ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

These guys say so....

http://brusselstimes.com/business/te...an-study-shows

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 09:25:01 -0700 (PDT), Tim
wrote:

These guys say so....

http://brusselstimes.com/business/te...an-study-shows

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
You could say solar fixes that but most of these cars will be on the
road when the sun is shining and get charged late at night when rates
are lowest.
I suppose you could put solar collectors on the roof of daytime
parking garages and charge a few cars.
Like most of these schemes, as long as there are not many of them,
they look good. A garage even less than half full of electric cars
would eat that solar energy far faster than it gets collected.
It is like those guys with a solar collector on the roof of their golf
cart. It is great if you only use it every other day, don't use it a
lot and keep it parked in the sun. My charger puts out 20a at around
40v (0.8KWH) and it takes ~8-9 hours to recharge the batteries.
The usable capacity of a typical 36v cart is 8KWH or more depending on
which battery you choose.
I bet Bill's Volt is close to 10x that. Certainly a Tesla would be
much more.

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.

===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.

===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.

===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.


===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.

===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.


===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.

===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.


===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)

Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.

===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.


===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)

Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)

That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

Power line follies (was cars)
 

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?

I have 20 amps down there now. It is not an issue.
The reality is 60 feet of rope light around the top of the lift is
perfect. That ends up being about 100 watts.
If I was still interested in trying to scavenge some power I might try
something with an LED but I doubt I could even get a glimmer out of
one.
I have pretty much given up and debunked a lot of the urban legends.
If anyone has another experiment, let me know. It is just a short walk
across the Ed Labrador Memorial Bridge now, not Bwana hacking through
the jungle like before. I am up there 4 or 5 times a day with the
Deuce man.
The setup is 1 delta high voltage line running 230kv and 2 delta
medium voltage lines running 26kv. It is about 70 feet off the ground
behind the house going up to more like 85' where it crosses the river.
Bring out your fables. I love science.

Power line follies (was cars)
 

wrote:
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be
the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?

I have 20 amps down there now. It is not an issue.
The reality is 60 feet of rope light around the top of the lift is
perfect. That ends up being about 100 watts.
If I was still interested in trying to scavenge some power I might try
something with an LED but I doubt I could even get a glimmer out of
one.
I have pretty much given up and debunked a lot of the urban legends.
If anyone has another experiment, let me know. It is just a short walk
across the Ed Labrador Memorial Bridge now, not Bwana hacking through
the jungle like before. I am up there 4 or 5 times a day with the
Deuce man.
The setup is 1 delta high voltage line running 230kv and 2 delta
medium voltage lines running 26kv. It is about 70 feet off the ground
behind the house going up to more like 85' where it crosses the river.
Bring out your fables. I love science.


Need more voltage. The 500kv lines that run down the center of California
induce lots of current in the parallel line. When a crop duster took out 5
towers, engineers thought an airplane would take out 4. Our friend worked
for the power company. A special crew works on the line. Has a faraday
cage suit. They shut down the downed line, reduced power in the parallel
line and grounded the don line a mile each side of the break. He said the
ground line at the tower by the break carried 200 amps.

Power line follies (was cars)
 

On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:39:30 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be
the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?

I have 20 amps down there now. It is not an issue.
The reality is 60 feet of rope light around the top of the lift is
perfect. That ends up being about 100 watts.
If I was still interested in trying to scavenge some power I might try
something with an LED but I doubt I could even get a glimmer out of
one.
I have pretty much given up and debunked a lot of the urban legends.
If anyone has another experiment, let me know. It is just a short walk
across the Ed Labrador Memorial Bridge now, not Bwana hacking through
the jungle like before. I am up there 4 or 5 times a day with the
Deuce man.
The setup is 1 delta high voltage line running 230kv and 2 delta
medium voltage lines running 26kv. It is about 70 feet off the ground
behind the house going up to more like 85' where it crosses the river.
Bring out your fables. I love science.


Need more voltage. The 500kv lines that run down the center of California
induce lots of current in the parallel line. When a crop duster took out 5
towers, engineers thought an airplane would take out 4. Our friend worked
for the power company. A special crew works on the line. Has a faraday
cage suit. They shut down the downed line, reduced power in the parallel
line and grounded the don line a mile each side of the break. He said the
ground line at the tower by the break carried 200 amps.

Why wouldn't it be somewhat proportional? I am not really able to see
much of anything beyond tickling a digital meter and that happens just
about anywhere.

Power line follies (was cars)
 

wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:39:30 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be
the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?

I have 20 amps down there now. It is not an issue.
The reality is 60 feet of rope light around the top of the lift is
perfect. That ends up being about 100 watts.
If I was still interested in trying to scavenge some power I might try
something with an LED but I doubt I could even get a glimmer out of
one.
I have pretty much given up and debunked a lot of the urban legends.
If anyone has another experiment, let me know. It is just a short walk
across the Ed Labrador Memorial Bridge now, not Bwana hacking through
the jungle like before. I am up there 4 or 5 times a day with the
Deuce man.
The setup is 1 delta high voltage line running 230kv and 2 delta
medium voltage lines running 26kv. It is about 70 feet off the ground
behind the house going up to more like 85' where it crosses the river.
Bring out your fables. I love science.


Need more voltage. The 500kv lines that run down the center of California
induce lots of current in the parallel line. When a crop duster took out 5
towers, engineers thought an airplane would take out 4. Our friend worked
for the power company. A special crew works on the line. Has a faraday
cage suit. They shut down the downed line, reduced power in the parallel
line and grounded the don line a mile each side of the break. He said the
ground line at the tower by the break carried 200 amps.

Why wouldn't it be somewhat proportional? I am not really able to see
much of anything beyond tickling a digital meter and that happens just
about anywhere.


Maybe exponential. Exponential falloff from the line. 500kv May have a
much bigger inductive presentation.

Power line follies (was cars)
 

On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 01:26:46 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:39:30 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be
the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?

I have 20 amps down there now. It is not an issue.
The reality is 60 feet of rope light around the top of the lift is
perfect. That ends up being about 100 watts.
If I was still interested in trying to scavenge some power I might try
something with an LED but I doubt I could even get a glimmer out of
one.
I have pretty much given up and debunked a lot of the urban legends.
If anyone has another experiment, let me know. It is just a short walk
across the Ed Labrador Memorial Bridge now, not Bwana hacking through
the jungle like before. I am up there 4 or 5 times a day with the
Deuce man.
The setup is 1 delta high voltage line running 230kv and 2 delta
medium voltage lines running 26kv. It is about 70 feet off the ground
behind the house going up to more like 85' where it crosses the river.
Bring out your fables. I love science.


Need more voltage. The 500kv lines that run down the center of California
induce lots of current in the parallel line. When a crop duster took out 5
towers, engineers thought an airplane would take out 4. Our friend worked
for the power company. A special crew works on the line. Has a faraday
cage suit. They shut down the downed line, reduced power in the parallel
line and grounded the don line a mile each side of the break. He said the
ground line at the tower by the break carried 200 amps.

Why wouldn't it be somewhat proportional? I am not really able to see
much of anything beyond tickling a digital meter and that happens just
about anywhere.


Maybe exponential. Exponential falloff from the line. 500kv May have a
much bigger inductive presentation.

The field drops as a square of the distance but the field strength you
start with should be proportional. I know this line is running at 100%
or more of design capacity because they are trying to upgrade it ,..
again.
The last time they did a directional bore because the gopher tortoises
have made it very hard to bring equipment down here.
By the time they identified all of the burrows and looked into what
the DEP wanted them to do, the directional bore was cheaper.
If anything there are more now. I have 5 individuals identified,
between my house and the river and there are almost a dozen active
burrows just from them. I doubt the people doing the surveys know as
much about these guys as I do tho. They probably think there are at
least 10 of them.
DEP is calling this patch critical habitat.

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 11:16:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.

===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.


===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)

Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)

That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

You aren't trying hard enough. :)

It would take a fairly long run parallel to those lines to get any induced power. That a *very* inefficient transformer.

The twist has nothing to do with it. It's not RF (wavelength) they are concerned with, it's a expanding and collapsing magnetic field at 60hz. Twisted pair is used primarily to greatly reduce *induced* interference, not to reduce radiated interference. Those conductors you are seeing aren't twisted pairs, but rather an efficient way to run a conductor of a specific CMA. Easier and more efficient to run a lazy spiral of three smaller conductors sharing the load than to run one that is their equal. That doesn't change their radiated magnetic footprint.

You're right about the 90 degree rule. I'd be more worried about the induced noise in the panels and their conductors, which may not be at 90 degrees..

Power line follies
 

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 20:15:34 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 11:16:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.

===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.


===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)

Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)

That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

You aren't trying hard enough. :)

It would take a fairly long run parallel to those lines to get any induced power. That a *very* inefficient transformer.

The twist has nothing to do with it. It's not RF (wavelength) they are concerned with, it's a expanding and collapsing magnetic field at 60hz. Twisted pair is used primarily to greatly reduce *induced* interference, not to reduce radiated interference. Those conductors you are seeing aren't twisted pairs, but rather an efficient way to run a conductor of a specific CMA. Easier and more efficient to run a lazy spiral of three smaller conductors sharing the load than to run one that is their equal. That doesn't change their radiated magnetic footprint.

You still haven't explained why they twist them. It would be easier to
just run them straight but it is obvious that they roll them about
every half mile.
I also believe the fields from 3 phases tend to cancel each other out.
If I put my clamp on ammeter around a cable carrying the current down
and back, I get zero and that is a lot closer coupled transformer than
anything I could do by stringing a wire along the ground.

You're right about the 90 degree rule. I'd be more worried about the induced noise in the panels and their conductors, which may not be at 90 degrees.

Since the whole grid is in sync, what "noise"? I lived my whole
computer career looking for noise and for the most part when we found
the enemy, it was us, RF from our switching power supplies (along with
some other PS schemes that were even noisier).

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?



===

Yes, there are lot's of solar powered garden lights that should do the
job, probably at less cost than trying to build a giant transformer.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 23:42:48 -0400,
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?



===

Yes, there are lot's of solar powered garden lights that should do the
job, probably at less cost than trying to build a giant transformer.

Hard to beat 12 ga copper ;-)

Power line follies (was cars)
 

On 4/24/2019 8:48 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:39:30 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be
the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?

I have 20 amps down there now. It is not an issue.
The reality is 60 feet of rope light around the top of the lift is
perfect. That ends up being about 100 watts.
If I was still interested in trying to scavenge some power I might try
something with an LED but I doubt I could even get a glimmer out of
one.
I have pretty much given up and debunked a lot of the urban legends.
If anyone has another experiment, let me know. It is just a short walk
across the Ed Labrador Memorial Bridge now, not Bwana hacking through
the jungle like before. I am up there 4 or 5 times a day with the
Deuce man.
The setup is 1 delta high voltage line running 230kv and 2 delta
medium voltage lines running 26kv. It is about 70 feet off the ground
behind the house going up to more like 85' where it crosses the river.
Bring out your fables. I love science.


Need more voltage. The 500kv lines that run down the center of California
induce lots of current in the parallel line. When a crop duster took out 5
towers, engineers thought an airplane would take out 4. Our friend worked
for the power company. A special crew works on the line. Has a faraday
cage suit. They shut down the downed line, reduced power in the parallel
line and grounded the don line a mile each side of the break. He said the
ground line at the tower by the break carried 200 amps.

Why wouldn't it be somewhat proportional? I am not really able to see
much of anything beyond tickling a digital meter and that happens just
about anywhere.



Because like RF, the high voltage lines produce a near field and then
a quickly diminishing "far field" as distance from the lines increases.
It's not proportional, is dependent on current flow and, at 60hz is not
anywhere as strong as at RF frequencies.

It's still something I think about though. The greatest risk is
at ionizing potentials that can cause immediate damage to living
cells. Non ionizing potentials may cause an affect, causing
cell molecules to vibrate (which is the whole idea behind
an MRI scan) but the jury is still out on damage due to long
term exposure.

Frankly, I am more concerned with the RF energy ... as low as it
is ... of a cell phone held up to your head to use.
There is much scientific controversy as to if long term exposure
constitutes a danger.


---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On 4/24/2019 11:42 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?



===

Yes, there are lot's of solar powered garden lights that should do the
job, probably at less cost than trying to build a giant transformer.


Nikola Tesla would disagree. :-)




---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Power line follies
 

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 11:35:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 20:15:34 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 11:16:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.

===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.


===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)

Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)

That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

You aren't trying hard enough. :)

It would take a fairly long run parallel to those lines to get any induced power. That a *very* inefficient transformer.

The twist has nothing to do with it. It's not RF (wavelength) they are concerned with, it's a expanding and collapsing magnetic field at 60hz. Twisted pair is used primarily to greatly reduce *induced* interference, not to reduce radiated interference. Those conductors you are seeing aren't twisted pairs, but rather an efficient way to run a conductor of a specific CMA. Easier and more efficient to run a lazy spiral of three smaller conductors sharing the load than to run one that is their equal. That doesn't change their radiated magnetic footprint.

You still haven't explained why they twist them. It would be easier to
just run them straight but it is obvious that they roll them about
every half mile.
I also believe the fields from 3 phases tend to cancel each other out.
If I put my clamp on ammeter around a cable carrying the current down
and back, I get zero and that is a lot closer coupled transformer than
anything I could do by stringing a wire along the ground.

You're right about the 90 degree rule. I'd be more worried about the induced noise in the panels and their conductors, which may not be at 90 degrees.

Since the whole grid is in sync, what "noise"? I lived my whole
computer career looking for noise and for the most part when we found
the enemy, it was us, RF from our switching power supplies (along with
some other PS schemes that were even noisier).

Since the twist is not electrical in nature (that I can imagine), I suspect the reason is mechanical. If the three conductors weren't twisted in some way, they'd just flop around.

Those solar panels aren't part of the grid, and have no "sync". Sunlight isn't 60 Hz. :)

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 07:41:44 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/24/2019 11:42 PM, wrote:
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?



===

Yes, there are lot's of solar powered garden lights that should do the
job, probably at less cost than trying to build a giant transformer.


Nikola Tesla would disagree. :-)

Tesla would point out, transformers only work if the windings only go
in one direction. If you are flowing current both ways they null.
(otherwise a GFCI would not work)
I think the net field from these 3p delta transmission lines is as
close to zero as the PoCo engineers can get.
OTOH the single phase medium voltage wye distribution feeding the
transformers on my street is not as efficient. A significant amount of
current is returning through the dirt.

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 23:45:18 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 23:42:48 -0400,
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?



===

Yes, there are lot's of solar powered garden lights that should do the
job, probably at less cost than trying to build a giant transformer.

Hard to beat 12 ga copper ;-)


===

If you have a couple of thousand feet laying around, that would be an
interesting experiment. That much copper would buy quite a few solar
lamps however.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Power line follies
 

On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 05:52:18 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Wednesday, April 24, 2019 at 11:35:11 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 20:15:34 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 11:16:47 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.

===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.


===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)

Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)

That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

You aren't trying hard enough. :)

It would take a fairly long run parallel to those lines to get any induced power. That a *very* inefficient transformer.

The twist has nothing to do with it. It's not RF (wavelength) they are concerned with, it's a expanding and collapsing magnetic field at 60hz. Twisted pair is used primarily to greatly reduce *induced* interference, not to reduce radiated interference. Those conductors you are seeing aren't twisted pairs, but rather an efficient way to run a conductor of a specific CMA. Easier and more efficient to run a lazy spiral of three smaller conductors sharing the load than to run one that is their equal. That doesn't change their radiated magnetic footprint.

You still haven't explained why they twist them. It would be easier to
just run them straight but it is obvious that they roll them about
every half mile.
I also believe the fields from 3 phases tend to cancel each other out.
If I put my clamp on ammeter around a cable carrying the current down
and back, I get zero and that is a lot closer coupled transformer than
anything I could do by stringing a wire along the ground.

You're right about the 90 degree rule. I'd be more worried about the induced noise in the panels and their conductors, which may not be at 90 degrees.

Since the whole grid is in sync, what "noise"? I lived my whole
computer career looking for noise and for the most part when we found
the enemy, it was us, RF from our switching power supplies (along with
some other PS schemes that were even noisier).

Since the twist is not electrical in nature (that I can imagine), I suspect the reason is mechanical. If the three conductors weren't twisted in some way, they'd just flop around.

"Flop around"? Each conductor is securely attached to insulators.
They are not physically twisted in a bundle, they just get an
electrical twist by having the phases change positions from pole to
pole. They call it transposition. It allows the lines to be balanced.
(Relative inductance to each other and to the environment around them)

Those solar panels aren't part of the grid, and have no "sync". Sunlight isn't 60 Hz. :)

The inverter will be grid tied so the transport to the house would be
in sync.

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 06:37:07 -0400 (EDT), Justan Ohlphart
wrote:

Wrote in message:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 09:25:01 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote:These guys say so....http://brusselstimes.com/business/te...tudy-showsThey are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electriccars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways. You could say solar fixes that but most of these cars will be on theroad when the sun is shining and get charged late at night when ratesare lowest. I suppose you could put solar collectors on the roof of daytimeparking garages and charge a few cars.Like most of these schemes, as long as there are not many of them,they look good. A garage even less than half full of electric carswould eat that solar energy far faster than it gets collected.It is like those guys with a solar collector on the roof of their golfcart. It is great if you only use it every other day, don't use it alot and keep it parked in the sun. My charger puts out 20a at around40v
(0.8KWH) and it takes ~8-9 hours to recharge the batteries.The usable capacity of a typical 36v cart is 8KWH or more depending onwhich battery you choose. I bet Bill's Volt is close to 10x that. Certainly a Tesla would bemuch more.
My Club Car uses six eight volt deep cycle batteries. Would it be
better to deplete the charge to 50% before recharging or, as some
say, recharge after each day's use, no matter the state of
discharge? They say my charger is a smart one but it's not smart
enough to avoid gassing off a lot of water.

===

I have a lot of experience using and abusing golf cart batteries - 8
of them in the inverter bank on our trawler. It's much better for the
batteries to recharge them after each use rather than wait for 50%
depletion. Greater depth of discharge equates directly to shorter
life.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Typical-cycle-life-curve-of-a-Trojan-battery-for-renewable-energy-applications-38_fig1_283807259

Do not over charge however. You really need a good multi-stage
charger to do this properly.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Power line follies (was cars)
 

On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 07:36:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/24/2019 8:48 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:39:30 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be
the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?

I have 20 amps down there now. It is not an issue.
The reality is 60 feet of rope light around the top of the lift is
perfect. That ends up being about 100 watts.
If I was still interested in trying to scavenge some power I might try
something with an LED but I doubt I could even get a glimmer out of
one.
I have pretty much given up and debunked a lot of the urban legends.
If anyone has another experiment, let me know. It is just a short walk
across the Ed Labrador Memorial Bridge now, not Bwana hacking through
the jungle like before. I am up there 4 or 5 times a day with the
Deuce man.
The setup is 1 delta high voltage line running 230kv and 2 delta
medium voltage lines running 26kv. It is about 70 feet off the ground
behind the house going up to more like 85' where it crosses the river.
Bring out your fables. I love science.


Need more voltage. The 500kv lines that run down the center of California
induce lots of current in the parallel line. When a crop duster took out 5
towers, engineers thought an airplane would take out 4. Our friend worked
for the power company. A special crew works on the line. Has a faraday
cage suit. They shut down the downed line, reduced power in the parallel
line and grounded the don line a mile each side of the break. He said the
ground line at the tower by the break carried 200 amps.

Why wouldn't it be somewhat proportional? I am not really able to see
much of anything beyond tickling a digital meter and that happens just
about anywhere.



Because like RF, the high voltage lines produce a near field and then
a quickly diminishing "far field" as distance from the lines increases.
It's not proportional, is dependent on current flow and, at 60hz is not
anywhere as strong as at RF frequencies.

It's still something I think about though. The greatest risk is
at ionizing potentials that can cause immediate damage to living
cells. Non ionizing potentials may cause an affect, causing
cell molecules to vibrate (which is the whole idea behind
an MRI scan) but the jury is still out on damage due to long
term exposure.

Frankly, I am more concerned with the RF energy ... as low as it
is ... of a cell phone held up to your head to use.
There is much scientific controversy as to if long term exposure
constitutes a danger.


Because of the balancing effect of a 3 phase delta I am far less
concerned about the transmission line behind the house than I am the
single phase wye distribution in front.
I also wonder just how much energy we are really talking about. I
certainly have not been able to turn it into any measurable "work".
Again, the low voltage operators are running miles of wire parallel to
these medium voltage distribution lines and we are not seeing and
significant current induced into the phone or TV cables. In most cases
they are actually attached to the neutral return "strand". Dr Kirchoff
tells us the current in this strand will be as high as the current in
the medium voltage line, minus what returns through the earth. (and I
think that is more than they want to admit). There are generally 2 of
them so it is a little less than half of what the primary carries I
suppose (one strand for the PoCo and one for the Telco/cable guys but
they are both connected to the grounding conductor)

All of this is trivial compared to the fields you generate right in
your house, just because they are closer to you. The fact remains that
we have been living, bathed in 60hz fields for over 100 years and we
are not seeing any real effects. The cell phone thing is far more
recent. I guess we will know soon tho as more people have one up to
their head all day long. I guess I will be one of the control group. I
still do not carry a phone.

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:49:37 -0400,
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 23:45:18 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 23:42:48 -0400,
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?



===

Yes, there are lot's of solar powered garden lights that should do the
job, probably at less cost than trying to build a giant transformer.

Hard to beat 12 ga copper ;-)


===

If you have a couple of thousand feet laying around, that would be an
interesting experiment. That much copper would buy quite a few solar
lamps however.


I only needed about 40' (x3) to connect to FPL and that works rain or
shine ;-)
In real life I do have about a half a mile of #12 conductor in the
ground or in pipe overhead installed when I put the pool in. I picked
up eight brand new 500' spools of wire at Garden City (no doubt
stolen) for $15 a spool and it is pretty much all gone now, installed
somewhere around here. Once I had the yard torn up, I ran conduits
everywhere. At this point I only have 2 or 3 unused.

As part of my experiment years ago, I did try 100 feet of wire,
straight under the power line and again coiled under the power line. I
also tried a whole spool of wire with an iron core shoved through the
middle ... Nothing.
I couldn't even tickle a NE2 neon bulb.

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 10:03:10 -0400,
wrote:

On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 06:37:07 -0400 (EDT), Justan Ohlphart
wrote:

Wrote in message:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 09:25:01 -0700 (PDT), Tim wrote:These guys say so....http://brusselstimes.com/business/te...tudy-showsThey are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electriccars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways. You could say solar fixes that but most of these cars will be on theroad when the sun is shining and get charged late at night when ratesare lowest. I suppose you could put solar collectors on the roof of daytimeparking garages and charge a few cars.Like most of these schemes, as long as there are not many of them,they look good. A garage even less than half full of electric carswould eat that solar energy far faster than it gets collected.It is like those guys with a solar collector on the roof of their golfcart. It is great if you only use it every other day, don't use it alot and keep it parked in the sun. My charger puts out 20a at around40v
(0.8KWH) and it takes ~8-9 hours to recharge the batteries.The usable capacity of a typical 36v cart is 8KWH or more depending onwhich battery you choose. I bet Bill's Volt is close to 10x that. Certainly a Tesla would bemuch more.
My Club Car uses six eight volt deep cycle batteries. Would it be
better to deplete the charge to 50% before recharging or, as some
say, recharge after each day's use, no matter the state of
discharge? They say my charger is a smart one but it's not smart
enough to avoid gassing off a lot of water.

===

I have a lot of experience using and abusing golf cart batteries - 8
of them in the inverter bank on our trawler. It's much better for the
batteries to recharge them after each use rather than wait for 50%
depletion. Greater depth of discharge equates directly to shorter
life.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Typical-cycle-life-curve-of-a-Trojan-battery-for-renewable-energy-applications-38_fig1_283807259

Do not over charge however. You really need a good multi-stage
charger to do this properly.

I try to keep my cart batteries up and not let them discharge much.

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On 4/25/2019 10:41 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:49:37 -0400,
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 23:45:18 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 23:42:48 -0400,
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?



===

Yes, there are lot's of solar powered garden lights that should do the
job, probably at less cost than trying to build a giant transformer.

Hard to beat 12 ga copper ;-)


===

If you have a couple of thousand feet laying around, that would be an
interesting experiment. That much copper would buy quite a few solar
lamps however.


I only needed about 40' (x3) to connect to FPL and that works rain or
shine ;-)
In real life I do have about a half a mile of #12 conductor in the
ground or in pipe overhead installed when I put the pool in. I picked
up eight brand new 500' spools of wire at Garden City (no doubt
stolen) for $15 a spool and it is pretty much all gone now, installed
somewhere around here. Once I had the yard torn up, I ran conduits
everywhere. At this point I only have 2 or 3 unused.

As part of my experiment years ago, I did try 100 feet of wire,
straight under the power line and again coiled under the power line. I
also tried a whole spool of wire with an iron core shoved through the
middle ... Nothing.
I couldn't even tickle a NE2 neon bulb.


Not surprising. Even a tiny neon bulb requires about 60-100 vac (or DC)
to cause the gas to ionize and glow. One lead would have to be at ground.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 11:15:26 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/25/2019 10:41 AM, wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 09:49:37 -0400,
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 23:45:18 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 23:42:48 -0400,
wrote:

On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?



===

Yes, there are lot's of solar powered garden lights that should do the
job, probably at less cost than trying to build a giant transformer.

Hard to beat 12 ga copper ;-)


===

If you have a couple of thousand feet laying around, that would be an
interesting experiment. That much copper would buy quite a few solar
lamps however.


I only needed about 40' (x3) to connect to FPL and that works rain or
shine ;-)
In real life I do have about a half a mile of #12 conductor in the
ground or in pipe overhead installed when I put the pool in. I picked
up eight brand new 500' spools of wire at Garden City (no doubt
stolen) for $15 a spool and it is pretty much all gone now, installed
somewhere around here. Once I had the yard torn up, I ran conduits
everywhere. At this point I only have 2 or 3 unused.

As part of my experiment years ago, I did try 100 feet of wire,
straight under the power line and again coiled under the power line. I
also tried a whole spool of wire with an iron core shoved through the
middle ... Nothing.
I couldn't even tickle a NE2 neon bulb.


Not surprising. Even a tiny neon bulb requires about 60-100 vac (or DC)
to cause the gas to ionize and glow. One lead would have to be at ground.

I tried it with one side grounded, with it across the coil and with it
floating, using a variety of resistors from 0 to a meg. A digital
meter on this gives you a random number generator with some scary high
voltages if it is unterminated so there is a field, just not a very
strong one. This started trying to duplicate that F40 tube glowing
that you see on YouTube (before that on "scare you" TV shows) and
nothing I could do would make that happen.
It did seem intriguing tho, free light. Once I put in the boat lift, I
had power down there anyway so it was not worth fooling with.

ELectric cars throw off more immisions than a diesel?
 

wrote:
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.
There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?


===

Yes, there are lot's of solar powered garden lights that should do the
job, probably at less cost than trying to build a giant transformer.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com


There's a big variety:

https://www.amazon.com/s?k=solar+lig...&ref=sr_pg _2

Power line follies (was cars)
 

wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 07:36:13 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/24/2019 8:48 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 00:39:30 -0000 (UTC), Bill
wrote:

wrote:
On Wed, 24 Apr 2019 19:35:19 -0400, Alex wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 18:36:36 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 23, 2019 at 8:41:50 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:28:35 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 17:01:36 -0400, wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 16:08:55 -0400,
wrote:

On Tue, 23 Apr 2019 14:11:32 -0400, wrote:

They are assuming coal fired electric plants but I agree all electric
cars do is move the smoke stack down the road a ways.
===

In my opinion that's an over simplification. For one it ignores the
fact that stationary, large-scale power plants are much more efficient
than the average internal combusion engine used in vehicles. Secondly,
the charging is usually done at off peak hours when there is typically
excess grid capacity. Last but not least, the trend is pointing in
the direction of renewable energy such as wind and solar. If we live
long enough (doubtful), we might even see clean nuclear fusion some
day. As an additional benefit, electric cars have done quite a bit to
advance the state-of-the-art for light weight, high efficiency
batteries. Those gains will eventually prove useful for the storage
of wind and solar energy.
That all assumes a clean power plant in the first place. The article
was talking about coal plants and we still have plenty of them.
Your solar power is not going to do much if the cars are charged at
night.

===

At least in this country, coal plants are rapidly going away.

Solar power at night is not going to happen of course. New battery
technology, and other energy storage devices, will eventually help
with that issue however. If every south facing roof in Florida was
covered with high efficiency solar panels, there would be plenty of
energy to spare for battery charging. I think that will eventually
happen as the price of solar panels steadily decreases.

My problem is drilling holes in a roof that isn't leaking now. My
roofer neighbor says solar is great for his business. I also only have
about 3kw worth of south facing roof.
Solar is getting a lot cheaper tho. I was looking the other day and
there are lots of collectors in the 75 cents a watt neighborhood.
I wonder how FPL would feel if I built an array on their property ;-)
Running those cables to/from that array near their power lines may be
the biggest problem.You may create a transformer that neither of you want. :)
That is way overstated. I have tried to scavenge power from those
lines for 35 years with absolutely zero success. If you believe what
you see on you tube I should be able to hold an F40 tube in the air
and have it light up ... nope. I should be able to string a wire
parallel to the line and generate something ... nope.
Coil of wire ... nope.
I really wanted a light in my boat house under those lines without
stringing another wire but no joy.
If you really look at these lines it is easy to see why. They are a
twisted triplex. They just have a twist about every half mile or so
but that is still way smaller than the wave length. (roughly from here
to California)

Besides, my wires would be running at 90 degrees to the power line and
underground.

There are a lot of LED lights that are charged with small solar panels.
Pretty cheap, too. How much light do you need?

I have 20 amps down there now. It is not an issue.
The reality is 60 feet of rope light around the top of the lift is
perfect. That ends up being about 100 watts.
If I was still interested in trying to scavenge some power I might try
something with an LED but I doubt I could even get a glimmer out of
one.
I have pretty much given up and debunked a lot of the urban legends.
If anyone has another experiment, let me know. It is just a short walk
across the Ed Labrador Memorial Bridge now, not Bwana hacking through
the jungle like before. I am up there 4 or 5 times a day with the
Deuce man.
The setup is 1 delta high voltage line running 230kv and 2 delta
medium voltage lines running 26kv. It is about 70 feet off the ground
behind the house going up to more like 85' where it crosses the river.
Bring out your fables. I love science.


Need more voltage. The 500kv lines that run down the center of California
induce lots of current in the parallel line. When a crop duster took out 5
towers, engineers thought an airplane would take out 4. Our friend worked
for the power company. A special crew works on the line. Has a faraday
cage suit. They shut down the downed line, reduced power in the parallel
line and grounded the don line a mile each side of the break. He said the
ground line at the tower by the break carried 200 amps.

Why wouldn't it be somewhat proportional? I am not really able to see
much of anything beyond tickling a digital meter and that happens just
about anywhere.



Because like RF, the high voltage lines produce a near field and then
a quickly diminishing "far field" as distance from the lines increases.
It's not proportional, is dependent on current flow and, at 60hz is not
anywhere as strong as at RF frequencies.

It's still something I think about though. The greatest risk is
at ionizing potentials that can cause immediate damage to living
cells. Non ionizing potentials may cause an affect, causing
cell molecules to vibrate (which is the whole idea behind
an MRI scan) but the jury is still out on damage due to long
term exposure.

Frankly, I am more concerned with the RF energy ... as low as it
is ... of a cell phone held up to your head to use.
There is much scientific controversy as to if long term exposure
constitutes a danger.


Because of the balancing effect of a 3 phase delta I am far less
concerned about the transmission line behind the house than I am the
single phase wye distribution in front.
I also wonder just how much energy we are really talking about. I
certainly have not been able to turn it into any measurable "work".
Again, the low voltage operators are running miles of wire parallel to
these medium voltage distribution lines and we are not seeing and
significant current induced into the phone or TV cables. In most cases
they are actually attached to the neutral return "strand". Dr Kirchoff
tells us the current in this strand will be as high as the current in
the medium voltage line, minus what returns through the earth. (and I
think that is more than they want to admit). There are generally 2 of
them so it is a little less than half of what the primary carries I
suppose (one strand for the PoCo and one for the Telco/cable guys but
they are both connected to the grounding conductor)

All of this is trivial compared to the fields you generate right in
your house, just because they are closer to you. The fact remains that
we have been living, bathed in 60hz fields for over 100 years and we
are not seeing any real effects. The cell phone thing is far more
recent. I guess we will know soon tho as more people have one up to
their head all day long. I guess I will be one of the control group. I
still do not carry a phone.


Maybe the result of all the 60hz gets you an AOC?

Power line follies
 

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 10:02:15 AM UTC-4, wrote:


"Flop around"? Each conductor is securely attached to insulators.
They are not physically twisted in a bundle, they just get an
electrical twist by having the phases change positions from pole to
pole. They call it transposition. It allows the lines to be balanced.
(Relative inductance to each other and to the environment around them)

Oh, I thought you were saying that each *leg* consisted of three twisted conductors. I've never seen that but who knows what FPL might be doing.

Those solar panels aren't part of the grid, and have no "sync". Sunlight isn't 60 Hz. :)

The inverter will be grid tied so the transport to the house would be
in sync.

Of course, but it wasn't the feed to the house that I was talking about.

Power line follies
 

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 09:59:10 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 10:02:15 AM UTC-4, wrote:


"Flop around"? Each conductor is securely attached to insulators.
They are not physically twisted in a bundle, they just get an
electrical twist by having the phases change positions from pole to
pole. They call it transposition. It allows the lines to be balanced.
(Relative inductance to each other and to the environment around them)

Oh, I thought you were saying that each *leg* consisted of three twisted conductors. I've never seen that but who knows what FPL might be doing.

Transmission lines overhead are bare wires. They are twisted strands
but that is just to increase flexibility and skin effect. The twist I
was talking about is how the lines get "transposed" on the poles every
half or so where they all get swapped around


Those solar panels aren't part of the grid, and have no "sync". Sunlight isn't 60 Hz. :)

The inverter will be grid tied so the transport to the house would be
in sync.

Of course, but it wasn't the feed to the house that I was talking about.

You think there will be some voltage induced into the panels?
I am not seeing that on anything that is terminated in any way. In
this case the panels would be terminated into the inverter and if
there was any 60hz present it would simple be chewed up and spit out
by the inverter anyway. After all it would be "in sync" with the grid
anyway.

Power line follies
 

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 1:44:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 09:59:10 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 10:02:15 AM UTC-4, wrote:


"Flop around"? Each conductor is securely attached to insulators.
They are not physically twisted in a bundle, they just get an
electrical twist by having the phases change positions from pole to
pole. They call it transposition. It allows the lines to be balanced.
(Relative inductance to each other and to the environment around them)

Oh, I thought you were saying that each *leg* consisted of three twisted conductors. I've never seen that but who knows what FPL might be doing.

Transmission lines overhead are bare wires. They are twisted strands
but that is just to increase flexibility and skin effect. The twist I
was talking about is how the lines get "transposed" on the poles every
half or so where they all get swapped around


Those solar panels aren't part of the grid, and have no "sync". Sunlight isn't 60 Hz. :)

The inverter will be grid tied so the transport to the house would be
in sync.

Of course, but it wasn't the feed to the house that I was talking about.

You think there will be some voltage induced into the panels?
I am not seeing that on anything that is terminated in any way. In
this case the panels would be terminated into the inverter and if
there was any 60hz present it would simple be chewed up and spit out
by the inverter anyway. After all it would be "in sync" with the grid
anyway.

I don't know, I've never played with it, but it can induce some noise. Probably not enough in that situation to do anything at all.

Years ago I installed some comm equipment in a train yard. We had built some interface cards for some comm circuits that was just a 600 ohm twisted pair that ran along the track for miles until it hit a transmitter shack, sometimes with a handset in there to talk back to dispatch. The interface card had a transformer and some audio switching circuits, and was protected by a couple of MOV's rated at 160-180 volts, one for each side of pair going to ground.

When we installed the new equipment and started testing, some of those circuits had a horrible amount of noise and buzzing on them. Doing some troubleshooting with a butt set, I discovered that if our interface card was disconnected, the noise went away. Then I hung an oscilloscope on one side of the pair, then the other. There was a HUGE 60hz component coming in on some of the circuits, in some cases around 200 volts. Since the twisted pair was doing what it does, you didn't hear that on the circuit (when you induce a signal on a twisted pair, the same signal is present on both wires.
Since you only care about the difference in potential between the two wires, the signal stays intact.). It wasn't until our interface card was connected that the MOVs saw that voltage from each wire to ground and turned on, unbalancing the circuit and causing the noise to be audible.

Turns out that the pairs left the yard and were run on power poles, occasionally in some cases dropping down to fence posts on the right-of-way, then back up to the posts. They picked up the induced signal from the power lines and brought it right back to our interface cards. We clipped out the MOVs, and all was good. We had to depend on primary lightning protection to protect the equipment. The MOVs were secondary.

Power line follies
 

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 11:21:11 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 1:44:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 09:59:10 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 10:02:15 AM UTC-4, wrote:


"Flop around"? Each conductor is securely attached to insulators.
They are not physically twisted in a bundle, they just get an
electrical twist by having the phases change positions from pole to
pole. They call it transposition. It allows the lines to be balanced.
(Relative inductance to each other and to the environment around them)

Oh, I thought you were saying that each *leg* consisted of three twisted conductors. I've never seen that but who knows what FPL might be doing.

Transmission lines overhead are bare wires. They are twisted strands
but that is just to increase flexibility and skin effect. The twist I
was talking about is how the lines get "transposed" on the poles every
half or so where they all get swapped around


Those solar panels aren't part of the grid, and have no "sync". Sunlight isn't 60 Hz. :)

The inverter will be grid tied so the transport to the house would be
in sync.

Of course, but it wasn't the feed to the house that I was talking about.

You think there will be some voltage induced into the panels?
I am not seeing that on anything that is terminated in any way. In
this case the panels would be terminated into the inverter and if
there was any 60hz present it would simple be chewed up and spit out
by the inverter anyway. After all it would be "in sync" with the grid
anyway.

I don't know, I've never played with it, but it can induce some noise. Probably not enough in that situation to do anything at all.

Years ago I installed some comm equipment in a train yard. We had built some interface cards for some comm circuits that was just a 600 ohm twisted pair that ran along the track for miles until it hit a transmitter shack, sometimes with a handset in there to talk back to dispatch. The interface card had a transformer and some audio switching circuits, and was protected by a couple of MOV's rated at 160-180 volts, one for each side of pair going to ground.

When we installed the new equipment and started testing, some of those circuits had a horrible amount of noise and buzzing on them. Doing some troubleshooting with a butt set, I discovered that if our interface card was disconnected, the noise went away. Then I hung an oscilloscope on one side of the pair, then the other. There was a HUGE 60hz component coming in on some of the circuits, in some cases around 200 volts. Since the twisted pair was doing what it does, you didn't hear that on the circuit (when you induce a signal on a twisted pair, the same signal is present on both wires.
Since you only care about the difference in potential between the two wires, the signal stays intact.). It wasn't until our interface card was connected that the MOVs saw that voltage from each wire to ground and turned on, unbalancing the circuit and causing the noise to be audible.

Turns out that the pairs left the yard and were run on power poles, occasionally in some cases dropping down to fence posts on the right-of-way, then back up to the posts. They picked up the induced signal from the power lines and brought it right back to our interface cards. We clipped out the MOVs, and all was good. We had to depend on primary lightning protection to protect the equipment. The MOVs were secondary.

More likely you were simply seeing the ground shift induced by using
earth as part of the return path. That is inevitable with wye
distribution, even if you do have a neutral conductor. Current does
not take the path of least resistance, it takes ALL paths. The voltage
drop on distribution lines is imposed on the earth. When we were
investigating blown interface cards at a college campus I found up to
35 volts between "ground" on the various buildings. We found a number
of solutions depending on the topology and geography but some
customers just turned it over to the phone company, using leased phone
lines between buildings that were a hundred yards apart. The other
solution was copper, bonding "grounds" together, usually from machine
frame to machine frame directly. We had to call it a "drain" and use
black wire to avoid NEC problems.

Power line follies
 

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 4:00:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 11:21:11 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 1:44:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 09:59:10 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 10:02:15 AM UTC-4, wrote:


"Flop around"? Each conductor is securely attached to insulators.
They are not physically twisted in a bundle, they just get an
electrical twist by having the phases change positions from pole to
pole. They call it transposition. It allows the lines to be balanced.
(Relative inductance to each other and to the environment around them)

Oh, I thought you were saying that each *leg* consisted of three twisted conductors. I've never seen that but who knows what FPL might be doing..

Transmission lines overhead are bare wires. They are twisted strands
but that is just to increase flexibility and skin effect. The twist I
was talking about is how the lines get "transposed" on the poles every
half or so where they all get swapped around


Those solar panels aren't part of the grid, and have no "sync". Sunlight isn't 60 Hz. :)

The inverter will be grid tied so the transport to the house would be
in sync.

Of course, but it wasn't the feed to the house that I was talking about.

You think there will be some voltage induced into the panels?
I am not seeing that on anything that is terminated in any way. In
this case the panels would be terminated into the inverter and if
there was any 60hz present it would simple be chewed up and spit out
by the inverter anyway. After all it would be "in sync" with the grid
anyway.

I don't know, I've never played with it, but it can induce some noise. Probably not enough in that situation to do anything at all.

Years ago I installed some comm equipment in a train yard. We had built some interface cards for some comm circuits that was just a 600 ohm twisted pair that ran along the track for miles until it hit a transmitter shack, sometimes with a handset in there to talk back to dispatch. The interface card had a transformer and some audio switching circuits, and was protected by a couple of MOV's rated at 160-180 volts, one for each side of pair going to ground.

When we installed the new equipment and started testing, some of those circuits had a horrible amount of noise and buzzing on them. Doing some troubleshooting with a butt set, I discovered that if our interface card was disconnected, the noise went away. Then I hung an oscilloscope on one side of the pair, then the other. There was a HUGE 60hz component coming in on some of the circuits, in some cases around 200 volts. Since the twisted pair was doing what it does, you didn't hear that on the circuit (when you induce a signal on a twisted pair, the same signal is present on both wires.
Since you only care about the difference in potential between the two wires, the signal stays intact.). It wasn't until our interface card was connected that the MOVs saw that voltage from each wire to ground and turned on, unbalancing the circuit and causing the noise to be audible.

Turns out that the pairs left the yard and were run on power poles, occasionally in some cases dropping down to fence posts on the right-of-way, then back up to the posts. They picked up the induced signal from the power lines and brought it right back to our interface cards. We clipped out the MOVs, and all was good. We had to depend on primary lightning protection to protect the equipment. The MOVs were secondary.

More likely you were simply seeing the ground shift induced by using
earth as part of the return path. That is inevitable with wye
distribution, even if you do have a neutral conductor. Current does
not take the path of least resistance, it takes ALL paths. The voltage
drop on distribution lines is imposed on the earth. When we were
investigating blown interface cards at a college campus I found up to
35 volts between "ground" on the various buildings. We found a number
of solutions depending on the topology and geography but some
customers just turned it over to the phone company, using leased phone
lines between buildings that were a hundred yards apart. The other
solution was copper, bonding "grounds" together, usually from machine
frame to machine frame directly. We had to call it a "drain" and use
black wire to avoid NEC problems.

Nope, this was voltage induced into long runs of unshielded, twisted pair wires. Across the pair you didn't see it, but compared to ground you (properly) did. It's basic electronics 101. Unbalance the pair, which the MOVs did, and now the differential between the conductors is significant and you can hear the induced noise.

It's exactly why RS-232 data is only good for 50ft (or with special, low capacitance cable up to 1,500 feet), and RS-422 is good for nearly 5,000 feet.. RS-232 is single ended and is compared to ground (which you can't shake with induced noise), while RS-422 (or 485) is twisted pair. Hit the 232 with a 25 volt spike, and you just changed a 0 to a 1. But with 422, you are looking for a 5 volt difference between the wires. You don't care if they are 0 and 5 volts, or 20 and 25 volts, the data is still intact. Well, until it hits 1000 and 1005 volts, then you've blown up the receiver chip. But the data was still good!

Power line follies
 

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 13:31:59 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 4:00:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 11:21:11 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 1:44:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 09:59:10 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 10:02:15 AM UTC-4, wrote:


"Flop around"? Each conductor is securely attached to insulators.
They are not physically twisted in a bundle, they just get an
electrical twist by having the phases change positions from pole to
pole. They call it transposition. It allows the lines to be balanced.
(Relative inductance to each other and to the environment around them)

Oh, I thought you were saying that each *leg* consisted of three twisted conductors. I've never seen that but who knows what FPL might be doing.

Transmission lines overhead are bare wires. They are twisted strands
but that is just to increase flexibility and skin effect. The twist I
was talking about is how the lines get "transposed" on the poles every
half or so where they all get swapped around


Those solar panels aren't part of the grid, and have no "sync". Sunlight isn't 60 Hz. :)

The inverter will be grid tied so the transport to the house would be
in sync.

Of course, but it wasn't the feed to the house that I was talking about.

You think there will be some voltage induced into the panels?
I am not seeing that on anything that is terminated in any way. In
this case the panels would be terminated into the inverter and if
there was any 60hz present it would simple be chewed up and spit out
by the inverter anyway. After all it would be "in sync" with the grid
anyway.

I don't know, I've never played with it, but it can induce some noise. Probably not enough in that situation to do anything at all.

Years ago I installed some comm equipment in a train yard. We had built some interface cards for some comm circuits that was just a 600 ohm twisted pair that ran along the track for miles until it hit a transmitter shack, sometimes with a handset in there to talk back to dispatch. The interface card had a transformer and some audio switching circuits, and was protected by a couple of MOV's rated at 160-180 volts, one for each side of pair going to ground.

When we installed the new equipment and started testing, some of those circuits had a horrible amount of noise and buzzing on them. Doing some troubleshooting with a butt set, I discovered that if our interface card was disconnected, the noise went away. Then I hung an oscilloscope on one side of the pair, then the other. There was a HUGE 60hz component coming in on some of the circuits, in some cases around 200 volts. Since the twisted pair was doing what it does, you didn't hear that on the circuit (when you induce a signal on a twisted pair, the same signal is present on both wires.
Since you only care about the difference in potential between the two wires, the signal stays intact.). It wasn't until our interface card was connected that the MOVs saw that voltage from each wire to ground and turned on, unbalancing the circuit and causing the noise to be audible.

Turns out that the pairs left the yard and were run on power poles, occasionally in some cases dropping down to fence posts on the right-of-way, then back up to the posts. They picked up the induced signal from the power lines and brought it right back to our interface cards. We clipped out the MOVs, and all was good. We had to depend on primary lightning protection to protect the equipment. The MOVs were secondary.

More likely you were simply seeing the ground shift induced by using
earth as part of the return path. That is inevitable with wye
distribution, even if you do have a neutral conductor. Current does
not take the path of least resistance, it takes ALL paths. The voltage
drop on distribution lines is imposed on the earth. When we were
investigating blown interface cards at a college campus I found up to
35 volts between "ground" on the various buildings. We found a number
of solutions depending on the topology and geography but some
customers just turned it over to the phone company, using leased phone
lines between buildings that were a hundred yards apart. The other
solution was copper, bonding "grounds" together, usually from machine
frame to machine frame directly. We had to call it a "drain" and use
black wire to avoid NEC problems.

Nope, this was voltage induced into long runs of unshielded, twisted pair wires. Across the pair you didn't see it, but compared to ground you (properly) did. It's basic electronics 101. Unbalance the pair, which the MOVs did, and now the differential between the conductors is significant and you can hear the induced noise.

It's exactly why RS-232 data is only good for 50ft (or with special, low capacitance cable up to 1,500 feet), and RS-422 is good for nearly 5,000 feet. RS-232 is single ended and is compared to ground (which you can't shake with induced noise), while RS-422 (or 485) is twisted pair. Hit the 232 with a 25 volt spike, and you just changed a 0 to a 1. But with 422, you are looking for a 5 volt difference between the wires. You don't care if they are 0 and 5 volts, or 20 and 25 volts, the data is still intact. Well, until it hits 1000 and 1005 volts, then you've blown up the receiver chip. But the data was still good!

I am not going to argue with you but I was a physical Planning rep in
a place with 200 thunderstorms in a typical year and I know what works
and what doesn't. I have seen a lot of well credentialed EEs, usually
from up north, fail miserably with their theories. The proof is always
in the magic smoke that escapes when they guess wrong.
We went from a couple "lightning" calls a day to a couple a year once
we started implementing our strategies and ignoring all of the "ground
loop" loonies.

Power line follies
 

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 5:46:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 13:31:59 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 4:00:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 11:21:11 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 1:44:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 09:59:10 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 10:02:15 AM UTC-4, wrote:


"Flop around"? Each conductor is securely attached to insulators.
They are not physically twisted in a bundle, they just get an
electrical twist by having the phases change positions from pole to
pole. They call it transposition. It allows the lines to be balanced.
(Relative inductance to each other and to the environment around them)

Oh, I thought you were saying that each *leg* consisted of three twisted conductors. I've never seen that but who knows what FPL might be doing.

Transmission lines overhead are bare wires. They are twisted strands
but that is just to increase flexibility and skin effect. The twist I
was talking about is how the lines get "transposed" on the poles every
half or so where they all get swapped around


Those solar panels aren't part of the grid, and have no "sync". Sunlight isn't 60 Hz. :)

The inverter will be grid tied so the transport to the house would be
in sync.

Of course, but it wasn't the feed to the house that I was talking about.

You think there will be some voltage induced into the panels?
I am not seeing that on anything that is terminated in any way. In
this case the panels would be terminated into the inverter and if
there was any 60hz present it would simple be chewed up and spit out
by the inverter anyway. After all it would be "in sync" with the grid
anyway.

I don't know, I've never played with it, but it can induce some noise.. Probably not enough in that situation to do anything at all.

Years ago I installed some comm equipment in a train yard. We had built some interface cards for some comm circuits that was just a 600 ohm twisted pair that ran along the track for miles until it hit a transmitter shack, sometimes with a handset in there to talk back to dispatch. The interface card had a transformer and some audio switching circuits, and was protected by a couple of MOV's rated at 160-180 volts, one for each side of pair going to ground.

When we installed the new equipment and started testing, some of those circuits had a horrible amount of noise and buzzing on them. Doing some troubleshooting with a butt set, I discovered that if our interface card was disconnected, the noise went away. Then I hung an oscilloscope on one side of the pair, then the other. There was a HUGE 60hz component coming in on some of the circuits, in some cases around 200 volts. Since the twisted pair was doing what it does, you didn't hear that on the circuit (when you induce a signal on a twisted pair, the same signal is present on both wires.
Since you only care about the difference in potential between the two wires, the signal stays intact.). It wasn't until our interface card was connected that the MOVs saw that voltage from each wire to ground and turned on, unbalancing the circuit and causing the noise to be audible.

Turns out that the pairs left the yard and were run on power poles, occasionally in some cases dropping down to fence posts on the right-of-way, then back up to the posts. They picked up the induced signal from the power lines and brought it right back to our interface cards. We clipped out the MOVs, and all was good. We had to depend on primary lightning protection to protect the equipment. The MOVs were secondary.

More likely you were simply seeing the ground shift induced by using
earth as part of the return path. That is inevitable with wye
distribution, even if you do have a neutral conductor. Current does
not take the path of least resistance, it takes ALL paths. The voltage
drop on distribution lines is imposed on the earth. When we were
investigating blown interface cards at a college campus I found up to
35 volts between "ground" on the various buildings. We found a number
of solutions depending on the topology and geography but some
customers just turned it over to the phone company, using leased phone
lines between buildings that were a hundred yards apart. The other
solution was copper, bonding "grounds" together, usually from machine
frame to machine frame directly. We had to call it a "drain" and use
black wire to avoid NEC problems.

Nope, this was voltage induced into long runs of unshielded, twisted pair wires. Across the pair you didn't see it, but compared to ground you (properly) did. It's basic electronics 101. Unbalance the pair, which the MOVs did, and now the differential between the conductors is significant and you can hear the induced noise.

It's exactly why RS-232 data is only good for 50ft (or with special, low capacitance cable up to 1,500 feet), and RS-422 is good for nearly 5,000 feet. RS-232 is single ended and is compared to ground (which you can't shake with induced noise), while RS-422 (or 485) is twisted pair. Hit the 232 with a 25 volt spike, and you just changed a 0 to a 1. But with 422, you are looking for a 5 volt difference between the wires. You don't care if they are 0 and 5 volts, or 20 and 25 volts, the data is still intact. Well, until it hits 1000 and 1005 volts, then you've blown up the receiver chip. But the data was still good!

I am not going to argue with you but I was a physical Planning rep in
a place with 200 thunderstorms in a typical year and I know what works
and what doesn't. I have seen a lot of well credentialed EEs, usually
from up north, fail miserably with their theories. The proof is always
in the magic smoke that escapes when they guess wrong.
We went from a couple "lightning" calls a day to a couple a year once
we started implementing our strategies and ignoring all of the "ground
loop" loonies.

That's nice and all, but we aren't talking about thunderstorms. I've worked with many non-engineering types that thought they knew what they were talking about, but many of their practices were flawed, and it showed through in the end. Your attitude isn't uncommon. It's similar to class warfare, eh? :)

Bottom line, I was dealing with induced AC on a twisted pair that was enough to turn on 180v MOVs. You can talk about ground differentials all you want, but that had absolutely NOTHING to do with what was happening in that situation.

Have a good evening!

Power line follies
 

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 17:37:48 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 5:46:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 13:31:59 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 4:00:01 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 11:21:11 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 1:44:28 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 09:59:10 -0700 (PDT), Its Me
wrote:

On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 10:02:15 AM UTC-4, wrote:


"Flop around"? Each conductor is securely attached to insulators.
They are not physically twisted in a bundle, they just get an
electrical twist by having the phases change positions from pole to
pole. They call it transposition. It allows the lines to be balanced.
(Relative inductance to each other and to the environment around them)

Oh, I thought you were saying that each *leg* consisted of three twisted conductors. I've never seen that but who knows what FPL might be doing.

Transmission lines overhead are bare wires. They are twisted strands
but that is just to increase flexibility and skin effect. The twist I
was talking about is how the lines get "transposed" on the poles every
half or so where they all get swapped around


Those solar panels aren't part of the grid, and have no "sync". Sunlight isn't 60 Hz. :)

The inverter will be grid tied so the transport to the house would be
in sync.

Of course, but it wasn't the feed to the house that I was talking about.

You think there will be some voltage induced into the panels?
I am not seeing that on anything that is terminated in any way. In
this case the panels would be terminated into the inverter and if
there was any 60hz present it would simple be chewed up and spit out
by the inverter anyway. After all it would be "in sync" with the grid
anyway.

I don't know, I've never played with it, but it can induce some noise. Probably not enough in that situation to do anything at all.

Years ago I installed some comm equipment in a train yard. We had built some interface cards for some comm circuits that was just a 600 ohm twisted pair that ran along the track for miles until it hit a transmitter shack, sometimes with a handset in there to talk back to dispatch. The interface card had a transformer and some audio switching circuits, and was protected by a couple of MOV's rated at 160-180 volts, one for each side of pair going to ground.

When we installed the new equipment and started testing, some of those circuits had a horrible amount of noise and buzzing on them. Doing some troubleshooting with a butt set, I discovered that if our interface card was disconnected, the noise went away. Then I hung an oscilloscope on one side of the pair, then the other. There was a HUGE 60hz component coming in on some of the circuits, in some cases around 200 volts. Since the twisted pair was doing what it does, you didn't hear that on the circuit (when you induce a signal on a twisted pair, the same signal is present on both wires.
Since you only care about the difference in potential between the two wires, the signal stays intact.). It wasn't until our interface card was connected that the MOVs saw that voltage from each wire to ground and turned on, unbalancing the circuit and causing the noise to be audible.

Turns out that the pairs left the yard and were run on power poles, occasionally in some cases dropping down to fence posts on the right-of-way, then back up to the posts. They picked up the induced signal from the power lines and brought it right back to our interface cards. We clipped out the MOVs, and all was good. We had to depend on primary lightning protection to protect the equipment. The MOVs were secondary.

More likely you were simply seeing the ground shift induced by using
earth as part of the return path. That is inevitable with wye
distribution, even if you do have a neutral conductor. Current does
not take the path of least resistance, it takes ALL paths. The voltage
drop on distribution lines is imposed on the earth. When we were
investigating blown interface cards at a college campus I found up to
35 volts between "ground" on the various buildings. We found a number
of solutions depending on the topology and geography but some
customers just turned it over to the phone company, using leased phone
lines between buildings that were a hundred yards apart. The other
solution was copper, bonding "grounds" together, usually from machine
frame to machine frame directly. We had to call it a "drain" and use
black wire to avoid NEC problems.

Nope, this was voltage induced into long runs of unshielded, twisted pair wires. Across the pair you didn't see it, but compared to ground you (properly) did. It's basic electronics 101. Unbalance the pair, which the MOVs did, and now the differential between the conductors is significant and you can hear the induced noise.

It's exactly why RS-232 data is only good for 50ft (or with special, low capacitance cable up to 1,500 feet), and RS-422 is good for nearly 5,000 feet. RS-232 is single ended and is compared to ground (which you can't shake with induced noise), while RS-422 (or 485) is twisted pair. Hit the 232 with a 25 volt spike, and you just changed a 0 to a 1. But with 422, you are looking for a 5 volt difference between the wires. You don't care if they are 0 and 5 volts, or 20 and 25 volts, the data is still intact. Well, until it hits 1000 and 1005 volts, then you've blown up the receiver chip. But the data was still good!

I am not going to argue with you but I was a physical Planning rep in
a place with 200 thunderstorms in a typical year and I know what works
and what doesn't. I have seen a lot of well credentialed EEs, usually
from up north, fail miserably with their theories. The proof is always
in the magic smoke that escapes when they guess wrong.
We went from a couple "lightning" calls a day to a couple a year once
we started implementing our strategies and ignoring all of the "ground
loop" loonies.

That's nice and all, but we aren't talking about thunderstorms. I've worked with many non-engineering types that thought they knew what they were talking about, but many of their practices were flawed, and it showed through in the end. Your attitude isn't uncommon. It's similar to class warfare, eh? :)

Bottom line, I was dealing with induced AC on a twisted pair that was enough to turn on 180v MOVs. You can talk about ground differentials all you want, but that had absolutely NOTHING to do with what was happening in that situation.

Have a good evening!

You said the line to line was nominal so where was the MOV referenced?
To "ground"?