Normally there is a "leader" who sets the pattern and tone of the posts and
if he is consistent in his attacks and tone, one person can change the
personality of any group. My guess is you have someone who enjoys the name
calling and has been a regular in here for awhile.

All we need to do is look back in Google to see who in here started the
attacks and then we can blame him/her. ; )


"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:25:06 +0000, Joe Parsons wrote:

On 7 Nov 2003 00:53:16 -0600, noah
wrote:
We deserve better. The group deserves better. It is my opinipon that
the
level of OT posting is now inviting outside trolls to pump up the OT.

Again, in case I haven't said it for the last 15 nanoseconds or so: the
problem
in rec.boats is NOT off-topic posts. Those are just fine, IMO.

have been told that "this is the way it is". That rec.boats is
an open forum, like the lounge at the yacht club.

I have belonged to, or been associated with, four yacht clubs in my
life. I
have *never* seen this kind of bickering, even in the most heated
discussions.
Most people just don't behave like this in Real Life(tm). There's too
much risk
of confrontation--even of personal injury. Here, we see lots of
posturing and
rhetoric--but generally from the safety of anonymous accounts.


I gotta side with Joe on this - it's not the OT posts, or even political
"debate" - it's the bipartisanism that invades ALL posts in this NG. If
you're
"conservative" and post an on-topic post, it isn't long before a "liberal"
will
start at the very least making assumptions about the way you think, and
more
likely start attacking you personally. (and vice versa...).

A shiver of dread goes through me every time I send a post, OT or not, to
this
NG, because most replies are vicious, personal and/or political
(fortunately
Canada is Multi-partisan, so there's less "proving" one party is good by
"proving" the other party is bad), and I'm basically sick of it. It's SO
much
easier to wait until someone else posts something and then attack them.

I belong to a fishing message-board and there's also a "OT" (they call it
NFR -
Not Fishing-Related) debate there. But there, the atmosphere is SO much
more
friendly! NFR posts are usually humourous, even the "highjacked" FR posts,
and
there's very little personal attacking (except good-natured barbs, etc)

It's the overall "tone" of this NG, in both on-topic and OT posts, that
makes it
suck so bad.

Lloyd Sumpter, Green Party supporter

"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 08 Nov 2003 06:25:06 +0000, Joe Parsons wrote:

On 7 Nov 2003 00:53:16 -0600, noah
wrote:
We deserve better. The group deserves better. It is my opinipon that
the
level of OT posting is now inviting outside trolls to pump up the OT.

Again, in case I haven't said it for the last 15 nanoseconds or so: the
problem
in rec.boats is NOT off-topic posts. Those are just fine, IMO.

have been told that "this is the way it is". That rec.boats is
an open forum, like the lounge at the yacht club.

I have belonged to, or been associated with, four yacht clubs in my
life. I
have *never* seen this kind of bickering, even in the most heated
discussions.
Most people just don't behave like this in Real Life(tm). There's too
much risk
of confrontation--even of personal injury. Here, we see lots of
posturing and
rhetoric--but generally from the safety of anonymous accounts.


I gotta side with Joe on this - it's not the OT posts, or even political
"debate" - it's the bipartisanism that invades ALL posts in this NG. If
you're
"conservative" and post an on-topic post, it isn't long before a "liberal"
will
start at the very least making assumptions about the way you think, and
more
likely start attacking you personally. (and vice versa...).


And if your boating style or type of boat owned does not meet Eugene Kerns
criteria, you will be flamed by him.

He lives in a glass house but does not realize it. This thread proves it.

Gene Kearns wrote:

Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters. They
may *own* a boat, but their boating is never discussed here. One of
the more arrogant of these idiots admitted he came here only as a
vandal and not to discuss boating. He freely admitted that when he
wished to discuss boating he went elsewhere. When he wanted to engage
in mischief, this is where he came.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is not a movement afoot
among some (consciously, or not) to attempt to disable rec.boats. I
have no real answer for that, but it strengthens my resolve to ignore
these posts and forge on with what we should be discussing here. In
Agent, I just hit the round circle with a diagonal bar through it...
thread is ignored. Whatever you use for a newsreader, I encourage you
to learn about and use its capabilities to ignore inappropriate
threads. In some instances, killfilling a poster may be appropriate,
if they have never made a boating related post... and there are some
of those out there posting, now.

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.


Gene,

Yours and Joe's threads have made me think a bit about this one. While
the defense has always been that this was a "bar-like-setting" and
boaters talk about varied topics when "in port", the level of civility
has diminished to the point of barely tolerable.

I can't think of a single case where any of the partisan sides has
conceded even a single point made by the opposition. The point of debate
is to provoke thought, not just to chest pound your deep rooted
convictions. If no one is willing to change their minds or even consider
other options, then what's the point of further banter?

There area few guys who I respect as being civil and level headed in
their discourse, and enjoy the chance to exchange ideas. But others have
degenerated into posting little more than ad-hominem diatribe.

With this in mind, I think it's time to be man enough to take
responsibility to the slow destruction of this newsgroup as a forum for
boat related topics. With this in mind, I will pledge to ignore
political bantering from now on. I would hope that others do the same,
although I seriously doubt that some personalities can survive without
the attention that their psychological conditions crave. But I'll give
it my best...


Dave

bb wrote:



Of course, I'm willing to listen to rational debate on the issue, as
long as its properly backed up with facts.


If that criteria were strictly adhered to, most of the political banter
would disappear.

Dave

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:35:56 GMT, Dave Hall
wrote:

Gene Kearns wrote:

Many (if not most) of these OT posts are made by non-boaters. They
may *own* a boat, but their boating is never discussed here. One of
the more arrogant of these idiots admitted he came here only as a
vandal and not to discuss boating. He freely admitted that when he
wished to discuss boating he went elsewhere. When he wanted to engage
in mischief, this is where he came.

That got me to thinking. I wonder if there is not a movement afoot
among some (consciously, or not) to attempt to disable rec.boats. I
have no real answer for that, but it strengthens my resolve to ignore
these posts and forge on with what we should be discussing here. In
Agent, I just hit the round circle with a diagonal bar through it...
thread is ignored. Whatever you use for a newsreader, I encourage you
to learn about and use its capabilities to ignore inappropriate
threads. In some instances, killfilling a poster may be appropriate,
if they have never made a boating related post... and there are some
of those out there posting, now.

At any rate, again, the signal to noise ratio has reached the point
where we are losing posters. I'm betting that if we forced the noise
back down to a whisper, the vandals would slink back to their
respective rocks, crawl under, and be quiet.

Think about it, the decision is yours.


Gene,

Yours and Joe's threads have made me think a bit about this one. While
the defense has always been that this was a "bar-like-setting" and
boaters talk about varied topics when "in port", the level of civility
has diminished to the point of barely tolerable.

I can't think of a single case where any of the partisan sides has
conceded even a single point made by the opposition. The point of debate
is to provoke thought, not just to chest pound your deep rooted
convictions. If no one is willing to change their minds or even consider
other options, then what's the point of further banter?

There area few guys who I respect as being civil and level headed in
their discourse, and enjoy the chance to exchange ideas. But others have
degenerated into posting little more than ad-hominem diatribe.

With this in mind, I think it's time to be man enough to take
responsibility to the slow destruction of this newsgroup as a forum for
boat related topics. With this in mind, I will pledge to ignore
political bantering from now on. I would hope that others do the same,
although I seriously doubt that some personalities can survive without
the attention that their psychological conditions crave. But I'll give
it my best...


Dave


Dave,

You and I may have bumped heads in the past, but I appreciate this
post.

noah
Regards,
noah

To email me, remove the "OT-" from wrecked.ot-boats.noah.
....as you were. )

In article , wrecked.ot-
says...

Dave,

You and I may have bumped heads in the past, but I appreciate this
post.

noah

Of course Dave didn't miss a beat since he posted this offering four
days ago.

jps

jps wrote:

In article , wrecked.ot-
says...

Dave,

You and I may have bumped heads in the past, but I appreciate this
post.

noah

Of course Dave didn't miss a beat since he posted this offering four
days ago.

jps

Yes, you are right. I reneged on my own promise. But it seems that I
would've been the only person who would have stopped, as everything has
continued.

So with that, I am going to correct my lapse in credibility and
conviction, and today will be my last contribution to political
discussions. It's pointless anyway. I haven't seen one person modify
their deeply (and often emotionally) held convictions based on the
banter they read here. The tragedy of 9/11 and the events set in motion
from that point on, have deeply polarized the nation. Tolerance for
opposing viewpoints has become increasingly small, and ad-hominem
attacks have become even more frequent. Indeed, guys like you and Doug
do not come off as people who want to discuss the issues from an
idealogical perspective. Rather you're more interested in insulting the
presenters who you disagree with. While both sides are guilty of this to
some degree, the depth that you guys on the left go to to demonize the
opposition, is just appalling. As much as I shake my head in disbelief,
I try to stick to the issue, and not take personal jabs at people, with
the exception of Harry, who is so partisan and hypocritical, that he
deserves to get back what he dishes out.

You may feel justified, as you may feel that your opponents are
comprised of nothing more than "idiots" (otherwise known as an elitist
attitude). But the difference between an idiot and an innovator often
depends on your perspective, and just how well you understand the big
picture.

I base my principles on logic and history. 1+1=2 is just as true today
as it was 100 years ago. The same can be said for many human behaviors.
What worked 100 years ago, can still work today. Not everything new is
necessarily better, and things which are old, aren't necessarily
obsolete. Things like morality, character, honesty, integrity are still
valid today.

Dave

Dave