This is a perfect example of someone reviewing a product or service without
any knowledge of the product being sold.JD Powers serves are a reflection of
the consumers perception of the product. If the company does not purchase
the survey, they don't get ranked. JD Powers does not need to bias the
survey to be able to sell their service.

In 2002 Gould didn't like JD Powers but for a completely different reason.
It appears that Gould has had incorrect knowledge of JD Powers for a long
time. Gould wrote the following: The disciples of JD Powers will be
interested to know that the latest ratings
are now available.

In a press release dated Aug. 27, some of the claims made by Powers include:

1)" Bass and Ski/wakeboard boat owners report highest product satisfaction
and
fewest problems."
(Duh. Is that because these are the simplest boats?)

"Bass and ski/wakeboard boat owners reported experiencing an average of
fewer
than three problems with their boats during the first year of ownership,
while
cruiser boat owners report an average of nearly five problems in the first
year
of ownership.

(translation: bass boat owners had three "problems" and cruiser boat owners
had
four)


2) Ranger, Chaparral, Cobalt, Sea Ray, Grady White, Bennington and Correct
Craft rank highest for overall satisfaction in seven major boat segments.

3) Chaparral ranks highest in the small runabout segment, Bennington in the
pontoon boat segment, Correct Craft in the ski/wakeboard boat segment and
Sea
Ray in the express cruiser segment.

4) As with the 2001 study, the biggest quality concerns are associated with
the engines that power the boats. One third of new boat owners report engine
problems. While many of these problems are related to engine defects such as
oil leaks or difficult starts, consumers frequently cite that the engine
doesn't have enough power for the size of the boat. The study finds that
consumers who choose their own engines are significantly more satisfied with
engine performance than those who buy the boat-engine package.

(translation: Powers still doesn't realize that the same company is making
most
of the engines in boats. Powers does consider a boat with an undersized
engine
to have a "problem," and study results will imply that the boat itself is
somehow defectively built when the issue is really a question of the poor
choice of a cheaper, underpowered engine.)

5) Ranger ranks highest in the bas boat segment for the second consecutive
year, while Cobalt and Grady White repeat as the highest-ranked boats in the
large runabout and coastal fishing boat segments repsectively. Triton and
Skeeter closely follow Ranger in the Bass boat rankings. Crownline and Four
Winns follow Cobalt in the large runabout rankings, repsectively. Grady
White
is followed in the coastal fishing boat segment rankings by Scout and Boston
Whaler.

AND HERE'S A SHOCKER! (Probably relates directly to the number of people
who
are unhappy with the amount of HP the boat came with.....)

ONLY ONE-THIRD of all boat buyers reported "test driving" their boat before
purchase! Two-thirds do not! (No wonder they're so mad at the salespeople.
When
the boat turns out to be less powerful than expected, the situation has to
be
blamed on somebody, right?)

This is a perfect example of someone reviewing a product or service without
any knowledge of the product being sold.

It certainly is.

Ever have anything to do with JD Powers except fill out a survey?

Powers apologists might find this link very interesting:

http://www.zieglersupersystems.com/d.../bravehart.htm


There are a number of references to JD Powers, as well as observations that
some Powers surveys are useful to manufacturers seeking to terminate dealers
for a variety of reasons.

I would need to look into the comment that JD Powers is part owner of a company
that sells automobiles on the internet. This is the first I have heard of that.

So what?
So, the only boat owners surveyed are those who own boats of companies who
purchase Powers' survey service. That's not a negative or a positive,
because that manufacturer won't be named in the survey or results.
As for the Bass and Ski/wakeboard boats scoring highest and maybe because
they are the simplest; maybe. The reason isn't mentioned and doesn't matter:
they are satisfied owners.
As for whether or not Powers realizes who makes the engines, it doesn't
matter in their survey; they only ask for satisfaction.
An underpowered (in the opinion of the surveyed owner) boat is a problem to
that owner.
As for the shocker about buyers not taking a test ride, well, that's the way
it is. Regardless of the reason many buyers don't take a test ride. I doubt
if they're mad at the salesperson unless they were actually lied to about
what to expect. They are probably just disappointed and wish they could have
afforded a bigger engine. Many of them probably wouldn't have been able to
buy a new boat if they wanted a bigger engine.
The real question is: who cares about the Powers survey?
Manufacturers who pay for it, because if they do well, they can advertise
the results.
Owners whose boats scored well, because it reinforces that they made a good
decision in buying the boat.
Shoppers who are looking for something to qualify or disqualify their choice
of boat.
And that's about it. I doubt that many people buy a boat just because it did
well in the survey, or didn't buy one because it didn't.


"Spam Me Please" wrote in message
news:cuapb.86387$Tr4.214100@attbi_s03...
This is a perfect example of someone reviewing a product or service
without
any knowledge of the product being sold.JD Powers serves are a reflection
of
the consumers perception of the product. If the company does not purchase
the survey, they don't get ranked. JD Powers does not need to bias the
survey to be able to sell their service.

In 2002 Gould didn't like JD Powers but for a completely different reason.
It appears that Gould has had incorrect knowledge of JD Powers for a long
time. Gould wrote the following: The disciples of JD Powers will be
interested to know that the latest ratings
are now available.

In a press release dated Aug. 27, some of the claims made by Powers
include:

1)" Bass and Ski/wakeboard boat owners report highest product satisfaction
and
fewest problems."
(Duh. Is that because these are the simplest boats?)

"Bass and ski/wakeboard boat owners reported experiencing an average of
fewer
than three problems with their boats during the first year of ownership,
while
cruiser boat owners report an average of nearly five problems in the first
year
of ownership.

(translation: bass boat owners had three "problems" and cruiser boat
owners
had
four)


2) Ranger, Chaparral, Cobalt, Sea Ray, Grady White, Bennington and Correct
Craft rank highest for overall satisfaction in seven major boat segments.

3) Chaparral ranks highest in the small runabout segment, Bennington in
the
pontoon boat segment, Correct Craft in the ski/wakeboard boat segment and
Sea
Ray in the express cruiser segment.

4) As with the 2001 study, the biggest quality concerns are associated
with
the engines that power the boats. One third of new boat owners report
engine
problems. While many of these problems are related to engine defects such
as
oil leaks or difficult starts, consumers frequently cite that the engine
doesn't have enough power for the size of the boat. The study finds that
consumers who choose their own engines are significantly more satisfied
with
engine performance than those who buy the boat-engine package.

(translation: Powers still doesn't realize that the same company is making
most
of the engines in boats. Powers does consider a boat with an undersized
engine
to have a "problem," and study results will imply that the boat itself is
somehow defectively built when the issue is really a question of the poor
choice of a cheaper, underpowered engine.)

5) Ranger ranks highest in the bas boat segment for the second consecutive
year, while Cobalt and Grady White repeat as the highest-ranked boats in
the
large runabout and coastal fishing boat segments repsectively. Triton and
Skeeter closely follow Ranger in the Bass boat rankings. Crownline and
Four
Winns follow Cobalt in the large runabout rankings, repsectively. Grady
White
is followed in the coastal fishing boat segment rankings by Scout and
Boston
Whaler.

AND HERE'S A SHOCKER! (Probably relates directly to the number of people
who
are unhappy with the amount of HP the boat came with.....)

ONLY ONE-THIRD of all boat buyers reported "test driving" their boat
before
purchase! Two-thirds do not! (No wonder they're so mad at the salespeople.
When
the boat turns out to be less powerful than expected, the situation has to
be
blamed on somebody, right?)

I guess Bayliner just didn't have enough money to ask JD Powers to run a
survey for them, because if they did Bayliner could have come in number one.
It really surprises me that SeaRay would payoff JD Powers to give them a
good review, but forget to tell it's sister company to hop on the bandwagon
of buying a good review.

I have seen you put blinders on and ignore the obvious when you are
discussing politics, but I just put that to politics, it seems that you
really just decide what side of an issue you are going to support and ignore
everything else. It does seem that you prescribe to many different
conspiracy theory's. Did you hear the one about LBJ killing Kenned?


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
This is a perfect example of someone reviewing a product or service
without
any knowledge of the product being sold.

It certainly is.

Ever have anything to do with JD Powers except fill out a survey?

Powers apologists might find this link very interesting:

http://www.zieglersupersystems.com/d.../bravehart.htm


There are a number of references to JD Powers, as well as observations
that
some Powers surveys are useful to manufacturers seeking to terminate
dealers
for a variety of reasons.

I would need to look into the comment that JD Powers is part owner of a
company
that sells automobiles on the internet. This is the first I have heard of
that.

I have seen you put blinders on and ignore the obvious when you are
discussing politics, but I just put that to politics, it seems that you
really just decide what side of an issue you are going to support and ignore
everything else. It does seem that you prescribe to many different
conspiracy theory's. Did you hear the one about LBJ killing Kenned?



The only similarity between this and a political thread is the party that is
losing the argument based on issues keeps trying to swtich to personalities.
That's a consistent trend.

Can you provide any proof of your theory that JD Powers uses bias survey to
provide better results to the company who is "buying" the survey?

I guess whenever someone says they find your argument weak, you assume you
are winning the argument.


"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
I have seen you put blinders on and ignore the obvious when you are
discussing politics, but I just put that to politics, it seems that you
really just decide what side of an issue you are going to support and
ignore
everything else. It does seem that you prescribe to many different
conspiracy theory's. Did you hear the one about LBJ killing Kenned?



The only similarity between this and a political thread is the party that
is
losing the argument based on issues keeps trying to swtich to
personalities.
That's a consistent trend.

I guess whenever someone says they find your argument weak, you assume you
are winning the argument.

Whenever anybody begins name-calling and making disparaging personal remarks
rather than sticking to the issues, I *know* I'm winning the argument.

I just answered another of your "black helicopter" insults (the one you said I
shouldn't take personally). That's the 4th or 5th time you have stooped to
insult in this debate.

Is there any good reason to continue a discussion of the topic at hand just to
provide you with more opportunities to launch flame and insult? I think not.

On 03 Nov 2003 02:21:05 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Is there any good reason to continue a discussion of the topic at hand just to
provide you with more opportunities to launch flame and insult? I think not.

================================================== ======

Actually I can think of a good reason to continue the discussion:
It's been interesting. Is the Power's survey totally biased and
worthless? For all its real or perceived flaws, it's still better
than nothing. Clearly there is nothing in their reported results that
defy reason or common sense. Are their results totally suspect
because they are trying to make a living at what they do? Perhaps no
more so than the marine press with their well known penchant for
writing puff pieces about favored advertisers. Apparently Powers's
customers (the boat manufacturers) find the surveys useful, and not
just for advertising purposes. Do manufacturers use the surveys to
eliminate certain dealers? If so, that may be a good thing. How else
is a builder going to get that kind of information? THe public is
being well served if the builder gets rid of dealers with poor
customer satisfaction ratings.

Chuck, I'm beginning to get the feeling that you are looking at Powers
from an insiders perspective who has been burned in one way or another
by negative survey results sometime in the past. Or is there an issue
in the overall industry with the public getting to see this kind of
information? Builders (and dealers) who don't score well should do a
bit of introspection and see if an improved commitment to quality is
compatible with their business model. If not, they need to learn to
live and prosper with that position rather than try to shoot the
messenger.

Wayne, the fact that JD Powers makes money on their reputation, both with
consumers and the industry is all the reason to expect them NOT TO BIAS THE
SURVEY'S. Since their ability to get companies to pay for the use of the JD
Powers label, it must have an excellent reputation. Only a idiot with an
extremely short outlook would ever expect a company to sell their reputation
for $30,000,

I think Chuck knows this, but for some reason wants to slander an excellent
company.
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On 03 Nov 2003 02:21:05 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Is there any good reason to continue a discussion of the topic at hand
just to
provide you with more opportunities to launch flame and insult? I think
not.

================================================== ======

Actually I can think of a good reason to continue the discussion:
It's been interesting. Is the Power's survey totally biased and
worthless? For all its real or perceived flaws, it's still better
than nothing. Clearly there is nothing in their reported results that
defy reason or common sense. Are their results totally suspect
because they are trying to make a living at what they do? Perhaps no
more so than the marine press with their well known penchant for
writing puff pieces about favored advertisers. Apparently Powers's
customers (the boat manufacturers) find the surveys useful, and not
just for advertising purposes. Do manufacturers use the surveys to
eliminate certain dealers? If so, that may be a good thing. How else
is a builder going to get that kind of information? THe public is
being well served if the builder gets rid of dealers with poor
customer satisfaction ratings.

Chuck, I'm beginning to get the feeling that you are looking at Powers
from an insiders perspective who has been burned in one way or another
by negative survey results sometime in the past. Or is there an issue
in the overall industry with the public getting to see this kind of
information? Builders (and dealers) who don't score well should do a
bit of introspection and see if an improved commitment to quality is
compatible with their business model. If not, they need to learn to
live and prosper with that position rather than try to shoot the
messenger.

Chuck, I'm beginning to get the feeling that you are looking at Powers
from an insiders perspective who has been burned in one way or another
by negative survey results sometime in the past.

Close.

Never burned, but I have seen the shenanigans first hand.

Take the dealer who sent in a "change of address" for each customer shortly
after the sale. Mysteriously, all of his customers seemed to move to a post
office box number after buying a Brand X car. This guy went from so-so in the
satisfaction department to the glowing superstar of the district overnight.
Every single report was "completely satisfied" with just about everything. As a
result, his dealership got bonus shipments of models that were in short supply.
Mfgrs have been known use the results to determine allocation to dealers.
The guy finally got busted after about a year and a half. Disgruntled F&I
manager blew the whistle about the scam. I understand they threatened to pull
his franchise over the whole incident, but the bottom line was the guy was
selling cars like crazy. (You would be too, if your outstanding "satisfaction
rating" earned you a disproportionate number of the hard to get models)

Take the very common practice of the "free tank of gas if you'll let us help
you fill out the survey." Get the customer to bring the survey in, and agree
to address any of the issues the customer would otherwise mark as less than
satisfactory.

Then factor in the aspect of human nature that the guy who is truly satisfied
may or may not have anything to say about his experience. The guy who is ticked
off most definitely will. I have set in CSI reviews with factory reps demanding
to know why the dealership's rating had slipped a couple of points in a month.
Upon examing the individual returns, we'd find that maybe 125 people were
generally pleased and half a dozen or so hadn't (apparently) even bothered to
read the individual questions. In many cases, they just took a pen and would
draw a vertical line straight through all the vertically stacked "completely
unsatisfied" comments. When we'd investigate just why the customer was so
unhappy, about half the time it was because the factory had screwed something
up in the assembly of the car and that particular part had just failed the day
before the guy got the survey. Even though we'd be fixing it free, providing a
loaner, etc, some of these people felt that they had to "get even" for the
inconvenience. As a result, questions like, "How would you rate your sales
person's professionalism?" would get marked "completely unsatisfactory!"

I bought a new Volvo this year, from a local dealer who sells a lot of luxury
car lines. Volvo is the least expensive trademark they carry. (I bought the
least expensive Vovlo made). I was amused to see that nothing has changed in
the survey department. At delivery time, they stressed just how important the
survey I was going to receive was to the dealership.

After I had the car a few days, I got a call from the sales manager asking
whether I had any problem recommending the salesperson. "No, the salesperson
was pretty decent. No problem." The sales manager went on to tell me that a
significant portion of the salesman's income was a bonus that was determined by
how well each survey rated his performance. Bring on the guilt trip.

The day before I got the survey, I got a letter above the signature of one of
the upper level managers in the dealerhship organization. It was almost a plea.
"If there's any reason why you cannot mark us completley satisfactory in every
category, please contact us before you complete the survey and let us try to
make some arrangement to accomodate your concerns."

The opinions expressed by the customers are quite often influenced, and in
some cases very strongly and deliberately, by the selling dealer.

As far as the questions in the survey:
I have sat on dealer advisory councils where the wording of survey questions
and the order in which they should appear on the CSI survey have both been
discussed.
The results of those discussions certainly weren't binding on the survey
company, but somebody sure thought it was important to solicit our opinions. No
way in heck that anybody could say the subject, wording, and order of the
questions isn't ever a topic for discussion. There isn't a true "arm's length"
distance between the survey company and its customers (the manufacturers) that
would be required for the survey to be objective.




It has now been a number of years since these experiences, but I see nothing
that would lead me to suspect that the survey companies have changed tactics.


Perhaps no
more so than the marine press with their well known penchant for
writing puff pieces about favored advertisers.

The most blatant puff pieces ever written were never presented as objective,
scientific research. Just a matter of opinion.