Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.





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This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
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On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

If the warrant is for a violent crime, it's knowledge might be very useful.
--

Freedom Isn't Free!

On 4/20/2021 6:51 AM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

If the warrant is for a violent crime, it's knowledge might be very useful.

I understand but if there is a warrant issued for a violent crime it
should be under investigation and pursuit by other means.

Some kind of compromise is needed to stop the "profiling" concerns.

It's also consistent with law that a stop for one infraction isn't
cause for arrest for another. A database search is convenient but
not necessarily legal, especially if the initial infraction is a
busted taillight.


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On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 7:20:01 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/20/2021 6:51 AM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

If the warrant is for a violent crime, it's knowledge might be very useful.
I understand but if there is a warrant issued for a violent crime it
should be under investigation and pursuit by other means.

Some kind of compromise is needed to stop the "profiling" concerns.

It's also consistent with law that a stop for one infraction isn't
cause for arrest for another. A database search is convenient but
not necessarily legal, especially if the initial infraction is a
busted taillight.

So the fix for stopping arrests of wanted criminals is to just not engage them,
and let them go so things don't get violent? If the person has a history of violence,
you don't think the officer should know about that when making a legal stop?
When you hire someone you do a background check so you know who you are
bringing into your company everyday. But police officers should have their hands
tied and not know who they are dealing with? They are doing a very valuable and
dangerous job, but their moral is at an all-time low and are leaving their jobs at
record rates, at least according to some articles I've read lately. I just can't get
behind your proposal that puts them at real risk.

I have an idea. If the person being stopped could act properly and treat the officer with
the respect they deserve, then there will be no issue and everyone will go on about their day.
However, if the person being stopped has an outstanding warrant for their arrest, I'd like
for the police to get them off the street ASAP to insure the public's safety and security.
If the lawbreaker gets their feelings hurt in the process, well too damn bad. Don't do the crime
if you can't do the time.

On 4/20/2021 9:10 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 7:20:01 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/20/2021 6:51 AM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

If the warrant is for a violent crime, it's knowledge might be very useful.
I understand but if there is a warrant issued for a violent crime it
should be under investigation and pursuit by other means.

Some kind of compromise is needed to stop the "profiling" concerns.

It's also consistent with law that a stop for one infraction isn't
cause for arrest for another. A database search is convenient but
not necessarily legal, especially if the initial infraction is a
busted taillight.

So the fix for stopping arrests of wanted criminals is to just not engage them,
and let them go so things don't get violent? If the person has a history of violence,
you don't think the officer should know about that when making a legal stop?
When you hire someone you do a background check so you know who you are
bringing into your company everyday. But police officers should have their hands
tied and not know who they are dealing with? They are doing a very valuable and
dangerous job, but their moral is at an all-time low and are leaving their jobs at
record rates, at least according to some articles I've read lately. I just can't get
behind your proposal that puts them at real risk.

I have an idea. If the person being stopped could act properly and treat the officer with
the respect they deserve, then there will be no issue and everyone will go on about their day.
However, if the person being stopped has an outstanding warrant for their arrest, I'd like
for the police to get them off the street ASAP to insure the public's safety and security.
If the lawbreaker gets their feelings hurt in the process, well too damn bad. Don't do the crime
if you can't do the time.



The issue is racial profiling and stopping people for a minor
traffic infraction just to see if they happen to be wanted for
something else.

My proposal isn't popular for sure but what else can be done?



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"Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message:r
Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racialprofiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in deaths.My thought:When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimespassenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes asearch for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrantexists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for theminor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but forthe outstanding bench warrant.This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".Maybe that needs to change.What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included inthe "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that causedthe police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a brokentail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check foranything else, based on the officer's suspicions.If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or heris a different issue altogether and other means of apprehendingthe person should be used, specifically with the warrant beingthe issue.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com

I wholeheartedly and unequivically disagree with your proposal. :-)
--
Thanks Donald. Do you miss him yet?


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https://piaohong.s3-us-west-2.amazon...net/index.html

On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 9:30:51 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/20/2021 9:10 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 7:20:01 AM UTC-4, Mr. Luddite wrote:
On 4/20/2021 6:51 AM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

If the warrant is for a violent crime, it's knowledge might be very useful.
I understand but if there is a warrant issued for a violent crime it
should be under investigation and pursuit by other means.

Some kind of compromise is needed to stop the "profiling" concerns.

It's also consistent with law that a stop for one infraction isn't
cause for arrest for another. A database search is convenient but
not necessarily legal, especially if the initial infraction is a
busted taillight.

So the fix for stopping arrests of wanted criminals is to just not engage them,
and let them go so things don't get violent? If the person has a history of violence,
you don't think the officer should know about that when making a legal stop?
When you hire someone you do a background check so you know who you are
bringing into your company everyday. But police officers should have their hands
tied and not know who they are dealing with? They are doing a very valuable and
dangerous job, but their moral is at an all-time low and are leaving their jobs at
record rates, at least according to some articles I've read lately. I just can't get
behind your proposal that puts them at real risk.

I have an idea. If the person being stopped could act properly and treat the officer with
the respect they deserve, then there will be no issue and everyone will go on about their day.
However, if the person being stopped has an outstanding warrant for their arrest, I'd like
for the police to get them off the street ASAP to insure the public's safety and security.
If the lawbreaker gets their feelings hurt in the process, well too damn bad. Don't do the crime
if you can't do the time.

The issue is racial profiling and stopping people for a minor
traffic infraction just to see if they happen to be wanted for
something else.

I guess I misread this?

"The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue."

We can't expect police to stop a vehicle for some traffic violation,
then just walk up to the driver's window without running the plate.
If that's what you are proposing, then expect a lot more dead cops.
Plenty have died doing just that even with running the plates first.

And if a cop pulls someone over and discovers they have an outstanding
warrant for burglary and assault, are you really wanting them to ignore that?
I don't. What if the burglary and assault were at your son's or daughter's house?
Feel differently about that?

My proposal isn't popular for sure but what else can be done?

About racial profiling? It has been deemed unconstitutional for years and there
are various laws against doing it.
"Federal and state laws prohibit racial discrimination or profiling by police in various
ways. The U.S. Constitution guarantees equal protection under the law and protects
individuals from unreasonable search and seizure. The federal Civil Rights Act and
many states civil or human rights acts make it illegal for a government actor
(like the police) to discriminate against someone on the basis of race, color,
or national origin. And a number of states' laws also specifically prohibit officers from
engaging in racial profiling in the performance of their duties."

So are there some bad cops who profile. Likely.
Are there some bad people who falsely accuse cops of profiling them? Likely as well.
One thing is for sure... neutering or defunding the police (which is a bit of what you are
suggesting and what many in today's society want to do) is certainly not the answer. I don't
want to live in a third-world kind of country where the bad guys rule the streets and the police
are powerless to do anything about it. Do you?

On 4/20/2021 11:21 AM, justan wrote:

"Mr. Luddite" Wrote in message:r

Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racialprofiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in deaths.My thought:When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimespassenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes asearch for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrantexists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for theminor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but forthe outstanding bench warrant.This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".Maybe that needs to change.What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included inthe "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that causedthe police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a brokentail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check foranything else, based on the officer's suspicions.If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or heris a different issue altogether and other means of apprehendingthe person should be used, specifically with the warrant beingthe issue.-- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.https://www.avg.com


I wholeheartedly and unequivically disagree with your proposal. :-)




That's ok. I won't hold it against you. :-)

I don't think I have been clear enough but
the heck with it. I guess we'll just have
to keep doing things the same way over and
over and over with no progress ever made
or expected.

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

Cops would be quick to point out, traffic stops solve more felonies
and result in more felony arrests than detective work. Without traffic
stops about half of the drug war wouldn't be able to be prosecuted.
Cops call a traffic stop a "tool", AKA a way to get around your
rights. (searches, interrogations without Miranda etc)
They are not going to give that up.

Look at it another way. If they catch a wanted serial killer on a
traffic stop, do you want him driving away with a speeding ticket and
a smile on his face?

On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 07:20:01 -0400, "Mr. Luddite"
wrote:

On 4/20/2021 6:51 AM, John wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2021 06:30:56 -0400, "Mr. Luddite" wrote:


Been thinking about the race related violence and deaths that seem to be
constantly in the news. The media is fixated on the issue of racial
profiling of minorities, especially black folks who are often being
singled out for stopping by police for minor traffic infractions that
escalate into arrests, resisting and too often violence that result in
deaths.

My thought:


When a officer stops a vehicle for a minor traffic infraction,
he or she runs a "check" via radio on the driver's (and sometimes
passenger's) license or ID. That check automatically includes a
search for any outstanding warrants for that person. If a warrant
exists, the person is often cuffed and arrested .... not for the
minor traffic infraction that they were stopped for ... but for
the outstanding bench warrant.

This often turns into resisting arrest with violent results.

This is standard operating procedure for law enforcement.
Not blaming them ... it's just "how it's done".

Maybe that needs to change.

What if outstanding warrants were not automatically included in
the "check" at the time of the vehicle being stopped?

The stop should be only related to the crime or infraction that caused
the police to stop the person, be it for speeding, a broken
tail light or whatever. It should not be an excuse to check for
anything else, based on the officer's suspicions.

If a person has an outstanding warrant, the search for him or her
is a different issue altogether and other means of apprehending
the person should be used, specifically with the warrant being
the issue.

If the warrant is for a violent crime, it's knowledge might be very useful.

I understand but if there is a warrant issued for a violent crime it
should be under investigation and pursuit by other means.

Some kind of compromise is needed to stop the "profiling" concerns.

It's also consistent with law that a stop for one infraction isn't
cause for arrest for another. A database search is convenient but
not necessarily legal, especially if the initial infraction is a
busted taillight.

The SCOTUS disagrees with you. Once you are on the side of the road
the court has given cops great latitude in what they can do.
These are just a few of the cases I researched

ILLINOIS v. CABALLES dog can search your car on a traffic stop
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/script...s/543/405.html

Terry v. Ohio, stop and frisk

BERKEMER v. McCARTY Cop can ask questions on a traffic stop without
Miranda like have you been Drinking? but it doesn't have to stop
there.

MARYLAND v. WILSON Everyone can be told to get out and be searched

In the process of any of this if something illegal is found, you can
be arrested.

As for the computer search, that horse left the barn over 2 decades
ago when cops got laptops in their cars. Now they are hooked to
license plate scanners and it is likely the cop knows the owner has a
warrant before he even stops the car.
Then the question would be whether knowing the owner has a warrant PC
to stop a car.
OTOH I have never known a cop who said he couldn't find a reason to
pull a car over if he wanted to. There are equipment violations people
commit all the time (I.E most license plate rings are illegal). It is
also hard not to commit some kind of traffic offense if they watch you
long enough and there is always the ubiquitous "weaving".
At the end of the day it is always your word against the cop on a
traffic stop anyway. RADAR guns don't even log anything. It said what
he says it said.

They also understand a guy like you might have a lawyer on speed dial
and the resources to pursue it so they are not as likely to target
you. Is that profiling? Maybe.
A guy with warrants and a public defender is not getting that kind of
sympathy