Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/4/2018 10:09 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:16:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

They have a "J" card in Massachusetts so there is usually going to be
a licensed guy on the job. Down here the guy with the license might
not even live in the state. That was even worse when you were in
Jupiter I imagine. The licensing got more strict in the 94-2002 time
frame as the repercussions of Andrew ground it's way through the
bureaucracy.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

There are 2 sides of that. Codes do keep changing but methods and
skills are getting easier, particularly in 1&2 family.
There are a lot of new products that a trained monkey could install
and wiring houses is becoming an assembly line were one crew just
hangs boxes, another crew strings wire and someone else terminates
them. Each guy does not have to have a lot of skill outside his
specialty. I saw this in action in our 4 plex and it goes really fast.
There wasn't a license to be seen with anyone there and only one of
them spoke much English. He was a pretty smart guy but not very
knowledgable about anything more than 1&2 family. When he found out I
was an inspector he had a bunch of generator questions because nobody
at his company had a clue ... including the "license".

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


If you use some switch discipline you might be able to use the main
breaker interlock style. I can run my house fairly normally and I only
have a 5.5KW but I also have 2 well pumps and a pool pump that eat a
lot of that.


We are doing it for the convenience of being able to plug the generator
in outside when needed (which is rarely) and then put away when not
needed. It's also to make it easy for my 80 year old neighbor who has
the same generator but knows next to nothing about "switch discipline".
Again, the main thing is to run the furnace in the winter.


I agree this is not as attractive with a 120v only generator but mine
does just plug in and runs a lot of my stuff. (No oven, no central air
and no hot water). As long as you do what your daddy used to tell you
and turn off a light when you are not using it, you do well on
everything else with a fairly small generator.



Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

How much trouble will it be to extend the circuits from the existing
panel?
That was one reason why I did not want to go the transfer switch
route. By going with the panel interlock I did not need to reroute
circuits and with my layout, there was actually no way to do it
without setting the generator right outside my bedroom window. It also
eliminated the problem of choosing a half dozen circuits I wanted to
use and losing the rest.



Fortunately both indoor power panels are located on walls directly
inside of where the outdoor transfer switch will be located. Extending
the circuits to be transferred will only be about four feet of wiring
each way. No big deal.

I understand how you do it ... I did that for a while after
Wilma in Florida with the bigger, gas guzzling 249v generator I had and
I didn't even use a panel interlock. Just shut the main off and fed
the generator power to the load side of the main. Doing that is fine
temporarily (although illegal) as long as you know what you are doing.
The transfer switch makes it easy and fool proof especially for my
neighbor.


I sort of wonder how my panel is setup. Has a warning there is a secondary
AC source. I have rooftop solar panels. The panel is designed to work
with solar panels. Maybe you just have to,turn off the circuit breakers
for the panels.

On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 22:31:01 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 10:09 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:16:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

They have a "J" card in Massachusetts so there is usually going to be
a licensed guy on the job. Down here the guy with the license might
not even live in the state. That was even worse when you were in
Jupiter I imagine. The licensing got more strict in the 94-2002 time
frame as the repercussions of Andrew ground it's way through the
bureaucracy.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

There are 2 sides of that. Codes do keep changing but methods and
skills are getting easier, particularly in 1&2 family.
There are a lot of new products that a trained monkey could install
and wiring houses is becoming an assembly line were one crew just
hangs boxes, another crew strings wire and someone else terminates
them. Each guy does not have to have a lot of skill outside his
specialty. I saw this in action in our 4 plex and it goes really fast.
There wasn't a license to be seen with anyone there and only one of
them spoke much English. He was a pretty smart guy but not very
knowledgable about anything more than 1&2 family. When he found out I
was an inspector he had a bunch of generator questions because nobody
at his company had a clue ... including the "license".

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


If you use some switch discipline you might be able to use the main
breaker interlock style. I can run my house fairly normally and I only
have a 5.5KW but I also have 2 well pumps and a pool pump that eat a
lot of that.


We are doing it for the convenience of being able to plug the generator
in outside when needed (which is rarely) and then put away when not
needed. It's also to make it easy for my 80 year old neighbor who has
the same generator but knows next to nothing about "switch discipline".
Again, the main thing is to run the furnace in the winter.


I agree this is not as attractive with a 120v only generator but mine
does just plug in and runs a lot of my stuff. (No oven, no central air
and no hot water). As long as you do what your daddy used to tell you
and turn off a light when you are not using it, you do well on
everything else with a fairly small generator.



Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

How much trouble will it be to extend the circuits from the existing
panel?
That was one reason why I did not want to go the transfer switch
route. By going with the panel interlock I did not need to reroute
circuits and with my layout, there was actually no way to do it
without setting the generator right outside my bedroom window. It also
eliminated the problem of choosing a half dozen circuits I wanted to
use and losing the rest.



Fortunately both indoor power panels are located on walls directly
inside of where the outdoor transfer switch will be located. Extending
the circuits to be transferred will only be about four feet of wiring
each way. No big deal.

I understand how you do it ... I did that for a while after
Wilma in Florida with the bigger, gas guzzling 249v generator I had and
I didn't even use a panel interlock. Just shut the main off and fed
the generator power to the load side of the main. Doing that is fine
temporarily (although illegal) as long as you know what you are doing.
The transfer switch makes it easy and fool proof especially for my
neighbor.

The interlock is just a legal way to do that same thing since your
back feed from the generator can't be turned un until you turn the
main off. The same is true when you go the other way.
My problem is the house panel is in our bedroom and the main panel is
in the garage. I want the generator on the other side of the garage.
That is at least 60 feet away, maybe more like 75 the way the wire has
to run through the garage and it is illegal to feed through the garage
from the house so it is even worse than that. You just can't get there
from here. Basically a regular transfer switch is not happening.
Where you are it is something that will make sense assuming the
generator is in a good spot for you (noise, CO etc) but you are still
limiting the circuits you can feed. I would be very selective in what
you put on the transfer switch and more is better, just because you
want to try to avoid dead zones in the house. General lighting does
not use a lot of power but it usually gets spread across a lot of
circuits. You can "practice" by turning off all the breakers you don't
think you need and spending an evening there. If you are stringing
extension cords around the house just for lights, TV, phone chargers
and such you haven't accomplished much. Your older neighbor may
actually have a smaller footprint in the house than you so it may not
be a problem at all for him. My FIL could live off of a single
extension cord with a plug strip on the end since his family room,
bedroom and bathroom only use about 500 square feet of a pretty big
house. The kitchen is right there too. with no real wall between it.

On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 03:04:12 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

I sort of wonder how my panel is setup. Has a warning there is a secondary
AC source. I have rooftop solar panels. The panel is designed to work
with solar panels. Maybe you just have to,turn off the circuit breakers
for the panels.

If you have a grid tie system the panels go to a back feed breaker on
the bus, usually at the bottom. There is no power from the collectors
if the grid fails but I think a small generator or even a good sized
inverter would tickle the inverter and bring them back to life. You
would still need a panel interlock for your generator/inverter.

On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:56:43 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:

On 10/4/18 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:35:36 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 5:23 PM, wrote:
On 4 Oct 2018 20:52:05 GMT, Keyser Soze wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:30:26 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:



Your statement that psychologists can work without a license really
just depends on what state they are in.


Once again, your educational limitations exceed your reach. If you are
not practicing, you do not need a license. "Work" is a term that opens
the door to many rooms, and in the case of psychologists, those rooms do
not have to involve working as a therapist.

If you are saying they can help design ad campaigns to appeal to a
certain demographic, you are right but if they are seeing patients in
Florida they need some kind of a license, even if they are just bar
tenders or hair dressers.


I've posted several times that if you are not seeing patients, you do not
need a license.

It does call into question how you work being a psychologist if you
are not seeing patients. What are you doing?
Cleaning the office? Answering the phone?


Your raising that question once again demonstrates your ignorance and
disdain for academic study.


How can you do an accredited academic study as a psychologist if not
dealing with patients?

Harry just got caught being wrong again and he is trying to tap dance
his way out of it ... again.
The M.O. is the usual one, insult and diversion.


Psychologists have professional employment opportunities that have
nothing to do with treating patients and if they are engaged in those
sorts of activities, there is no need in many of those fields to be
licensed. That you and others here are unaware of that is a reflection
of your ignorance and intellectual laziness. Just to pick two examples,
in many states, industrial and organizational psychologists do not have
to be licensed. If they are not engaged in individual or group practice
on the side, professors of psychology typically don't have to be
licensed in psychology.

How do you do an accredited academic psychology study if you are not
licensed? Let's say your dissertation involves surveying attitudes
towards X, Y, or Z, and you design the survey, pick the audience, mail
the survey to recipients, get the completed surveys back, code the
results and analyze them. You typically need academic credentials to
have the survey accepted, but you don't have to be licensed.

And once again, Fretwell, you have demonstrated why it makes no sense to
"debate" you.


You're describing a statistician, which, if you'll be honest, is what your non-patient-treating
psychologists really are.

On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


Does your furnace fan motor take less than 1600 watts? I'd not thought of powering mine with the
small generator, which I've sold, by the way. I like that idea of transfer switches. I'll have to
tell son-in-law down in GA about that.

On 10/4/2018 11:45 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 22:31:01 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 10:09 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:16:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

They have a "J" card in Massachusetts so there is usually going to be
a licensed guy on the job. Down here the guy with the license might
not even live in the state. That was even worse when you were in
Jupiter I imagine. The licensing got more strict in the 94-2002 time
frame as the repercussions of Andrew ground it's way through the
bureaucracy.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

There are 2 sides of that. Codes do keep changing but methods and
skills are getting easier, particularly in 1&2 family.
There are a lot of new products that a trained monkey could install
and wiring houses is becoming an assembly line were one crew just
hangs boxes, another crew strings wire and someone else terminates
them. Each guy does not have to have a lot of skill outside his
specialty. I saw this in action in our 4 plex and it goes really fast.
There wasn't a license to be seen with anyone there and only one of
them spoke much English. He was a pretty smart guy but not very
knowledgable about anything more than 1&2 family. When he found out I
was an inspector he had a bunch of generator questions because nobody
at his company had a clue ... including the "license".

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


If you use some switch discipline you might be able to use the main
breaker interlock style. I can run my house fairly normally and I only
have a 5.5KW but I also have 2 well pumps and a pool pump that eat a
lot of that.


We are doing it for the convenience of being able to plug the generator
in outside when needed (which is rarely) and then put away when not
needed. It's also to make it easy for my 80 year old neighbor who has
the same generator but knows next to nothing about "switch discipline".
Again, the main thing is to run the furnace in the winter.


I agree this is not as attractive with a 120v only generator but mine
does just plug in and runs a lot of my stuff. (No oven, no central air
and no hot water). As long as you do what your daddy used to tell you
and turn off a light when you are not using it, you do well on
everything else with a fairly small generator.



Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

How much trouble will it be to extend the circuits from the existing
panel?
That was one reason why I did not want to go the transfer switch
route. By going with the panel interlock I did not need to reroute
circuits and with my layout, there was actually no way to do it
without setting the generator right outside my bedroom window. It also
eliminated the problem of choosing a half dozen circuits I wanted to
use and losing the rest.



Fortunately both indoor power panels are located on walls directly
inside of where the outdoor transfer switch will be located. Extending
the circuits to be transferred will only be about four feet of wiring
each way. No big deal.

I understand how you do it ... I did that for a while after
Wilma in Florida with the bigger, gas guzzling 249v generator I had and
I didn't even use a panel interlock. Just shut the main off and fed
the generator power to the load side of the main. Doing that is fine
temporarily (although illegal) as long as you know what you are doing.
The transfer switch makes it easy and fool proof especially for my
neighbor.

The interlock is just a legal way to do that same thing since your
back feed from the generator can't be turned un until you turn the
main off. The same is true when you go the other way.
My problem is the house panel is in our bedroom and the main panel is
in the garage. I want the generator on the other side of the garage.
That is at least 60 feet away, maybe more like 75 the way the wire has
to run through the garage and it is illegal to feed through the garage
from the house so it is even worse than that. You just can't get there
from here. Basically a regular transfer switch is not happening.
Where you are it is something that will make sense assuming the
generator is in a good spot for you (noise, CO etc) but you are still
limiting the circuits you can feed. I would be very selective in what
you put on the transfer switch and more is better, just because you
want to try to avoid dead zones in the house. General lighting does
not use a lot of power but it usually gets spread across a lot of
circuits. You can "practice" by turning off all the breakers you don't
think you need and spending an evening there. If you are stringing
extension cords around the house just for lights, TV, phone chargers
and such you haven't accomplished much. Your older neighbor may
actually have a smaller footprint in the house than you so it may not
be a problem at all for him. My FIL could live off of a single
extension cord with a plug strip on the end since his family room,
bedroom and bathroom only use about 500 square feet of a pretty big
house. The kitchen is right there too. with no real wall between it.



The extension cord thing is what he (and I) did last year mainly to
run the refrigerator and a lamp or two. We lost cable as well, so
I had another extension cord run to a TV that I hooked up an antenna
to and was able to receive 20 something digital channels, either from
Boston or from Providence, RI. This was in a particularly cold period
and after two days it was starting to get chilly so I pulled the feed
wire for the furnace out of it's breaker in the power panel and
connected a "cheater" cord to it that ran off the generator. Worked
fine. I measured the current draw when the furnace and fan were running
with a clamp-on and it was just about 6 amps, well within the Honda's
max current rating of 13 amps. I didn't try but it probably could also
have run the refrigerator and a few LED lights as long as the
refrigerator compressor and furnace fan didn't try to start at the
same time.

It's really just a minor inconvenience anyway. Power failures of more
than an hour or so are very rare. The outdoor transfer switch just
makes it easier than running extension cords all over the place.

On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2018 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:16:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

They have a "J" card in Massachusetts so there is usually going to be
a licensed guy on the job. Down here the guy with the license might
not even live in the state. That was even worse when you were in
Jupiter I imagine. The licensing got more strict in the 94-2002 time
frame as the repercussions of Andrew ground it's way through the
bureaucracy.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

There are 2 sides of that. Codes do keep changing but methods and
skills are getting easier, particularly in 1&2 family.
There are a lot of new products that a trained monkey could install
and wiring houses is becoming an assembly line were one crew just
hangs boxes, another crew strings wire and someone else terminates
them. Each guy does not have to have a lot of skill outside his
specialty. I saw this in action in our 4 plex and it goes really fast.
There wasn't a license to be seen with anyone there and only one of
them spoke much English. He was a pretty smart guy but not very
knowledgable about anything more than 1&2 family. When he found out I
was an inspector he had a bunch of generator questions because nobody
at his company had a clue ... including the "license".

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


If you use some switch discipline you might be able to use the main
breaker interlock style. I can run my house fairly normally and I only
have a 5.5KW but I also have 2 well pumps and a pool pump that eat a
lot of that.


We are doing it for the convenience of being able to plug the generator
in outside when needed (which is rarely) and then put away when not
needed. It's also to make it easy for my 80 year old neighbor who has
the same generator but knows next to nothing about "switch discipline".
Again, the main thing is to run the furnace in the winter.


I agree this is not as attractive with a 120v only generator but mine
does just plug in and runs a lot of my stuff. (No oven, no central air
and no hot water). As long as you do what your daddy used to tell you
and turn off a light when you are not using it, you do well on
everything else with a fairly small generator.



Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

You're talking about something like this, right?

http://tinyurl.com/yaecwjem

I wonder how much an electrician would charge to install one. Might be a nice Christmas present for
the kids.

On 10/5/2018 7:01 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


Does your furnace fan motor take less than 1600 watts? I'd not thought of powering mine with the
small generator, which I've sold, by the way. I like that idea of transfer switches. I'll have to
tell son-in-law down in GA about that.



The total running current with the furnace oil pump and fan motor
running is just about 6 amps. There's a momentary starting current
spike when the fan motor first kicks on but the Honda handles that
fine. In fact, once the furnace is running the Honda will kick back
to it's "Eco" mode, running at a lower RPM.

On 10/5/2018 7:08 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2018 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:16:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

They have a "J" card in Massachusetts so there is usually going to be
a licensed guy on the job. Down here the guy with the license might
not even live in the state. That was even worse when you were in
Jupiter I imagine. The licensing got more strict in the 94-2002 time
frame as the repercussions of Andrew ground it's way through the
bureaucracy.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

There are 2 sides of that. Codes do keep changing but methods and
skills are getting easier, particularly in 1&2 family.
There are a lot of new products that a trained monkey could install
and wiring houses is becoming an assembly line were one crew just
hangs boxes, another crew strings wire and someone else terminates
them. Each guy does not have to have a lot of skill outside his
specialty. I saw this in action in our 4 plex and it goes really fast.
There wasn't a license to be seen with anyone there and only one of
them spoke much English. He was a pretty smart guy but not very
knowledgable about anything more than 1&2 family. When he found out I
was an inspector he had a bunch of generator questions because nobody
at his company had a clue ... including the "license".

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


If you use some switch discipline you might be able to use the main
breaker interlock style. I can run my house fairly normally and I only
have a 5.5KW but I also have 2 well pumps and a pool pump that eat a
lot of that.


We are doing it for the convenience of being able to plug the generator
in outside when needed (which is rarely) and then put away when not
needed. It's also to make it easy for my 80 year old neighbor who has
the same generator but knows next to nothing about "switch discipline".
Again, the main thing is to run the furnace in the winter.


I agree this is not as attractive with a 120v only generator but mine
does just plug in and runs a lot of my stuff. (No oven, no central air
and no hot water). As long as you do what your daddy used to tell you
and turn off a light when you are not using it, you do well on
everything else with a fairly small generator.



Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

You're talking about something like this, right?

http://tinyurl.com/yaecwjem

I wonder how much an electrician would charge to install one. Might be a nice Christmas present for
the kids.



I assume it is something like that one. I haven't seen it yet
but he's planning on installing them this weekend or next. Same company
(Reliance) but the version we are installing is 120 volt only (vs 240v)
and only has 4 circuits and breakers instead of 6.

On Fri, 5 Oct 2018 07:38:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/5/2018 7:08 AM, John H. wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 21:08:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/4/2018 8:52 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 20:16:22 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 7:41 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 17:27:12 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 4:49 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 13:42:33 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 12:51 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:03:05 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/4/2018 11:46 AM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/4/18 11:32 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Oct 2018 08:00:28 -0400, Keyser Soze wrote:


2. She is not a psychiatrist.

Not even a licensed psychologist in spite what she would have us
believe from her testimony.


And why would she have to be licensed? Is she working as a therapist?
And even if she were (she is not), she could work as one without a
license while seeking a license so long as she was working under the
supervision of a qualified licensed therapist. A professor or a
consultant can work as a psychologist without a license. Got it?


So can a carpenter or an electrician. So what?

Carpenters and electricians still need to work under someone's license
and there are a number of states that are now requiring everyone
handling wire to become licensed electricians (not sure about other
trades). Kentucky is having a lot of trouble because of their law.

https://www.ecmweb.com/training/license-survive

If you are not a member you won't see the whole article but I can
paste it here if you are interested.



I'd never consider having an "unlicensed" electrician do any major work.

I bet the guys who actually wired your house were not licensed,
certainly not the one in Jupiter. The company had a license but
individual wire men being licensed is far from universal. That is why
the Kentucky law is so significant.
In most states, anyone can call themselves an electrician, plumber,
carpenter or whatever and it is up to the licensed employer to
actually verify their skills. At the end of the day it is his license
on the line. In Florida there is usually only one licensed person per
enterprise and certainly only one listed on the corporate documents
(responsible for compliance).
In places like Chicago they did not have any licensing at all for
decades (it may have changed). Qualifying electricians was entirely up
to the IBEW.



I was not referring to helpers or apprentices. I was talking about who
is responsible for them as a licensed electrician.

They have a "J" card in Massachusetts so there is usually going to be
a licensed guy on the job. Down here the guy with the license might
not even live in the state. That was even worse when you were in
Jupiter I imagine. The licensing got more strict in the 94-2002 time
frame as the repercussions of Andrew ground it's way through the
bureaucracy.

Years ago it wasn't much of a big deal to do complete home wiring but
now-a-days there are so many code requirements and types of electrical
equipment that you really have to be up to speed on the latest codes
and gear.

There are 2 sides of that. Codes do keep changing but methods and
skills are getting easier, particularly in 1&2 family.
There are a lot of new products that a trained monkey could install
and wiring houses is becoming an assembly line were one crew just
hangs boxes, another crew strings wire and someone else terminates
them. Each guy does not have to have a lot of skill outside his
specialty. I saw this in action in our 4 plex and it goes really fast.
There wasn't a license to be seen with anyone there and only one of
them spoke much English. He was a pretty smart guy but not very
knowledgable about anything more than 1&2 family. When he found out I
was an inspector he had a bunch of generator questions because nobody
at his company had a clue ... including the "license".

I am lucky. My son-in-law is a licensed MA electrician. Anything I
need to know or get I just ask him. Some of the newer stuff is totally
unknown to me. Next week he and I are going to install a couple of
small transfer switches (one for me and one for my neighbor) that mount
*outside* on the house. It has a main and four breakers (15 amp). You
plug a portable generator (my Honda eu2000i) into the box, and transfer
power to the heating system in the event of a long term power outage.
I'll probably use another of the 15 amp circuits to run the refrigerator
and a LED light circuit or two. That's about all the little generator
can handle but it's enough to get by. Heat is the most important.


If you use some switch discipline you might be able to use the main
breaker interlock style. I can run my house fairly normally and I only
have a 5.5KW but I also have 2 well pumps and a pool pump that eat a
lot of that.


We are doing it for the convenience of being able to plug the generator
in outside when needed (which is rarely) and then put away when not
needed. It's also to make it easy for my 80 year old neighbor who has
the same generator but knows next to nothing about "switch discipline".
Again, the main thing is to run the furnace in the winter.


I agree this is not as attractive with a 120v only generator but mine
does just plug in and runs a lot of my stuff. (No oven, no central air
and no hot water). As long as you do what your daddy used to tell you
and turn off a light when you are not using it, you do well on
everything else with a fairly small generator.



Been doing it for years. The outside transfer switch just makes it more
convenient. Actually, my point was that there are many devices
available today that weren't around years ago. I had never heard of
an outside transfer switch like the one we are installing. My
son-in-law, being current on this stuff suggested it.

You're talking about something like this, right?

http://tinyurl.com/yaecwjem

I wonder how much an electrician would charge to install one. Might be a nice Christmas present for
the kids.



I assume it is something like that one. I haven't seen it yet
but he's planning on installing them this weekend or next. Same company
(Reliance) but the version we are installing is 120 volt only (vs 240v)
and only has 4 circuits and breakers instead of 6.

Their main source would be a 3.5KW generator, so the bigger one may work better for them. I'm also
going to buy a 3.5KW (http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3). I sure like the transfer switch idea. Didn't
even know they made such a thing.