On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:56:36 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 2:04 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:37:24 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/12/2018 5:49 AM, John H. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 05:04:47 -0000 (UTC), Bill wrote:

Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the
bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs
report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay
for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China



With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor
last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane
is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I
could take pictures.



I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably
need a bigger generator. :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave
off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main
reason they are so noisy.





My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a
long time, mostly heat water for coffee.



Even the bigger microwaves are only about 1200 watts. Shouldn't be a
problem for the 2000 watter.


John, the 1200 watt rating is the microwave output power, not the power
required to produce it. My 1200 watt microwave draws just over 16 amps
to run. 120v x 16 amps = 1920 watts which is over the continuous
output rating of the Honda (1600 watts). It means the Honda has to run
near or at it's "surge" capacity continuously in order to power the 1200
watt microwave.





I would figure most microwave units should be about 14 amps max. They are
designed to run on 15 amp circuits.

Max on a 15a circuit is 12a (1440w). There are a few exceptions but
none if it has a plug on it.



I am not a code expert but why then, when you go to Lowe's or Home Depot
are the wall receptacles marked as "15 amp" or "20 amp"?

I've always wired a 20 amp outlet with 12 ga romex and 15 amp with 14
ga. and use the appropriate breaker in the service panel. More often
than not I skip the 15 amp altogether and just wire for 20 amp.

Have the codes changed?

No.
A 20a has to be on 12ga but you can put a 15 on either as long as
there is more than one receptacle on the circuit. A duplex is 2.
There is no limit to how many you put on a circuit tho in residential.

Commercial has a 180va per duplex (90 per receptacle) rating for each
based on full circuit ampacity (not the 80%). I think Canada extends
that to residential.

The thinking in residential is receptacles are placed for convenience,
not actual load and most will not be used most of the time so you can
have all you want on a circuit. The NEC does not address "design".
Basically they are trying to avoid the need of extension cords and
cords running across doorways so the general rule is you are always
within 6' of a receptacle without crossing an opening. That includes
any wall space 24" or wider.
In the kitchen, on the counter top you are 2' from a receptacle.
This takes about 6-7 pages of fine print and pictures in the NEC to
describe. Damn lawyers ;-)
210.52 is one of the more confusing articles.

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 15:06:01 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

Plumbing is another story. I just don't have the knowledge or patience.
Done properly, electrons don't leak. Water does.

Cold water goes on the right and poop don't flow up hill. What's so
hard?
BTW a water leak won't kill you or burn down your house.

(sewer gas may be another thing tho)
The actual hardest part of plumbing is drains and vents. Get that
wrong and that sewer gas starts being an issue.
I do have more than a few plumbing CEUs since they still count for
your "electives" in continuing education. If they are free, I am there
;-)

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:09:14 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 11:26:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/12/2018 11:02 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:23:18 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

I happen to have that info handy because I looked it up last week when I
had to replace a dead microwave oven. Here's how it is figured:

A 1200 watt output microwave takes 10. The typical formula for this is..
P = VI.. I = P/V = 1200 /120 =10 A. Hence, one would think that the
answer is 10 A.. However, this formula applies only for DC current. For
AC current,. P=VI cos (theta). where theta is the phase difference
between V and I.. This phase difference is created by the inductances
inside the microwave oven.

===

Whoo hoo! 'Airree discovered Power Factor, well known to EEs of
course, which is why most high powered AC electrical devices are
rated in KVA instead of KW. For bonus points explain why inductors
create a phase difference between voltage and current.



Eli the ice man.

For even extra credit Harry, please explain when current leads voltage
and when voltage leads current and what types of loads causes this.

For our purposes of the microwave discussion, it can pretty much be
ignored anyway. Power Factor becomes a concern in manufacturing
plants when there are, as you say, many high powered electrical devices
to be used.


You'll have to give him some time to find a cut'n'pasteable response.

===

Heh, isn't that the truth. Cosine theta indeed! :-)

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 15:05:02 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:36:13 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 10/12/18 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:07:44 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 9:42 AM, True North wrote:

Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and the larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase model but I'm sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be kicking my butt.



This stuff is probably only interesting to nerds like me and Greg. We
both seem to get a kick out of trying to get the most for the least
in generators.

For most, I'd just recommend getting the biggest generator you can
afford or want and be happy with it. A whole house generator like
Harry's is really nice to have but for people like me it's more fun
trying to get by on the little ones, especially given that the need for
them is so rare.

Maybe after a few more winters, some long term outages (and more
miles on me) I may spring for a whole house generator. They
are popular and have come down in price somewhat but it still
kills me that they sit, unused, for months or years other than
to start up and run for 10 minutes once a week.


Of course Harry would agree for me it was just "cheap". I am $300 in
this one plus $100 for the propane kit. So far, between the original
owner and me it has been used once in 12-13 years.


We ain't gonna be able to run air conditioning, well pump, two
refrigerators, some lights, garage door opener, some other device, et
cetera, off a $400 generator. We see no reason to "rough it," as you
seem to like to do.

First "accessory" on my list when we build or buy in Hilton Head is a
whole house generator.

Yeah Mr Global Warming, thanks for pitching in ;-)

===

I hope 'Airree appreciates that Hilton Head is cold in the winter
time, too cold for outdoor activity much of the time.

On 10/12/18 5:49 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:09:14 -0400, John H.
wrote:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 11:26:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:

On 10/12/2018 11:02 AM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:23:18 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

I happen to have that info handy because I looked it up last week when I
had to replace a dead microwave oven. Here's how it is figured:

A 1200 watt output microwave takes 10. The typical formula for this is..
P = VI.. I = P/V = 1200 /120 =10 A. Hence, one would think that the
answer is 10 A.. However, this formula applies only for DC current. For
AC current,. P=VI cos (theta). where theta is the phase difference
between V and I.. This phase difference is created by the inductances
inside the microwave oven.

===

Whoo hoo! 'Airree discovered Power Factor, well known to EEs of
course, which is why most high powered AC electrical devices are
rated in KVA instead of KW. For bonus points explain why inductors
create a phase difference between voltage and current.



Eli the ice man.

For even extra credit Harry, please explain when current leads voltage
and when voltage leads current and what types of loads causes this.

For our purposes of the microwave discussion, it can pretty much be
ignored anyway. Power Factor becomes a concern in manufacturing
plants when there are, as you say, many high powered electrical devices
to be used.


You'll have to give him some time to find a cut'n'pasteable response.

===

Heh, isn't that the truth. Cosine theta indeed! :-)


It's of no interest to me.

On 10/12/18 5:56 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 15:05:02 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:36:13 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 10/12/18 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:07:44 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 9:42 AM, True North wrote:

Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and the larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase model but I'm sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be kicking my butt.



This stuff is probably only interesting to nerds like me and Greg. We
both seem to get a kick out of trying to get the most for the least
in generators.

For most, I'd just recommend getting the biggest generator you can
afford or want and be happy with it. A whole house generator like
Harry's is really nice to have but for people like me it's more fun
trying to get by on the little ones, especially given that the need for
them is so rare.

Maybe after a few more winters, some long term outages (and more
miles on me) I may spring for a whole house generator. They
are popular and have come down in price somewhat but it still
kills me that they sit, unused, for months or years other than
to start up and run for 10 minutes once a week.


Of course Harry would agree for me it was just "cheap". I am $300 in
this one plus $100 for the propane kit. So far, between the original
owner and me it has been used once in 12-13 years.


We ain't gonna be able to run air conditioning, well pump, two
refrigerators, some lights, garage door opener, some other device, et
cetera, off a $400 generator. We see no reason to "rough it," as you
seem to like to do.

First "accessory" on my list when we build or buy in Hilton Head is a
whole house generator.

Yeah Mr Global Warming, thanks for pitching in ;-)

===

I hope 'Airree appreciates that Hilton Head is cold in the winter
time, too cold for outdoor activity much of the time.


Been there in all four seasons. Fall and winter are great times to ride
Hilton Head's bike trails, enjoy horseback riding, and play tennis. 60's
during the daytime, usually, 40's to 50's in the late afternoon and
evening. Maybe that's too cold for a transplanted Florida pussy like
you, but I like those temps.

Wayne.B

- show quoted text -

===Â*

"I hope 'Airree appreciates that Hilton Head is cold in the winterÂ*
time, too cold for outdoor activity much of the time."


No such thing as "too cold for outdoor activity".
You just need the proper clothing or gear.
I thought you were from upstate New York?

On 10/12/2018 3:45 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:50:19 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 1:22 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 09:24:03 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


I need to correct some readings. The current draw of 16 amps was when
I was running the 1200 watt microwave on the generator. I realized it
may have been a higher current reading due to shape factor of the
AC waveform generated by the generator andif there was any voltage droop
due to the generator being loaded close to it's max. So, I just
measured the current it draws when powered by commercial power.

Voltage is 121 vac. Current draw is 14 amps. So, it's using 121v * 14
amperes to produce 1200 watts of microwave power output or 1694 watts
"in" to produce 1200 watts "out".

Very reasonable and believable readings to me.

Not sure about a Honda inverter but my Briggs did not have that ugly a
wave form at pretty much full load
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Waveform.jpg




I don't know the details of an inverter generator design but from what I
understand they are not dissimilar to a DC to AC inverter or switching
power supplies. Initially the output is a modified square wave but is
then smoothed into a decent sine wave. Honda and other manufacturers of
inverter generators make a big deal about this. There is no big
generator coil in an inverter.

No scope?


Nope. Lent it to a guy and never saw it again. Nice one too.
Tektronix 2445B dual trace that I bought on eBay for cheap bucks.
It worked fine.

If you search around Honda and some other inverter generator
manufacturers have posted images of the waveform for their generators.
Look pretty good.

On 10/12/2018 6:02 PM, Keyser Soze wrote:
On 10/12/18 5:56 PM, Wayne.B wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 15:05:02 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 13:36:13 -0400, Keyser Soze
wrote:

On 10/12/18 1:25 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 10:07:44 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 9:42 AM, True North wrote:

Struggled last January trying to decide between the EU2000i and
the larger 2800 inverter unit. Bought the nice little suitcase
model but I'm sure if we have another extended outage, I'll be
kicking my butt.



This stuff is probably only interesting to nerds like me and
Greg.Â* We
both seem to get a kick out of trying to get the most for the least
in generators.

For most, I'd just recommend getting the biggest generator you can
afford or want and be happy with it.Â* A whole house generator like
Harry's is really nice to have but for people like me it's more fun
trying to get by on the little ones, especially given that the
need for
them is so rare.

Maybe after a few more winters, some long term outages (and more
miles on me)Â* I may spring for a whole house generator.Â* They
are popular and have come down in price somewhat but it still
kills me that they sit, unused, for months or years other than
to start up and run for 10 minutes once a week.


Of course Harry would agree for me it was just "cheap". I am $300 in
this one plus $100 for the propane kit. So far, between the original
owner and me it has been used once in 12-13 years.


We ain't gonna be able to run air conditioning, well pump, two
refrigerators, some lights, garage door opener, some other device, et
cetera, off a $400 generator. We see no reason to "rough it," as you
seem to like to do.

First "accessory" on my list when we build or buy in Hilton Head is a
whole house generator.

Yeah Mr Global Warming, thanks for pitching inÂ* ;-)

===

I hope 'Airree appreciates that Hilton Head is cold in the winter
time, too cold for outdoor activity much of the time.


Been there in all four seasons. Fall and winter are great times to ride
Hilton Head's bike trails, enjoy horseback riding, and play tennis. 60's
during the daytime, usually, 40's to 50's in the late afternoon and
evening.Â* Maybe that's too cold for a transplanted Florida pussy like
you, but I like those temps.


Ah ... bike trails, horseback riding, tennis ... all appropriate
activities for people in their 70's - 80's.

On 10/12/2018 3:07 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 14:34:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 1:10 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2018 08:00:23 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/12/2018 1:04 AM, Bill wrote:
Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 10/11/2018 8:12 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 16:42:41 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 10/11/2018 3:40 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2018 14:11:23 -0400, John H.
wrote:


http://tinyurl.com/y7dezaq3

"The left is revving up attacks on capitalism just as workers on the
bottom rungs are beginning to
benefit from the booming U.S. economy. According to last week's jobs
report, unemployment has been
pushed back to its lowest level since 1969. Wages in blue-collar
industries, such as construction
and maintenance, are rising faster than for white-collar workers. Pay
for people without a college
education jumped almost 6 percent since last year -- triple the overall wage gain."

Gosh, I thought wage growth was stagnant.

There was an article in USA Today yesterday talking about .how wages
are going up across the board and some jobs are really taking off

BTW your link took me to Harbor Fright generators.

About that, why is my 5.5 KW Briggs 11 hp and theirs is 8?
They must have stronger horses in China



With no losses considered:

8 hp = 5.96Kw
11 hp = 8.2Kw

I completely forgot about a small generator I bought from a neighbor
last year. It was brand new, still in the box and she
decided to have a whole house generator installed instead. She
only wanted $200 for it but after looking it up I decided I'd be
ripping her off, so I gave her $300. It's rated at 4,750 peak watts
and 3800 watts continuous. Engine is 6.3 hp.

I put it together last spring and fired it up. Ran fine, was not
overly noisy (for a conventional type generator). It has electric
start which is nice and will run on gas or propane, although propane
is at a reduced output capacity. I ran it out of gas and stored it away
and, until just now, had forgotten I had it. It's a "Wren" that she got
from Home Depot:

https://tinyurl.com/ybef4hty

I keep hearing about the reduced output capacity on propane but I
don't see it. I will say fuel consumption is where the difference of
energy density shows up. At full load the gasoline consumption is
around 0.5 GPH and propane is more like 0.8 GPH although the gasoline
is easier to measure accurately. I am just going on a gauge on a 150
gallon tank and that is not very precise.
After a similar discussion on the real boat group I tested my
generator using my convection oven as the load.
This is 5402.7w running a 5500w generator on propane
http://gfretwell.com/Propaneproject/Onpropane.jpg
When I plugged in two 100w lights, it tripped the breaker before I
could take pictures.



I think any generator can temporarily exceed their rated capacity but
they may not last long if done on a regular basis. Windings and other
components will get hot and go "poof". It's not often that generators
are running all the time at full capacity and if they are, you probably
need a bigger generator. :-)

I mentioned before that the little Honda I have is rated for 2,000 watts
surge and 1600 watts continuous or 13.3 amps. It ran my large microwave
with a measured amperage draw of over 16 amps for a short time but as
soon as I realized how much current was being drawn I shut the microwave
off. I wouldn't do that on a regular basis. The circuit breaker on the
generator never tripped.

I've been looking around for a larger portable generator but I want one
with 4 poles instead of the typical 2 poles. 4 poles will allow the
engine to run at 1800 RPM to produce it's rated output at 60Hz instead
of the typical 3600 RPM in a 2 pole generator. 3600 RPM is the main
reason they are so noisy.





My Yamaha 2000 runs my Samsung camper microwave fine. Never ran it for a
long time, mostly heat water for coffee.


The Honda 2000 runs the smaller, counter-top microwave fine as well, but
it's only rated at 750 watts versus the 1200 watts that the over stove,
built in microwave is rated at. I purposely shopped for the lowest
wattage small microwave I could find and 750 watts seemed to be the
smallest. It still draws about 11 amps when running, so it needs 1320
watts of power to produce 750 watts of microwave power. 1320 watts is
within the Honda's rated continuous output of 1600 watts.

That's the thing. Can't confuse output power rating of the microwave
with the input required to produce it. The large microwave was drawing
slightly over 16 amps to produce 1200 watts of microwave power. That's
at least 1920 watts. The Honda is only rated for 1600 watts continuous
output and 2000 watts "surge". So to run the large microwave the Honda
was running near or at it's surge rating continuously. Not good.




That should have a 5-20 plug on it if it pulls 16a. I assume it is on
a dedicated 20a circuit.



It *is* on a dedicated 20a kitchen circuit although I was wrong about
it's microwave output power. It's 1000 watts, not 1200 as I had
previously thought.

As mentioned in another post the sticker indicates a service requirement
of 120vac at 1.64 Kw. Output is listed as 1000 watts. So, it
draws 13.666 amps running ... I measured 14 amps on house power, 16 amps
(briefly) on Honda power.

So, on house power: 1640 watts in, 1000 watts out. Makes sense to me.


640w of waste heat coming out the vent sounds high to me. The vent on
mine is barely warm. I had more waste heat coming out of my satellite
receiver.


What makes you think the extra 640 watts is "waste heat"?