is
doing a better job.

Incidentally, a builder like Bryant can buy a copy of our syndicated
report
for a little more than half of the $35,000 mentioned, if they take
advantage
of various discounts available.

Whether you are a newcomer to boating or an old salt, you may well have no
clue about how well a manufacturer's dealer sales and service network
takes
care of its owners. You can own a great boat, with superb construction, a
wonderful hull form and smooth-as-silk propulsion, but if the warranty
service or parts availability is lacking, you won't enjoy the experience
of
owning the boat as much as you should. These reports tell us who's who in
the industry, and they're based entirely on survey results from owners
like
you.

At www.jdpower.com, you can see the Power Circle rankings of the three
boat
segments we surveyed last year. These website rankings are high-level; the
detailed, actionable info is reserved for the manufacturers who pay to put
it to work for them. These rankings are based solely on customer input,
and
have nothing to do with who did or didn't buy the reports from us.

Those manufacturers who win in each segment also have the option of paying
for the use of the J.D. Power name in their advertising. When you see a
Cobalt, Grady White or Ranger (or Lexus) ad with the J.D. Power name and
trophy, they purchased the right to use it.

We hope and expect that the public spotlight provided by J.D. Power's
entry
into the marine industry results in improved levels of quality and
customer
satisfaction across the board. That's certainly been the case in
automotive
and other industries, and we look forward to it happening in marine as
well.

Thanks, and I look forward to hearing from you.

--------------------
Eric Sorensen
Director, Marine Practice
J.D. Power and Associates


-------------------------------------------------------------------





posted May 15, 2002 01:17 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks to all of you for your interest in the J.D. Power and
Associates marine study. I'll answer a few of your questions, in the
general
order in which they appear in the string.
1.) We take a similar "snapshot", sample-size-wise, of all the
boatbuilders in a segment. That means we survey (send out questionnaires
to)
about the same number of owners per brand per segment. For instance, we
don'
t send surveys to 3,000 Bayliner owners and 300 Cobalt owners; once you
get
to a certain number of returns, adding sample size is going to have little
if any impact on the overall results. We make sure we're at that baseline
level before we include a brand in any of our syndicated studies.

2.) We find that the very happy and very upset owners, as well as
those in the middle of the road, tend to balance each other out, producing
consistent results among the brands.

3.) The questions are designed to be as neutral as possible, so we
don
't "lead the witness", or try to produce one result rather than another.

4.) We've found that there was surprisingly little difference,
statistically, between the responses of owners who'd owned their boats for
shorter or longer periods of time.

5.) We are careful to prevent any "gaming" (for instance, a
manufacturer withholding the names of dissatisfied customers would be
gaming) in the study. As an auditing step, we either get or verify all of
our boat owners' names from an independent, 3rd-party source which has
access to HIN data on nearly all boats sold in the country. If we can't
verify the validity of name source, it isn't included in the study.

6.) There is really no merit to the notion that larger builders
somehow score better. See the 2001 public rankings at www.jdpower.com for
the evidence.

7.) Regarding perception, which is part of what we measure and
report
on, the customers' collective perception is the boatbuilder's (and engine
manufacturer's) reality.

--------------------
Eric Sorensen
Director, Marine Practice
J.D. Power and Associates

Rick wrote:
K Smith wrote:

Proceed on with your performance I love saving them for the future.

Now THAT is really wierd, K. The only thing wierder than that is your
casual admission that you get some peculiar satisfaction when you "save
them for the future.

You may want to talk to a medical professional about that.

Or just go ahead and admit you are a little more than infatuated with
Harry and your nasty little posts are just your form of "talking dirty"
while you are doing whatever it is you do.

Eeeewwwwww, talk about creepy!

Rick


Indeed. Gives me the shivers. It transcends creepy.

--
Email sent to will never reach me.

Incidentally, a builder like Bryant can buy a copy of our syndicated
report
for a little more than half of the $35,000 mentioned, if they take
advantage
of various discounts available.

These website rankings are high-level; the
detailed, actionable info is reserved for the manufacturers who pay to put
it to work for them.

Those manufacturers who win in each segment also have the option of paying
for the use of the J.D. Power name in their advertising. When you see a
Cobalt, Grady White or Ranger (or Lexus) ad with the J.D. Power name and
trophy, they purchased the right to use it.

And that's how the company makes its money. (At least according to Eric
Sorensen of J.D. Power and Associates)

the fact that JD Power makes money and sells the right to use the JD Powers
name in their advertisements does not mean they bias the results.

Any company who wins the #1 label is going to be tickled to death to pay
them $35,000, heck even Bayliner who is cheap on everything would pay
$35,000 to use JD Powers name.

Don't take this personal Gould, but you are idiot who see black helicopters
flying all around you.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Incidentally, a builder like Bryant can buy a copy of our syndicated
report
for a little more than half of the $35,000 mentioned, if they take
advantage
of various discounts available.

These website rankings are high-level; the
detailed, actionable info is reserved for the manufacturers who pay to
put
it to work for them.

Those manufacturers who win in each segment also have the option of
paying
for the use of the J.D. Power name in their advertising. When you see a
Cobalt, Grady White or Ranger (or Lexus) ad with the J.D. Power name
and
trophy, they purchased the right to use it.

And that's how the company makes its money. (At least according to Eric
Sorensen of J.D. Power and Associates)

Don't take this personal Gould, but you are idiot who see black helicopters
flying all around you.

By rights, I really ought to respond,
"Don't take this personal, brave and courageous anonymous handle, but you are
........." But you know, that would be stooping to a very childish level. I
think I'll pass, but thanks for the opening.

Didn't you say you sold cars for a living? I have heard that car salesman
make money by getting people to buy their product. I have heard that some
people will lie to get people to buy their product. I have heard that car
salesman have a reputation for lying and doing whatever it takes to get the
order.

Following your logic concerning JD Powers you must be liar who would do
anything to make a buck.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Don't take this personal Gould, but you are idiot who see black
helicopters
flying all around you.

By rights, I really ought to respond,
"Don't take this personal, brave and courageous anonymous handle, but you
are
........" But you know, that would be stooping to a very childish level.
I
think I'll pass, but thanks for the opening.