On 9/28/2018 2:52 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 12:31:47 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/28/2018 12:17 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:56:19 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/28/2018 7:51 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 07:30:25 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 13:14:50 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote:

You’d made mention that you had to work on it? What happened?

My 120vac/12vdc converter went out. The 12v lights got dimmer and dimmer. I checked the fuses in the
converter, but they were good. The RV battery was down to a bit over 10v. We got through the night
OK, 'cause the heat pump uses 120v. But, the next morning I had to get some help pushing the slides
in as the RV battery, even with the truck connected wouldn't do it. Luckily, there was enough juice
in the system to raise the trailer enough to hook up, but those motors were running pretty slow.

Got home and tested the converter, which should have been putting out about 13.6v. It was putting
out about 7.5v. Got a new one, a 65amp, to replace the 55amp. Then I noticed a weird plug on the end
of the new converter. It's a 20amp plug. I'm thinking 'Oh ****, this won't work'. Then I tried to
see where the old converter was plugged in. The receptacle is on the underside of the distribution
center for the RV, which is behind the furnace in the 'basement' of the RV and not accessible to a
normal-sized person. So I had to remove the distribution center (where all the fuses and breakers
are). Got that done, and I was able to remove the old converter plug. Luckily the receptacle takes
either the 15amp or the 20amp plug.

Today I'll try to get the new one plugged in. First I have to run a line down under the distribution
center, tie the new plug to it and pull the plug up. Then it'll be touch and feel to try to get the
plug into the receptacle.

Hope it works.

===

Sounds like a boat project where every solution requires working
througl multiple layers of other issues.

On a boat, converter/chargrers are almost always hard wired to the
breaker panel. Would that work for you?

On another note, your house battery which got drawn down to 10 volts
is almost certainly toast and should probably be replaced.


Yup.

One other thing I'd check is the wiring gauge from the breaker box to to
where ever the new converter plugs in. If the original breaker was
15 amp and it was replaced with a 20 amp, the wiring itself could
technically be undersized. Probably not an issue but worth checking.
15 amp wiring is typically 14 ga. 20 amp wiring should be at least 12 ga.

If they put a NEMA 5-20 receptacle in there I hope they had sense to
use 12ga wire. Unfortunately RVs are not HUD dwellings so they do not
get inspected to the same standards. The NEC does not apply at all.
If it makes you feel better 15ga wire is actually rated at 20a but
they add the 80% safety factor in on "small conductors" by limiting
the breaker size.
You actually get to exploit that higher rating in some hard wired
circuits, usually motors or welders. That is why you can see a motor
circuit with 15 ga wire and a 40a breaker. (exploiting a few
exceptions)



Never heard of 15 ga wire.

14



I figured you meant 14. Just busting your chops.

On 9/28/2018 3:09 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 12:33:34 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/28/2018 12:21 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 10:01:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/28/2018 9:57 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:56:19 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 9/28/2018 7:51 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 07:30:25 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 13:14:50 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote:

You’d made mention that you had to work on it? What happened?

My 120vac/12vdc converter went out. The 12v lights got dimmer and dimmer. I checked the fuses in the
converter, but they were good. The RV battery was down to a bit over 10v. We got through the night
OK, 'cause the heat pump uses 120v. But, the next morning I had to get some help pushing the slides
in as the RV battery, even with the truck connected wouldn't do it. Luckily, there was enough juice
in the system to raise the trailer enough to hook up, but those motors were running pretty slow.

Got home and tested the converter, which should have been putting out about 13.6v. It was putting
out about 7.5v. Got a new one, a 65amp, to replace the 55amp. Then I noticed a weird plug on the end
of the new converter. It's a 20amp plug. I'm thinking 'Oh ****, this won't work'. Then I tried to
see where the old converter was plugged in. The receptacle is on the underside of the distribution
center for the RV, which is behind the furnace in the 'basement' of the RV and not accessible to a
normal-sized person. So I had to remove the distribution center (where all the fuses and breakers
are). Got that done, and I was able to remove the old converter plug. Luckily the receptacle takes
either the 15amp or the 20amp plug.

Today I'll try to get the new one plugged in. First I have to run a line down under the distribution
center, tie the new plug to it and pull the plug up. Then it'll be touch and feel to try to get the
plug into the receptacle.

Hope it works.

===

Sounds like a boat project where every solution requires working
througl multiple layers of other issues.

On a boat, converter/chargrers are almost always hard wired to the
breaker panel. Would that work for you?

On another note, your house battery which got drawn down to 10 volts
is almost certainly toast and should probably be replaced.


Yup.

One other thing I'd check is the wiring gauge from the breaker box to to
where ever the new converter plugs in. If the original breaker was
15 amp and it was replaced with a 20 amp, the wiring itself could
technically be undersized. Probably not an issue but worth checking.
15 amp wiring is typically 14 ga. 20 amp wiring should be at least 12 ga.

The converter plugs directly into a receptacle on the back of the distribution center (breaker box).
The receptacle is designed for either a 15amp or 20amp plug, and the same distribution center is
sold for the 55amp and the 65amp converters.

I think I'm safe. Hopefully.


I misunderstood. Yes, if your RV was built to code, (which it most
likely was) you are fine.

Inside a piece of listed equipment they do not have to follow 310-15.
They just have to convince the NRTL (U/L, TUV et al) a fire would be
totally contained. You will frequently see wire smaller than what
would be kosher in a branch circuit.



Beats me. I know nothing about codes for RV's.

All I know is that 14 ga is rated for 15 amps and 12 ga is rated for 20.
:-)


Don't believe everything you "know" ;-)

Depending on the termination #14 can be as high as 25a and 12 can be
30. Up until the 14 code #14 was rated at 20 even in the 60s column.
Most people did not notice the change.
The 15 and 20a thing come from the breaker you are allowed to use and
is basically aimed at receptacle circuits where the installer has no
control over what the user might plug in. They build the 80% safety
factor into the max breaker size. They know people will keep plugging
things in until the breaker trips and then unplug the clock.
"RVs" are pretty much self regulated but if it is a "HUD" unit the
government gets involved and you have to use the NEC rules. That is
why a lot of things that look like house trailers get titled as RVs.



I was not referring to special cases. I was referring only to what
what the ratings for the various gauges are in the National Electrical
Code. In specialized equipment, like the systems my company made
there where minor variances for wire insulation type (THHN, etc.) and if
it was multi-strand or solid (we never used solid), length of wire run,
etc, but in general 14 was ok for up to 15 amps and 12 was good for 20.

One thing I learned recently (I am not an electrician) is you can put
multiple, 15 amp receptacles on one 20 amp branch circuit with a 20 amp
breaker. Wire to each must be 12 ga. Makes no sense to me but
apparently it's allowed by code.

On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 15:46:45 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 9/28/2018 3:11 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 13:14:30 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 12:21:44 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 10:01:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/28/2018 9:57 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:56:19 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 9/28/2018 7:51 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 07:30:25 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 13:14:50 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote:

You’d made mention that you had to work on it? What happened?

My 120vac/12vdc converter went out. The 12v lights got dimmer and dimmer. I checked the fuses in the
converter, but they were good. The RV battery was down to a bit over 10v. We got through the night
OK, 'cause the heat pump uses 120v. But, the next morning I had to get some help pushing the slides
in as the RV battery, even with the truck connected wouldn't do it. Luckily, there was enough juice
in the system to raise the trailer enough to hook up, but those motors were running pretty slow.

Got home and tested the converter, which should have been putting out about 13.6v. It was putting
out about 7.5v. Got a new one, a 65amp, to replace the 55amp. Then I noticed a weird plug on the end
of the new converter. It's a 20amp plug. I'm thinking 'Oh ****, this won't work'. Then I tried to
see where the old converter was plugged in. The receptacle is on the underside of the distribution
center for the RV, which is behind the furnace in the 'basement' of the RV and not accessible to a
normal-sized person. So I had to remove the distribution center (where all the fuses and breakers
are). Got that done, and I was able to remove the old converter plug. Luckily the receptacle takes
either the 15amp or the 20amp plug.

Today I'll try to get the new one plugged in. First I have to run a line down under the distribution
center, tie the new plug to it and pull the plug up. Then it'll be touch and feel to try to get the
plug into the receptacle.

Hope it works.

===

Sounds like a boat project where every solution requires working
througl multiple layers of other issues.

On a boat, converter/chargrers are almost always hard wired to the
breaker panel. Would that work for you?

On another note, your house battery which got drawn down to 10 volts
is almost certainly toast and should probably be replaced.


Yup.

One other thing I'd check is the wiring gauge from the breaker box to to
where ever the new converter plugs in. If the original breaker was
15 amp and it was replaced with a 20 amp, the wiring itself could
technically be undersized. Probably not an issue but worth checking.
15 amp wiring is typically 14 ga. 20 amp wiring should be at least 12 ga.

The converter plugs directly into a receptacle on the back of the distribution center (breaker box).
The receptacle is designed for either a 15amp or 20amp plug, and the same distribution center is
sold for the 55amp and the 65amp converters.

I think I'm safe. Hopefully.


I misunderstood. Yes, if your RV was built to code, (which it most
likely was) you are fine.

Inside a piece of listed equipment they do not have to follow 310-15.
They just have to convince the NRTL (U/L, TUV et al) a fire would be
totally contained. You will frequently see wire smaller than what
would be kosher in a branch circuit.

Well, keep in mind that all the wiring was done by Amish workers at the factory. They don't use
electricity. So....there you go!

I don't understand totally what you're getting at. Do you think there's a good possibility that the
converter has a 120v power cord insufficient to take the load?

I am sure it is OK for the load. I was just pointing out they may not
have to use the same rules you would need in a regular branch circuit
where they do not have a clue what you might be plugging in.



John, in a house circuit a 20 amp wall receptacle has two vertical slots
and a horizontal one extending out from one of them. Could be a single
or a double and looks like this:

https://tinyurl.com/y8z2xo4j

A 15 amp receptacle does not have the horizontal slot.

In house wiring, a 20 amp receptacle should be wired using 12 ga wire (min).

15 amp requires 14 ga (min).

Don't know what the RV people do.

In the distribution center is a socket which accepts both plug styles. I will assume it is built to
take the load.

Mr. Luddite

- show quoted text -

"I was not referring to special cases. Â*I was referring only to whatÂ*
what the ratings for the various gauges are in the National ElectricalÂ*
Code. Â*In specialized equipment, like the systems my company madeÂ*
there where minor variances for wire insulation type (THHN, etc.) and ifÂ*
it was multi-strand or solid Â*(we never used solid), length of wire run,Â*
etc, but in general 14 was ok for up to 15 amps and 12 was good for 20.Â*

One thing I learned recently (I am not an electrician) is you can putÂ*
multiple, 15 amp receptacles on one 20 amp branch circuit with a 20 ampÂ*
breaker. Wire to each must be 12 ga. Â*Makes no sense to me butÂ*
apparently it's allowed by code."Â*



Wonder if they assume you won't have everything turned on at the same time?

On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 16:02:06 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/28/2018 3:09 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 12:33:34 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/28/2018 12:21 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 10:01:52 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 9/28/2018 9:57 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 08:56:19 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 9/28/2018 7:51 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 07:30:25 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Thu, 27 Sep 2018 13:14:50 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote:

You’d made mention that you had to work on it? What happened?

My 120vac/12vdc converter went out. The 12v lights got dimmer and dimmer. I checked the fuses in the
converter, but they were good. The RV battery was down to a bit over 10v. We got through the night
OK, 'cause the heat pump uses 120v. But, the next morning I had to get some help pushing the slides
in as the RV battery, even with the truck connected wouldn't do it. Luckily, there was enough juice
in the system to raise the trailer enough to hook up, but those motors were running pretty slow.

Got home and tested the converter, which should have been putting out about 13.6v. It was putting
out about 7.5v. Got a new one, a 65amp, to replace the 55amp. Then I noticed a weird plug on the end
of the new converter. It's a 20amp plug. I'm thinking 'Oh ****, this won't work'. Then I tried to
see where the old converter was plugged in. The receptacle is on the underside of the distribution
center for the RV, which is behind the furnace in the 'basement' of the RV and not accessible to a
normal-sized person. So I had to remove the distribution center (where all the fuses and breakers
are). Got that done, and I was able to remove the old converter plug. Luckily the receptacle takes
either the 15amp or the 20amp plug.

Today I'll try to get the new one plugged in. First I have to run a line down under the distribution
center, tie the new plug to it and pull the plug up. Then it'll be touch and feel to try to get the
plug into the receptacle.

Hope it works.

===

Sounds like a boat project where every solution requires working
througl multiple layers of other issues.

On a boat, converter/chargrers are almost always hard wired to the
breaker panel. Would that work for you?

On another note, your house battery which got drawn down to 10 volts
is almost certainly toast and should probably be replaced.


Yup.

One other thing I'd check is the wiring gauge from the breaker box to to
where ever the new converter plugs in. If the original breaker was
15 amp and it was replaced with a 20 amp, the wiring itself could
technically be undersized. Probably not an issue but worth checking.
15 amp wiring is typically 14 ga. 20 amp wiring should be at least 12 ga.

The converter plugs directly into a receptacle on the back of the distribution center (breaker box).
The receptacle is designed for either a 15amp or 20amp plug, and the same distribution center is
sold for the 55amp and the 65amp converters.

I think I'm safe. Hopefully.


I misunderstood. Yes, if your RV was built to code, (which it most
likely was) you are fine.

Inside a piece of listed equipment they do not have to follow 310-15.
They just have to convince the NRTL (U/L, TUV et al) a fire would be
totally contained. You will frequently see wire smaller than what
would be kosher in a branch circuit.



Beats me. I know nothing about codes for RV's.

All I know is that 14 ga is rated for 15 amps and 12 ga is rated for 20.
:-)


Don't believe everything you "know" ;-)

Depending on the termination #14 can be as high as 25a and 12 can be
30. Up until the 14 code #14 was rated at 20 even in the 60s column.
Most people did not notice the change.
The 15 and 20a thing come from the breaker you are allowed to use and
is basically aimed at receptacle circuits where the installer has no
control over what the user might plug in. They build the 80% safety
factor into the max breaker size. They know people will keep plugging
things in until the breaker trips and then unplug the clock.
"RVs" are pretty much self regulated but if it is a "HUD" unit the
government gets involved and you have to use the NEC rules. That is
why a lot of things that look like house trailers get titled as RVs.



I was not referring to special cases. I was referring only to what
what the ratings for the various gauges are in the National Electrical
Code. In specialized equipment, like the systems my company made
there where minor variances for wire insulation type (THHN, etc.) and if
it was multi-strand or solid (we never used solid), length of wire run,
etc, but in general 14 was ok for up to 15 amps and 12 was good for 20.

It is really not that special, typically just something that you can
predict, like a hard wired motor circuit. An example at your house is
the AC condenser.

One thing I learned recently (I am not an electrician) is you can put
multiple, 15 amp receptacles on one 20 amp branch circuit with a 20 amp
breaker. Wire to each must be 12 ga. Makes no sense to me but
apparently it's allowed by code.

The 12 ga is because there is a 20a breaker 240.4(D)
You can use multiple 15s because the receptacle itself is limited to
15 by the plug and they still need to be able to serve more than one.
Anything with a 15a plug is required to be able to handle 20
overcurrent (short circuit) protection without bursting into flames.
(18 ga fixture wire suffices). The other level of protection is
overload protection. That should be limited by the maximum load the
equipment can present. The conductors need to be able to handle 125%
of any continuous load. (again handled by our old friend 240.4(D)
with small conductors.)

On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 14:38:24 -0700 (PDT), True North wrote:

Mr. Luddite

- show quoted text -

"I was not referring to special cases. *I was referring only to what*
what the ratings for the various gauges are in the National Electrical*
Code. *In specialized equipment, like the systems my company made*
there where minor variances for wire insulation type (THHN, etc.) and if*
it was multi-strand or solid *(we never used solid), length of wire run,*
etc, but in general 14 was ok for up to 15 amps and 12 was good for 20.*

One thing I learned recently (I am not an electrician) is you can put*
multiple, 15 amp receptacles on one 20 amp branch circuit with a 20 amp*
breaker. Wire to each must be 12 ga. *Makes no sense to me but*
apparently it's allowed by code."*



Wonder if they assume you won't have everything turned on at the same time?

If everything gets turned on at the same time, the circuit breakers break or the fuses blow. That's
why they're there.

On Fri, 28 Sep 2018 14:38:24 -0700 (PDT), True North
wrote:

Mr. Luddite

- show quoted text -

"I was not referring to special cases. Â*I was referring only to whatÂ*
what the ratings for the various gauges are in the National ElectricalÂ*
Code. Â*In specialized equipment, like the systems my company madeÂ*
there where minor variances for wire insulation type (THHN, etc.) and ifÂ*
it was multi-strand or solid Â*(we never used solid), length of wire run,Â*
etc, but in general 14 was ok for up to 15 amps and 12 was good for 20.Â*

One thing I learned recently (I am not an electrician) is you can putÂ*
multiple, 15 amp receptacles on one 20 amp branch circuit with a 20 ampÂ*
breaker. Wire to each must be 12 ga. Â*Makes no sense to me butÂ*
apparently it's allowed by code."Â*



Wonder if they assume you won't have everything turned on at the same time?

That is called "load diversity" and why your service entrance cables
can be sized 83% lower than what your service disconnect breaker size
would dictate.