So I brought home my new project, a 27' Concorde and we were on it today
doing cleaning and pulling out everything that looked rotted or unnecessary.
For the most part everything was really good, but we decided that it would
be best to replace the old cabin flooring as well as the deck.

Some things we found:
1) The current floor used 3/4 inch plywood with contact cemented on
vinyl flooring.
2) The stringers and floor supports are all in good condition (no rot
anywhere but in the deck material and cabin floor).
3) Keep in mind the back deck is about 9.5 feet wide and 11 feet long.
So it is pretty big.

My ideas:
1) For the deck I am thinking of using 3/4 inch plywood (A/B not marine
grade) and then encapsulating it in fiberglass then adding a newer style
gelcoat with non-skid on the top side.
2) For the cabin floor I would use the same plywood encapsulated in
fiberglass again to prevent rot, then carpet over the floor or possibly do
the same treatment as the deck.

Questions:
1) What have you more experienced guys done in my situation?
2) What makes the most sense? I also thought about using Divinicell but
that seems an expensive route, then again it might prevent me from doing
this again. Opinions? Other options?

Also, I am not trying to start a debate on Marine grade vs. high grade (min.
void) plywood. I understand many people feel extremely strong regarding
this topic, but I do value any opinions or experiences. I don't want to do
this again in 2 years.

Thanks!
Mark.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:10:05 GMT, "Mark Davis"
wrote:

I don't want to do
this again in 2 years.

===========================

Exactly, and compared to the value of your time and effort, the very
best (and correct) materials don't cost that much more. Why turn your
project into a durability experiment?

So I am assuming that you are saying that Marine grade plywood is the way to
go... What about the rest of the job? As far as finishing the deck?

And I agree if it is an issue where I would be replacing the deck again in 2
years then I will spend the extra ~$200 and get marine grade. So far that
hasn't been proven to me, given that I would encapsulate the entire deck
(top, bottom and sides) both woods should have the same strength and last
about the same... Right? I know marine grade lays their layers at a 45 deg
angle where as A/B lays at 90 degrees, but the glues are both the same and
the voids are minimial in either.

I'm open, if you think I am missing something please provide some details.

Thanks!
Mark.

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 01:10:05 GMT, "Mark Davis"
wrote:

I don't want to do
this again in 2 years.

===========================

Exactly, and compared to the value of your time and effort, the very
best (and correct) materials don't cost that much more. Why turn your
project into a durability experiment?

..
"Mark Davis" wrote in message
nk.net...

snip

My ideas:
1) For the deck I am thinking of using 3/4 inch plywood (A/B not
marine
grade) and then encapsulating it in fiberglass then adding a newer style
gelcoat with non-skid on the top side.

I have no trouble with using good quality fir plywood in an application such
as this as long as you coat both sides, edges, and any screw holes in epoxy.
Spend the money on the epoxy, not the plywood.

I see no need to use any glass. I also see no need to go thicker than 1/2"
unless the stringers are more than 24" o/c. Half inch may be a little
springy, but shouldn't be a problem.

Gel coat is not a good coating -- indeed the only advantage of gel-coat is
that it is easy to spray into a mold -- many expensive glass boats are
painted, at least for boat shows. Instead, use a two part urethane, or just
the epoxy, paying attention to the fact that raw epoxy is not UV resistant.

Remember that in using fir, you will have troubles with the grain showing
through. Best thing is to coat the sheets before installing, while they are
flat, with enough epoxy so the fir is hidden under an epoxy lake. West
System has instructions for doing this.

2) For the cabin floor I would use the same plywood encapsulated in
fiberglass again to prevent rot, then carpet over the floor or possibly do
the same treatment as the deck.

Same comments. Here the question about thickness applies even more. Our
Swan 57 had a 1/2" plywood cabin sole.


--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


..

You're getting good advice from two directions. If $200 is important in your
life use fir plywood and hope your encapsulation efforts were merely PERFECT.

I, OTOH, being totally anal would not sleep well knowing the job I'd done was
not as perfect as I could make it. Really, it would disturb my sleep!! I
often wish it wouldn't, but what can I do? So, I'd use the best marine grade
ply I could find and treat it IAW WEST System advice. Get their excellent book
if you do not have it.

Yes, it's true..... I wax the gelcoat in my boat's bilge. :=)

Butch

"Mark Davis" wrote in message
ink.net...

snip

My ideas:
1) For the deck I am thinking of using 3/4 inch plywood (A/B not
marine
grade) and then encapsulating it in fiberglass then adding a newer style
gelcoat with non-skid on the top side.

I have no trouble with using good quality fir plywood in an application such
as this as long as you coat both sides, edges, and any screw holes in epoxy.
Spend the money on the epoxy, not the plywood.

I see no need to use any glass. I also see no need to go thicker than 1/2"
unless the stringers are more than 24" o/c. Half inch may be a little
springy, but shouldn't be a problem.

Gel coat is not a good coating -- indeed the only advantage of gel-coat is
that it is easy to spray into a mold -- many expensive glass boats are
painted, at least for boat shows. Instead, use a two part urethane, or just
the epoxy, paying attention to the fact that raw epoxy is not UV resistant.

Remember that in using fir, you will have troubles with the grain showing
through. Best thing is to coat the sheets before installing, while they are
flat, with enough epoxy so the fir is hidden under an epoxy lake. West
System has instructions for doing this.

2) For the cabin floor I would use the same plywood encapsulated in
fiberglass again to prevent rot, then carpet over the floor or possibly do
the same treatment as the deck.

Same comments. Here the question about thickness applies even more. Our
Swan 57 had a 1/2" plywood cabin sole.


--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com

Jim,
Swan did you say. Are they all they're said to be?
Paul

"Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at attbi dot com wrote in message
...
snipped

Same comments. Here the question about thickness applies even more. Our
Swan 57 had a 1/2" plywood cabin sole.


--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


.

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 13:27:03 GMT, "Mark Davis"
wrote:

I'm open, if you think I am missing something please provide some details.

===============================================

This discussion goes on endlessly in the "rec.boats.building" news
group. If you do a Google search there is a lot of information and
debate out there. The bottom line is that marine plywood is designed
for a long life in a high moisture (marine) environment, i.e., better
quality wood, few if any voids.

It all comes down to how you value your time and the long term
durability of the results. One thing becomes clear from the various
discussions: The professionals would not use anything else.

I appreciate the advice and so far have headed down the road with 3/4 inch
Marine Grade, I found a good supply for a reasonable price and have started
the redecking. I figure I will get it all cut and layed out then take it
all out of the boat and start epoxying it. Seems like the only way to
ensure I get EVERY edge, surface etc.

Thanks Again, I appreciate the help and advice!

Mark.


"Mark Davis" wrote in message
nk.net...
So I brought home my new project, a 27' Concorde and we were on it today
doing cleaning and pulling out everything that looked rotted or
unnecessary.
For the most part everything was really good, but we decided that it would
be best to replace the old cabin flooring as well as the deck.

Some things we found:
1) The current floor used 3/4 inch plywood with contact cemented on
vinyl flooring.
2) The stringers and floor supports are all in good condition (no rot
anywhere but in the deck material and cabin floor).
3) Keep in mind the back deck is about 9.5 feet wide and 11 feet long.
So it is pretty big.

My ideas:
1) For the deck I am thinking of using 3/4 inch plywood (A/B not
marine
grade) and then encapsulating it in fiberglass then adding a newer style
gelcoat with non-skid on the top side.
2) For the cabin floor I would use the same plywood encapsulated in
fiberglass again to prevent rot, then carpet over the floor or possibly do
the same treatment as the deck.

Questions:
1) What have you more experienced guys done in my situation?
2) What makes the most sense? I also thought about using Divinicell
but
that seems an expensive route, then again it might prevent me from doing
this again. Opinions? Other options?

Also, I am not trying to start a debate on Marine grade vs. high grade
(min.
void) plywood. I understand many people feel extremely strong regarding
this topic, but I do value any opinions or experiences. I don't want to
do
this again in 2 years.

Thanks!
Mark.

Nautor, like all of the boat manufacturers, has had good years and bad
years. And Swans have good points and bad points:

Ours was a 1982 Swan 57 centerboard sloop. We bought her in 1994 from a
couple who had spent seven years in the Caribbean, living aboard, had never
owned a boat before, and didn't understand the word "maintenance". The
following apply to original Nautor work, not the accretions of time.

Some of the wiring was solid and not tinned. All of the 13 year old wiring
was marginal and we replaced it.
The hull was wet -- had to be dried and epoxied.
The masthead and steering sheaves were plain bearing, nylon and stainless.
We replaced them all with Harken sheaves.

But:
Sayula II (Swan 65) won the first Whitbread. She did a 180 in the Southern
Ocean and came up with essentially no damage.
We had a rigger go over the whole rig. Even though the rig was 13 years
old, and we told him, "We're going around the world -- replace anything you
have the slightest question about", he could find nothing to replace (all
Norseman fittings).
All of the veneers are thick enough so once we had cleaned up and touched up
below, you could not tell the boat was not new.
All of the cushions we took around the world were original and had been
lived on 24/7 for seven years. They looked fine.
Everything in the boat is part of the structure, all tabbed into the hull.
The mast step is an H shaped weldment fabbed from 1" aluminum, a foot high,
18" wide, and four feet long. The detailing is excellent.
We never worried about the boat being strong enough. Many of the voyagers
we met had serious problems.

So, although I can tell horror stories about almost every manufacturer, I'd
rather have a Swan, any Swan, than any other stock boat. There are other
stock boats I would happily sail offshore and many I wouldn't take out of
sight of land.



--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


..
"Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote in message
news
Jim,
Swan did you say. Are they all they're said to be?
Paul

"Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at attbi dot com wrote in message
...
snipped

Same comments. Here the question about thickness applies even more.
Our
Swan 57 had a 1/2" plywood cabin sole.


--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


.

Jim,
Good info, thanks.
Paul

"Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at attbi dot com wrote in message
...
Nautor, like all of the boat manufacturers, has had good years and bad
years. And Swans have good points and bad points:

Ours was a 1982 Swan 57 centerboard sloop. We bought her in 1994 from a
couple who had spent seven years in the Caribbean, living aboard, had
never
owned a boat before, and didn't understand the word "maintenance". The
following apply to original Nautor work, not the accretions of time.

Some of the wiring was solid and not tinned. All of the 13 year old wiring
was marginal and we replaced it.
The hull was wet -- had to be dried and epoxied.
The masthead and steering sheaves were plain bearing, nylon and stainless.
We replaced them all with Harken sheaves.

But:
Sayula II (Swan 65) won the first Whitbread. She did a 180 in the
Southern
Ocean and came up with essentially no damage.
We had a rigger go over the whole rig. Even though the rig was 13 years
old, and we told him, "We're going around the world -- replace anything
you
have the slightest question about", he could find nothing to replace (all
Norseman fittings).
All of the veneers are thick enough so once we had cleaned up and touched
up
below, you could not tell the boat was not new.
All of the cushions we took around the world were original and had been
lived on 24/7 for seven years. They looked fine.
Everything in the boat is part of the structure, all tabbed into the hull.
The mast step is an H shaped weldment fabbed from 1" aluminum, a foot
high,
18" wide, and four feet long. The detailing is excellent.
We never worried about the boat being strong enough. Many of the voyagers
we met had serious problems.

So, although I can tell horror stories about almost every manufacturer,
I'd
rather have a Swan, any Swan, than any other stock boat. There are other
stock boats I would happily sail offshore and many I wouldn't take out of
sight of land.



--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


.
"Paul Schilter" paulschilter@comcast,dot,net wrote in message
news
Jim,
Swan did you say. Are they all they're said to be?
Paul

"Jim Woodward" jameslwoodward at attbi dot com wrote in message
...
snipped

Same comments. Here the question about thickness applies even more.
Our
Swan 57 had a 1/2" plywood cabin sole.


--
Jim Woodward
www.mvFintry.com


.