"Joe" wrote in message . ..
This from someone who has convinced himself (and Joe) that consume and
burn mean the same thing!!!!! By the way, my neighbor and I had a good
laugh at you and Joe last evening. He's a Chrysler certified mechanic,
so I've shown him your posts. As we were working on his Honda
lawnmower motor, I told him I thought it was the carb acting up, and
he said "Nah, probably not burning enough oil."!

Birds of a feather.

Don't you find it a little curious that NO ONE has agreed with your
position?

Funny, but aircraft machinists do!:

Suggestions for Proper Engine Break-In

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whenever an engine's piston rings are replaced whether in part or in
entirety it is necessary to break in the engine. Piston rings are
replaced at a complete engine overhaul or repair, top overhaul or
single cylinder overhaul or repair.

When we refer to engine or cylinder break in, we are talking about the
physical mating of the engine's piston rings to it's corresponding
cylinder wall. That is, we want to physically wear the new piston
rings into the cylinder wall until a compatible seal between the two
is achieved.

Proper engine break in will produce an engine that achieves maximum
power output with the least amount of oil consumption due to the fact
that the piston rings have seated properly to the cylinder wall. When
the piston rings are broken in or seated, they do not allow combustion
gases to escape the combustion chamber past the piston rings into the
crankcase section of the engine. This lack of "blow-by" keeps your
engine running cleaner and cooler by preventing hot combustion gases
and by-products from entering the crankcase section of the engine.
Excessive "blow-by" will cause the crankcase section of the engine to
become pressurized and contaminated with combustion gases, which in
turn will force normal oil vapors out of the engine's breather,
causing the engine to consume excessive amounts of oil. In addition to
sealing combustion gases in the combustion chamber, piston rings must
also manage the amount of oil present on the cylinder walls for
lubrication. If the rings do not seat properly, they cannot perform
this function and will allow excessive amounts of oil to accumulate on
the cylinder wall surfaces. This oil is burned each and every time the
cylinder fires. The burning of this oil, coupled with "blow-by"
induced engine breathing, are reasons that an engine that hasn't been
broken in will consume more than its share of oil.

When a cylinder is overhauled or repaired the surface of it's walls
are honed with abrasive stones to produce a rough surface that will
help wear the piston rings in. This roughing up of the surface is
known as "cross-hatching". A cylinder wall that has been properly
"cross hatched" has a series of minute peaks and valleys cut into its
surface. The face or portion of the piston ring that interfaces with
the cross hatched cylinder wall is tapered to allow only a small
portion of the ring to contact the honed cylinder wall. When the
engine is operated, the tapered portion of the face of the piston ring
rubs against the coarse surface of the cylinder wall causing wear on
both objects. At the point where the top of the peaks produced by the
honing operation become smooth and the tapered portion of the piston
ring wears flat break in has occurred.

When the engine is operating, a force known as Break Mean Effective
Pressure or B.M.E.P is generated within the combustion chamber.
B.M.E.P. is the resultant force produced from the controlled burning
of the fuel air mixture that the engine runs on. The higher the power
setting the engine is running at, the higher the B.M.E.P. is and
conversely as the power setting is lowered the B.M.E.P. becomes less.

B.M.E.P is an important part of the break in process. When the engine
is running, B.M.E.P. is present in the cylinder behind the piston
rings and it's force pushes the piston ring outward against the coarse
honed cylinder wall. The higher the B.M.E.P, the harder the piston
ring is pushed against the wall. The surface temperature at the piston
ring face and cylinder wall interface will be greater with high
B.M.E.P. than with low B.M.E.P. This is because we are pushing the
ring harder against the rough cylinder wall surface causing high
amounts of friction and thus heat. The primary deterrent of break in
is this heat. Allowing to much heat to build up at the ring to
cylinder wall interface will cause the lubricating oil that is present
to break down and glaze the cylinder wall surface. This glaze will
prevent any further seating of the piston rings. If glazing is allowed
to happen break in will never occur. We must achieve a happy medium
where we are pushing on the ring hard enough to wear it in but not
hard enough to generate enough heat to cause glazing. If glazing
should occur, the only remedy is to remove the effected cylinder,
re-hone it and replace the piston rings and start the whole process
over again.

Understanding what happens in the engine during break in allows us to
comprehend the ideas behind how we should operate the engine after
piston rings have been changed. The normal prescribed flight procedure
after ring replacement is to keep ground running to a minimum, take
off at full power and reduce to climb power at the first available
safe altitude, all while keeping the climb angle flat and the climb
airspeed higher to promote the best cooling possible. At cruise
altitude we should use 65% to 75% power and run the engine richer then
normal. At all times we are to remember that heat is the greatest
enemy of engine break in, we should try to maintain all engine
temperatures in the green, well away from the top of the green arc or
red line. This means step climbing the aircraft if necessary,
operating with the cowl flaps open or in trail position during cruise
flight and being generous with the fuel allocation for the engine. We
should not run the engine above 75% power in cruise flight because the
B.M.E.P is too great and the likelihood of glazing increases. As you
can see, keeping the engine as cool as is practical and at a conducive
power setting is the best combination for successful engine break in.

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 14:12:20 GMT, "Joe" wrote:

This from someone who has convinced himself (and Joe) that consume and
burn mean the same thing!!!!! By the way, my neighbor and I had a good
laugh at you and Joe last evening. He's a Chrysler certified mechanic,
so I've shown him your posts. As we were working on his Honda
lawnmower motor, I told him I thought it was the carb acting up, and
he said "Nah, probably not burning enough oil."!

Birds of a feather.

Don't you find it a little curious that NO ONE has agreed with your
position?

DimDummy's neighbor has. Obviously they drink from the same well. At
least his 8yo daughter now knows her father is an idiot.

Steve

You have no shame. Because you're wrong, and know it, you'll stop at
nothing to try to make yourself look like a man. You're not. You
wouldn't be worth getting my shoes messy to stop on your idiot little
pencil neck. **** you.

"jps" wrote in message ...
"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 14:12:20 GMT, "Joe" wrote:

This from someone who has convinced himself (and Joe) that consume and
burn mean the same thing!!!!! By the way, my neighbor and I had a good
laugh at you and Joe last evening. He's a Chrysler certified mechanic,
so I've shown him your posts. As we were working on his Honda
lawnmower motor, I told him I thought it was the carb acting up, and
he said "Nah, probably not burning enough oil."!

Birds of a feather.

Don't you find it a little curious that NO ONE has agreed with your
position?

DimDummy's neighbor has. Obviously they drink from the same well. At
least his 8yo daughter now knows her father is an idiot.

Steve

Damn Steve, did your father beat you or call you a moron or what? Do you
have children and understand the weight of this hateful tone of yours?

How someone can be as smart as you and so socially stunted is awesome. Best
of luck with your personal challenge.

He's a worthless pig and knows it, hence he resorts to **** like that.

On 14 Jul 2003 10:26:56 -0700, (basskisser) wrote:

"jps" wrote in message ...
"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 08 Jul 2003 14:12:20 GMT, "Joe" wrote:

This from someone who has convinced himself (and Joe) that consume and
burn mean the same thing!!!!! By the way, my neighbor and I had a good
laugh at you and Joe last evening. He's a Chrysler certified mechanic,
so I've shown him your posts. As we were working on his Honda
lawnmower motor, I told him I thought it was the carb acting up, and
he said "Nah, probably not burning enough oil."!

Birds of a feather.

Don't you find it a little curious that NO ONE has agreed with your
position?

DimDummy's neighbor has. Obviously they drink from the same well. At
least his 8yo daughter now knows her father is an idiot.

Damn Steve, did your father beat you or call you a moron or what? Do you
have children and understand the weight of this hateful tone of yours?

How someone can be as smart as you and so socially stunted is awesome. Best
of luck with your personal challenge.

He's a worthless pig and knows it, hence he resorts to **** like that.

YOU are the worthless pig who resorted to using your own 8 yo daughter.
Only a desperate unthinking fool would do that.

Steve

On 14 Jul 2003 10:23:33 -0700, (basskisser) wrote:

"Joe" wrote in message . ..
This from someone who has convinced himself (and Joe) that consume and
burn mean the same thing!!!!! By the way, my neighbor and I had a good
laugh at you and Joe last evening. He's a Chrysler certified mechanic,
so I've shown him your posts. As we were working on his Honda
lawnmower motor, I told him I thought it was the carb acting up, and
he said "Nah, probably not burning enough oil."!

Birds of a feather.

Don't you find it a little curious that NO ONE has agreed with your
position?

Funny, but aircraft machinists do!:

Pleas point out anywhere in your quote below that states an engine
should burn NO oil. You won't be able to, because it doesn't say it.
In fact, the part I snipped below:

In addition to
sealing combustion gases in the combustion chamber, piston rings must
also manage the amount of oil present on the cylinder walls for
lubrication. If the rings do not seat properly, they cannot perform
this function and will allow excessive amounts of oil to accumulate on
the cylinder wall surfaces. This oil is burned each and every time the
cylinder fires. The burning of this oil, coupled with "blow-by"
induced engine breathing, are reasons that an engine that hasn't been
broken in will consume more than its share of oil.

Is in total agreement with everything I've said, and disagrees with
everything you've said.

Keep trying. And next time, don't bring your daughter in to help you,
you pathetic loser.

Steve

Suggestions for Proper Engine Break-In

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whenever an engine's piston rings are replaced whether in part or in
entirety it is necessary to break in the engine. Piston rings are
replaced at a complete engine overhaul or repair, top overhaul or
single cylinder overhaul or repair.

When we refer to engine or cylinder break in, we are talking about the
physical mating of the engine's piston rings to it's corresponding
cylinder wall. That is, we want to physically wear the new piston
rings into the cylinder wall until a compatible seal between the two
is achieved.

Proper engine break in will produce an engine that achieves maximum
power output with the least amount of oil consumption due to the fact
that the piston rings have seated properly to the cylinder wall. When
the piston rings are broken in or seated, they do not allow combustion
gases to escape the combustion chamber past the piston rings into the
crankcase section of the engine. This lack of "blow-by" keeps your
engine running cleaner and cooler by preventing hot combustion gases
and by-products from entering the crankcase section of the engine.
Excessive "blow-by" will cause the crankcase section of the engine to
become pressurized and contaminated with combustion gases, which in
turn will force normal oil vapors out of the engine's breather,
causing the engine to consume excessive amounts of oil. In addition to
sealing combustion gases in the combustion chamber, piston rings must
also manage the amount of oil present on the cylinder walls for
lubrication. If the rings do not seat properly, they cannot perform
this function and will allow excessive amounts of oil to accumulate on
the cylinder wall surfaces. This oil is burned each and every time the
cylinder fires. The burning of this oil, coupled with "blow-by"
induced engine breathing, are reasons that an engine that hasn't been
broken in will consume more than its share of oil.

When a cylinder is overhauled or repaired the surface of it's walls
are honed with abrasive stones to produce a rough surface that will
help wear the piston rings in. This roughing up of the surface is
known as "cross-hatching". A cylinder wall that has been properly
"cross hatched" has a series of minute peaks and valleys cut into its
surface. The face or portion of the piston ring that interfaces with
the cross hatched cylinder wall is tapered to allow only a small
portion of the ring to contact the honed cylinder wall. When the
engine is operated, the tapered portion of the face of the piston ring
rubs against the coarse surface of the cylinder wall causing wear on
both objects. At the point where the top of the peaks produced by the
honing operation become smooth and the tapered portion of the piston
ring wears flat break in has occurred.

When the engine is operating, a force known as Break Mean Effective
Pressure or B.M.E.P is generated within the combustion chamber.
B.M.E.P. is the resultant force produced from the controlled burning
of the fuel air mixture that the engine runs on. The higher the power
setting the engine is running at, the higher the B.M.E.P. is and
conversely as the power setting is lowered the B.M.E.P. becomes less.

B.M.E.P is an important part of the break in process. When the engine
is running, B.M.E.P. is present in the cylinder behind the piston
rings and it's force pushes the piston ring outward against the coarse
honed cylinder wall. The higher the B.M.E.P, the harder the piston
ring is pushed against the wall. The surface temperature at the piston
ring face and cylinder wall interface will be greater with high
B.M.E.P. than with low B.M.E.P. This is because we are pushing the
ring harder against the rough cylinder wall surface causing high
amounts of friction and thus heat. The primary deterrent of break in
is this heat. Allowing to much heat to build up at the ring to
cylinder wall interface will cause the lubricating oil that is present
to break down and glaze the cylinder wall surface. This glaze will
prevent any further seating of the piston rings. If glazing is allowed
to happen break in will never occur. We must achieve a happy medium
where we are pushing on the ring hard enough to wear it in but not
hard enough to generate enough heat to cause glazing. If glazing
should occur, the only remedy is to remove the effected cylinder,
re-hone it and replace the piston rings and start the whole process
over again.

Understanding what happens in the engine during break in allows us to
comprehend the ideas behind how we should operate the engine after
piston rings have been changed. The normal prescribed flight procedure
after ring replacement is to keep ground running to a minimum, take
off at full power and reduce to climb power at the first available
safe altitude, all while keeping the climb angle flat and the climb
airspeed higher to promote the best cooling possible. At cruise
altitude we should use 65% to 75% power and run the engine richer then
normal. At all times we are to remember that heat is the greatest
enemy of engine break in, we should try to maintain all engine
temperatures in the green, well away from the top of the green arc or
red line. This means step climbing the aircraft if necessary,
operating with the cowl flaps open or in trail position during cruise
flight and being generous with the fuel allocation for the engine. We
should not run the engine above 75% power in cruise flight because the
B.M.E.P is too great and the likelihood of glazing increases. As you
can see, keeping the engine as cool as is practical and at a conducive
power setting is the best combination for successful engine break in.

On 14 Jul 2003 10:29:27 -0700, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message
I'm saying that oil is being burned by an engine whenever it's running.
That for a normal engine in good shape, it's just about the only way an
engine can lose oil *if* you don't see it dripping out anywhere, either
from the case or the exhaust..

Steve
This is from an aircraft machinist's book:

Suggestions for Proper Engine Break-In

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whenever an engine's piston rings are replaced whether in part or in
entirety it is necessary to break in the engine. Piston rings are
replaced at a complete engine overhaul or repair, top overhaul or
single cylinder overhaul or repair.

When we refer to engine or cylinder break in, we are talking about the
physical mating of the engine's piston rings to it's corresponding
cylinder wall. That is, we want to physically wear the new piston
rings into the cylinder wall until a compatible seal between the two
is achieved.

Proper engine break in will produce an engine that achieves maximum
power output with the least amount of oil consumption due to the fact

Notice it said LEAST amount, not none.

that the piston rings have seated properly to the cylinder wall. When
the piston rings are broken in or seated, they do not allow combustion
gases to escape the combustion chamber past the piston rings into the
crankcase section of the engine. This lack of "blow-by" keeps your
engine running cleaner and cooler by preventing hot combustion gases
and by-products from entering the crankcase section of the engine.
Excessive "blow-by" will cause the crankcase section of the engine to
become pressurized and contaminated with combustion gases, which in
turn will force normal oil vapors out of the engine's breather,
causing the engine to consume excessive amounts of oil. In addition to
sealing combustion gases in the combustion chamber, piston rings must
also manage the amount of oil present on the cylinder walls for
lubrication. If the rings do not seat properly, they cannot perform

Notice it said that the job of the rings is to manage the amount of oil
present on the cylinder walls for lubrication, not wipe all the oil away
as you have said.

this function and will allow excessive amounts of oil to accumulate on
the cylinder wall surfaces. This oil is burned each and every time the
cylinder fires. The burning of this oil, coupled with "blow-by"
induced engine breathing, are reasons that an engine that hasn't been
broken in will consume more than its share of oil.

Notice that it says if it burns excessive amounts of oil, it's
*consuming* more than it's share of oil, not that consuming no oil is
the normal case. The normal case is consuming it's share of oil, by
burning the non-excessive oil from the cylinder wall surfaces.


When a cylinder is overhauled or repaired the surface of it's walls
are honed with abrasive stones to produce a rough surface that will
help wear the piston rings in. This roughing up of the surface is
known as "cross-hatching". A cylinder wall that has been properly
"cross hatched" has a series of minute peaks and valleys cut into its
surface. The face or portion of the piston ring that interfaces with
the cross hatched cylinder wall is tapered to allow only a small
portion of the ring to contact the honed cylinder wall. When the
engine is operated, the tapered portion of the face of the piston ring
rubs against the coarse surface of the cylinder wall causing wear on
both objects. At the point where the top of the peaks produced by the
honing operation become smooth and the tapered portion of the piston
ring wears flat break in has occurred.

When the engine is operating, a force known as Break Mean Effective
Pressure or B.M.E.P is generated within the combustion chamber.
B.M.E.P. is the resultant force produced from the controlled burning
of the fuel air mixture that the engine runs on. The higher the power
setting the engine is running at, the higher the B.M.E.P. is and
conversely as the power setting is lowered the B.M.E.P. becomes less.

B.M.E.P is an important part of the break in process. When the engine
is running, B.M.E.P. is present in the cylinder behind the piston
rings and it's force pushes the piston ring outward against the coarse
honed cylinder wall. The higher the B.M.E.P, the harder the piston
ring is pushed against the wall. The surface temperature at the piston
ring face and cylinder wall interface will be greater with high
B.M.E.P. than with low B.M.E.P. This is because we are pushing the
ring harder against the rough cylinder wall surface causing high
amounts of friction and thus heat. The primary deterrent of break in
is this heat. Allowing to much heat to build up at the ring to
cylinder wall interface will cause the lubricating oil that is present
to break down and glaze the cylinder wall surface. This glaze will

Apparently there must be oil present on the cylinder wall even on a new
engine being broken in.

[rest of breakin stuff snipped since it's not relavent to oil control]

Next time, if you're going to provide a citation, you should really
think about providing one that supports your case, not one that supports
mine. Of course, you're probably sooooo stupid you didn't even
recognize who's case it supports. You probably just saw buzzwords like
"rings" and "manage the amount of oil" and assumed, like the stupid
idiot you are, that it was something which would prove your point.
Well, it did prove one thing: you don't know how to read.

Steve

On 14 Jul 2003 10:19:26 -0700, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 11 Jul 2003 04:07:47 -0700, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message

snip the drivel and name calling

Now, are you going to tell us in what way does an engine lose the oil on
the cylinder wall during the power stroke in the combustion process if
it isn't burned?

Certainly.
snipped more of your drivel and name calling

Now, ever hear of a burned exhaust valve? If the rings are worn enough
to allow oil past them, and the exhaust valve is *slightly burned*,
the oil will push out of the valve on any stroke where there is
compression.

A burned, even slightly burned, exhaust valve is not the normal case on
a new engine. An engine where the exhaust valve makes a good seal when
closed will still burn oil. The rings will allow oil past them even
when brand new. But let's examine your example above.

Who, and when was ANY statement made about the engine being "new"?

YOU did, or at least you made statements alluding to an engine being in
good shape not burning ANY oil. An engine with burned exhaust valves is
no longer in good shape. Man, you are stupid.

You're saying that if the rings are worn enough, they will allow oil
past them. Nevermind the fact that this is always the case. So, the
rings are allowing oil past them into the cylinder. The compression
stroke comes along and you're saying that during the compression stroke,
the oil that is in the cylinder is going to be squeezed out past a
slightly leaky exhaust valve and will be "consumed" as far as the engine
is concerned. Right so far? Ok.

Wrong so far, ok? Ever hear of valve stem seals? Ever hear of the
wearing and leaking?

But YOU said the oil was going past a slightly burned exhaust valve.
Keep your story straight. Of course oil can get past valve stem seals.
It's also burned when it does.

You do realize that not all of the "stuff" that's in the cylinder (in
this case, our air-fuel-oil mixture) gets evacuated during the
compression stroke, right? There is still some left in the cylinder at
the end of the compression stroke. So, in your example above, not *all*
of the oil that got past the rings will be forced out of the slightly
burned exhaust valve. Some will remain in the cylinder when that spark
comes and lights the whole mess off. What do you think happens to the
oil that didn't make it out of the slightly burned exhaust valve?

Again, valve stem seals. Easily worn out, very common.

You actually believe that ALL the oil, which YOU say is in the cylinder
during the compression stroke, somehow makes it out before the spark?
Just how does it to that? You're digging yourself in deeper and
deeper, and proving just how stupid you are once again, if you say
"worbn valve stem seals" can somehow get all the oil out of the cylinder
between the compression and power stroke.

Now that we're done examining your one way of losing oil above, let's go
back to the way the technical reference described. Please answer the
question: In what way does an engine lose oil on the cylinder wall
during the power stroke in the combustion process if it isn't burned?

Again, putting words in my mouth. WHERE did I say that the oil came
from the cylinder wall?

YOU didn't say that, you IDIOT. The technical reference from GM said
it. It says that the engine looses oil on the cylinder wall during the
power stroke in the combustion process. Do you care to disagree with
it? If so, just say that you know more about engines than GM and we can
finally show that not only are you a stupid moron, but an arrogant idiot
as well ... and finally put an end to this.

Steve

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 14 Jul 2003 10:29:27 -0700, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message
I'm saying that oil is being burned by an engine whenever it's running.
That for a normal engine in good shape, it's just about the only way an
engine can lose oil *if* you don't see it dripping out anywhere, either
from the case or the exhaust..

Steve
This is from an aircraft machinist's book:

Suggestions for Proper Engine Break-In

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whenever an engine's piston rings are replaced whether in part or in
entirety it is necessary to break in the engine. Piston rings are
replaced at a complete engine overhaul or repair, top overhaul or
single cylinder overhaul or repair.

When we refer to engine or cylinder break in, we are talking about the
physical mating of the engine's piston rings to it's corresponding
cylinder wall. That is, we want to physically wear the new piston
rings into the cylinder wall until a compatible seal between the two
is achieved.

Proper engine break in will produce an engine that achieves maximum
power output with the least amount of oil consumption due to the fact

Notice it said LEAST amount, not none.

Notice it said consumption. Did you notice?

that the piston rings have seated properly to the cylinder wall. When
the piston rings are broken in or seated, they do not allow combustion
gases to escape the combustion chamber past the piston rings into the
crankcase section of the engine. This lack of "blow-by" keeps your
engine running cleaner and cooler by preventing hot combustion gases
and by-products from entering the crankcase section of the engine.
Excessive "blow-by" will cause the crankcase section of the engine to
become pressurized and contaminated with combustion gases, which in
turn will force normal oil vapors out of the engine's breather,
causing the engine to consume excessive amounts of oil. In addition to
sealing combustion gases in the combustion chamber, piston rings must
also manage the amount of oil present on the cylinder walls for
lubrication. If the rings do not seat properly, they cannot perform

Notice it said that the job of the rings is to manage the amount of oil
present on the cylinder walls for lubrication, not wipe all the oil away
as you have said.

Where does it say that? I can't find ANYWHERE where it says "the job
of the rings is to manage the amount of oil present on the cylinder
walls for lubrication, not wipe all the oil away". Now, would you say
that if you had enough of a seal to "seal combustion gases in the
combustion chamber", that oil would get past that seal? Absolutely
NOT.


this function and will allow excessive amounts of oil to accumulate on
the cylinder wall surfaces. This oil is burned each and every time the
cylinder fires. The burning of this oil, coupled with "blow-by"
induced engine breathing, are reasons that an engine that hasn't been
broken in will consume more than its share of oil.

Notice that it says if it burns excessive amounts of oil, it's
*consuming* more than it's share of oil, not that consuming no oil is
the normal case. The normal case is consuming it's share of oil, by
burning the non-excessive oil from the cylinder wall surfaces.

Again, consumption. Read it please.


When a cylinder is overhauled or repaired the surface of it's walls
are honed with abrasive stones to produce a rough surface that will
help wear the piston rings in. This roughing up of the surface is
known as "cross-hatching". A cylinder wall that has been properly
"cross hatched" has a series of minute peaks and valleys cut into its
surface. The face or portion of the piston ring that interfaces with
the cross hatched cylinder wall is tapered to allow only a small
portion of the ring to contact the honed cylinder wall. When the
engine is operated, the tapered portion of the face of the piston ring
rubs against the coarse surface of the cylinder wall causing wear on
both objects. At the point where the top of the peaks produced by the
honing operation become smooth and the tapered portion of the piston
ring wears flat break in has occurred.

When the engine is operating, a force known as Break Mean Effective
Pressure or B.M.E.P is generated within the combustion chamber.
B.M.E.P. is the resultant force produced from the controlled burning
of the fuel air mixture that the engine runs on. The higher the power
setting the engine is running at, the higher the B.M.E.P. is and
conversely as the power setting is lowered the B.M.E.P. becomes less.

B.M.E.P is an important part of the break in process. When the engine
is running, B.M.E.P. is present in the cylinder behind the piston
rings and it's force pushes the piston ring outward against the coarse
honed cylinder wall. The higher the B.M.E.P, the harder the piston
ring is pushed against the wall. The surface temperature at the piston
ring face and cylinder wall interface will be greater with high
B.M.E.P. than with low B.M.E.P. This is because we are pushing the
ring harder against the rough cylinder wall surface causing high
amounts of friction and thus heat. The primary deterrent of break in
is this heat. Allowing to much heat to build up at the ring to
cylinder wall interface will cause the lubricating oil that is present
to break down and glaze the cylinder wall surface. This glaze will

Apparently there must be oil present on the cylinder wall even on a new
engine being broken in.

That's the reason for break in....jeez!

[rest of breakin stuff snipped since it's not relavent to oil control]

Next time, if you're going to provide a citation, you should really
think about providing one that supports your case, not one that supports
mine. Of course, you're probably sooooo stupid you didn't even
recognize who's case it supports. You probably just saw buzzwords like
"rings" and "manage the amount of oil" and assumed, like the stupid
idiot you are, that it was something which would prove your point.
Well, it did prove one thing: you don't know how to read.

Steve

Haahaa!! What a dolt. Now, how about YOU read. You are so wrapped up
in trying to be correct, that you see things that simply aren't there.

On 15 Jul 2003 04:23:21 -0700, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 14 Jul 2003 10:29:27 -0700, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message
I'm saying that oil is being burned by an engine whenever it's running.
That for a normal engine in good shape, it's just about the only way an
engine can lose oil *if* you don't see it dripping out anywhere, either
from the case or the exhaust..

Steve
This is from an aircraft machinist's book:

Suggestions for Proper Engine Break-In

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whenever an engine's piston rings are replaced whether in part or in
entirety it is necessary to break in the engine. Piston rings are
replaced at a complete engine overhaul or repair, top overhaul or
single cylinder overhaul or repair.

When we refer to engine or cylinder break in, we are talking about the
physical mating of the engine's piston rings to it's corresponding
cylinder wall. That is, we want to physically wear the new piston
rings into the cylinder wall until a compatible seal between the two
is achieved.

Proper engine break in will produce an engine that achieves maximum
power output with the least amount of oil consumption due to the fact

Notice it said LEAST amount, not none.

Notice it said consumption. Did you notice?

Of course. Is that why you posted this? Because you saw the word
consumption? What a simple minded fool you are.

that the piston rings have seated properly to the cylinder wall. When
the piston rings are broken in or seated, they do not allow combustion
gases to escape the combustion chamber past the piston rings into the
crankcase section of the engine. This lack of "blow-by" keeps your
engine running cleaner and cooler by preventing hot combustion gases
and by-products from entering the crankcase section of the engine.
Excessive "blow-by" will cause the crankcase section of the engine to
become pressurized and contaminated with combustion gases, which in
turn will force normal oil vapors out of the engine's breather,
causing the engine to consume excessive amounts of oil. In addition to
sealing combustion gases in the combustion chamber, piston rings must
also manage the amount of oil present on the cylinder walls for
lubrication. If the rings do not seat properly, they cannot perform

Notice it said that the job of the rings is to manage the amount of oil
present on the cylinder walls for lubrication, not wipe all the oil away
as you have said.

Where does it say that? I can't find ANYWHERE where it says "the job
of the rings is to manage the amount of oil present on the cylinder
walls for lubrication, not wipe all the oil away". Now, would you say
that if you had enough of a seal to "seal combustion gases in the
combustion chamber", that oil would get past that seal? Absolutely
NOT.

Your stupidity is now approaching the point of absurdity. You can't
even read what you posted. And now, I quote directly from it only a few
sentences above the quote and you say you can't find it? Here is the
direct quote from YOUR cite:

"In addition to sealing combustion gases in the combustion chamber,
piston rings must also manage the amount of oil present on the cylinder
walls for lubrication"

If you can't find that sentence in what YOU posted, then we know you
don't know how to read or to search for text.

this function and will allow excessive amounts of oil to accumulate on
the cylinder wall surfaces. This oil is burned each and every time the
cylinder fires. The burning of this oil, coupled with "blow-by"
induced engine breathing, are reasons that an engine that hasn't been
broken in will consume more than its share of oil.

Notice that it says if it burns excessive amounts of oil, it's
*consuming* more than it's share of oil, not that consuming no oil is
the normal case. The normal case is consuming it's share of oil, by
burning the non-excessive oil from the cylinder wall surfaces.

Again, consumption. Read it please.

Yes, it says the engine will consume more than it's share of oil by
BURNING it, both from the cylinder walls and from "blow-by" that gets
reintroduced to the combustion chamber through the breather. Do you not
see that? Sheesh.

When a cylinder is overhauled or repaired the surface of it's walls
are honed with abrasive stones to produce a rough surface that will
help wear the piston rings in. This roughing up of the surface is
known as "cross-hatching". A cylinder wall that has been properly
"cross hatched" has a series of minute peaks and valleys cut into its
surface. The face or portion of the piston ring that interfaces with
the cross hatched cylinder wall is tapered to allow only a small
portion of the ring to contact the honed cylinder wall. When the
engine is operated, the tapered portion of the face of the piston ring
rubs against the coarse surface of the cylinder wall causing wear on
both objects. At the point where the top of the peaks produced by the
honing operation become smooth and the tapered portion of the piston
ring wears flat break in has occurred.

When the engine is operating, a force known as Break Mean Effective
Pressure or B.M.E.P is generated within the combustion chamber.
B.M.E.P. is the resultant force produced from the controlled burning
of the fuel air mixture that the engine runs on. The higher the power
setting the engine is running at, the higher the B.M.E.P. is and
conversely as the power setting is lowered the B.M.E.P. becomes less.

B.M.E.P is an important part of the break in process. When the engine
is running, B.M.E.P. is present in the cylinder behind the piston
rings and it's force pushes the piston ring outward against the coarse
honed cylinder wall. The higher the B.M.E.P, the harder the piston
ring is pushed against the wall. The surface temperature at the piston
ring face and cylinder wall interface will be greater with high
B.M.E.P. than with low B.M.E.P. This is because we are pushing the
ring harder against the rough cylinder wall surface causing high
amounts of friction and thus heat. The primary deterrent of break in
is this heat. Allowing to much heat to build up at the ring to
cylinder wall interface will cause the lubricating oil that is present
to break down and glaze the cylinder wall surface. This glaze will

Apparently there must be oil present on the cylinder wall even on a new
engine being broken in.

That's the reason for break in....jeez!

You think oil present on the cylinder wall of a new engine is the reason
for breakin? Wow, are you confused.

[rest of breakin stuff snipped since it's not relavent to oil control]

Next time, if you're going to provide a citation, you should really
think about providing one that supports your case, not one that supports
mine. Of course, you're probably sooooo stupid you didn't even
recognize who's case it supports. You probably just saw buzzwords like
"rings" and "manage the amount of oil" and assumed, like the stupid
idiot you are, that it was something which would prove your point.
Well, it did prove one thing: you don't know how to read.

Haahaa!! What a dolt. Now, how about YOU read. You are so wrapped up
in trying to be correct, that you see things that simply aren't there.

All I can say is WOW. You must not have even read your own cite if you
can't even find the parts I quoted from it.

Steve

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Whenever an engine's piston rings are replaced whether in part or in
entirety it is necessary to break in the engine. Piston rings are
replaced at a complete engine overhaul or repair, top overhaul or
single cylinder overhaul or repair.

When we refer to engine or cylinder break in, we are talking about the
physical mating of the engine's piston rings to it's corresponding
cylinder wall. That is, we want to physically wear the new piston
rings into the cylinder wall until a compatible seal between the two
is achieved.

Proper engine break in will produce an engine that achieves maximum
power output with the least amount of oil consumption due to the fact

Notice it said LEAST amount, not none.

Notice it said consumption. Did you notice?

Of course. Is that why you posted this? Because you saw the word
consumption? What a simple minded fool you are.

Okay, NOW we're getting somewhere. Please try to follow. DO you still
contend that consumption and burned mean the same thing? Yes or no.

that the piston rings have seated properly to the cylinder wall. When
the piston rings are broken in or seated, they do not allow combustion
gases to escape the combustion chamber past the piston rings into the
crankcase section of the engine. This lack of "blow-by" keeps your
engine running cleaner and cooler by preventing hot combustion gases
and by-products from entering the crankcase section of the engine.
Excessive "blow-by" will cause the crankcase section of the engine to
become pressurized and contaminated with combustion gases, which in
turn will force normal oil vapors out of the engine's breather,
causing the engine to consume excessive amounts of oil. In addition to
sealing combustion gases in the combustion chamber, piston rings must
also manage the amount of oil present on the cylinder walls for
lubrication. If the rings do not seat properly, they cannot perform

Notice it said that the job of the rings is to manage the amount of oil
present on the cylinder walls for lubrication, not wipe all the oil away
as you have said.

Where does it say that? I can't find ANYWHERE where it says "the job
of the rings is to manage the amount of oil present on the cylinder
walls for lubrication, not wipe all the oil away". Now, would you say
that if you had enough of a seal to "seal combustion gases in the
combustion chamber", that oil would get past that seal? Absolutely
NOT.

Your stupidity is now approaching the point of absurdity. You can't
even read what you posted. And now, I quote directly from it only a few
sentences above the quote and you say you can't find it? Here is the
direct quote from YOUR cite:

"In addition to sealing combustion gases in the combustion chamber,
piston rings must also manage the amount of oil present on the cylinder
walls for lubrication"

HOW IN THE HELL can you read that, and then conclude, that the rings
leave oil to be burned? It says......M A N A G E, get it? That means
in a sense to keep it at a minimum, or not at all. NOW, you stated
above that the post said "the job of the rings is to manage the amount
of oil present on the cylinder
walls for lubrication, not wipe all the oil away". It does not, in
fact say that. You've added the "not wipe all the oil away". YOU said
that. The cite did not.


this function and will allow excessive amounts of oil to accumulate on
the cylinder wall surfaces. This oil is burned each and every time the
cylinder fires. The burning of this oil, coupled with "blow-by"
induced engine breathing, are reasons that an engine that hasn't been
broken in will consume more than its share of oil.

Notice that it says if it burns excessive amounts of oil, it's
*consuming* more than it's share of oil, not that consuming no oil is
the normal case. The normal case is consuming it's share of oil, by
burning the non-excessive oil from the cylinder wall surfaces.

Again, consumption. Read it please.

Yes, it says the engine will consume more than it's share of oil by
BURNING it, both from the cylinder walls and from "blow-by" that gets
reintroduced to the combustion chamber through the breather. Do you not
see that? Sheesh.

When a cylinder is overhauled or repaired the surface of it's walls
are honed with abrasive stones to produce a rough surface that will
help wear the piston rings in. This roughing up of the surface is
known as "cross-hatching". A cylinder wall that has been properly
"cross hatched" has a series of minute peaks and valleys cut into its
surface. The face or portion of the piston ring that interfaces with
the cross hatched cylinder wall is tapered to allow only a small
portion of the ring to contact the honed cylinder wall. When the
engine is operated, the tapered portion of the face of the piston ring
rubs against the coarse surface of the cylinder wall causing wear on
both objects. At the point where the top of the peaks produced by the
honing operation become smooth and the tapered portion of the piston
ring wears flat break in has occurred.

When the engine is operating, a force known as Break Mean Effective
Pressure or B.M.E.P is generated within the combustion chamber.
B.M.E.P. is the resultant force produced from the controlled burning
of the fuel air mixture that the engine runs on. The higher the power
setting the engine is running at, the higher the B.M.E.P. is and
conversely as the power setting is lowered the B.M.E.P. becomes less.

B.M.E.P is an important part of the break in process. When the engine
is running, B.M.E.P. is present in the cylinder behind the piston
rings and it's force pushes the piston ring outward against the coarse
honed cylinder wall. The higher the B.M.E.P, the harder the piston
ring is pushed against the wall. The surface temperature at the piston
ring face and cylinder wall interface will be greater with high
B.M.E.P. than with low B.M.E.P. This is because we are pushing the
ring harder against the rough cylinder wall surface causing high
amounts of friction and thus heat. The primary deterrent of break in
is this heat. Allowing to much heat to build up at the ring to
cylinder wall interface will cause the lubricating oil that is present
to break down and glaze the cylinder wall surface. This glaze will

Apparently there must be oil present on the cylinder wall even on a new
engine being broken in.

That's the reason for break in....jeez!

You think oil present on the cylinder wall of a new engine is the reason
for breakin? Wow, are you confused.

Oh, my god, you are WAY beyond stupid!!!! What an ignorant statement.
You have JUST shown in one statement how much you DON'T know about
engines. The reason for break in, which is clearly stated in the post,
is to make an adequate seal betweeen the rings and cylinder wall. Did
the B.M.E.P. even hit that pea brain of yours? Apparently not. Again,
please tell me, if the rings can seal well enough to keep gases out of
the crankcase, which are sometimes in the area of 100 p.s.i., and
molecularly much smaller than oil, how can the oil, with larger
molecules, and under less pressure, make there way INTO the chamber?
Let's see, gases, mostly air, can't get past the rings under 100
p.s.i. but oil, at about 35 p.s.i. can....interesting.



All I can say is WOW. You must not have even read your own cite if you
can't even find the parts I quoted from it.

Again, show me where it says that the job of the rings is "not to wipe
all the oil away". Where IS that? Your getting so good a spinning, you
should go help your president.