"basskisser" wrote in message
om...
"Calif Bill" wrote in message
link.net...
"Steve Daniels" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 11 Aug 2004 20:15:03 GMT, something compelled "Calif
Bill" , to say:


attributions lost

Nobody mentioned jetskis.

Not me.


Some places have outlawed jetskis. I don't think they should be
prohibited, but I do think we ought to be allowed to shoot at
them.

And nobody mentioned sailboats. They may be quiet, but their
tendency
(is) to
think that they own the water, and can make a 90 degree turn in front
of
a
power boat, whether the powerboat is doing a loud 60 or a quiet 25.

If the sail boat is beating against the wind, you can expect
these turns, especially if the sailboat in question is about to
run out of water. But, much like a pedestrian has the right of
way in a crosswalk, it's not always a good idea to step out into
traffic. Creating a dangerous situation is *not* a provision of
the rules of the road, and the overtaken boat is required to
maintain course and speed until the situation is resolved.

We have the problem in SF bay, that the sailboats think they have the
right
of way over any power boat. They will cross in front of large container
ship coming in the Golden Gate and state they are sail and have right of
way. 2 points. One they do not have right of way over a restricted
channel
vessel and two, they are losers in the physics world of bigger mass
wins. I
have had them come out of the Alameda estuary channel, and turn right in
front of me with sails up, and they still have the iron sail running.
Then
yell at me they have the right of way. Well, if they are in a crash,
and
hurt my $20,000 boat, they will find out that they are going to buy me a
$100,000 boat. Both because they were under power, and 2nd, they have
to
maintain course as they are being overtaken.

Ah, so all of a sudden you LIKE law suit lawyers?

I actually have friends that are lawyers. Do you have any friends? And If
they sink my boat and injure me, I am going to be made whole.

Dave Hall wrote in message . ..
On 11 Aug 2004 12:27:38 -0700, (basskisser) wrote:



Why would one who is not racing boats, need to make them as loud as
possible, only to gain a mile or two an hour?

Why does one have to race to enjoy going fast? I used to enjoy playing
an occasional game of football when I was a kid, that doesn't mean I
need to join a professional team.

Where did I say that you shouldn't enjoy going fast? What I asked was,
does one mile an hour give you that much joy, to have to have
completely open exhaust? Jeez, if so, walk, three miles an hour should
really excite you!

If walking at 3 MPH excited me, I would 've bought a sailboat. When it
comes to the subject of maximum performance, you either understand it,
or you don't. Have you ever watched the things that car racing guys do
to pick up an additional few MPH? The same thing goes for the guys on
water. The biggest difference is that the legal speed limits generally
make recreational racing illegal on the road. On the water, this is
usually not the case. Guys are free to take part in impromptu "races"
at any time. Obviously the drive to win will push these guys to use
every resource at their disposal to make their boat as fast as
possible (or that they can afford to spend). There is almost endless
prop swapping, engine tweaks, waxing the bottom, cutting out excess
weight etc. A race can be won or lost by 1 MPH.

If you think that's silly then you don't get it. Nothing wrong with
that, but don't denigrate those who do.


Why would these people
have a need to run them near people, instead of open water?

How do you get to the open water?

You don't have to go wide open to get there do you?

But you can, so why not, if it's what you enjoy?

Dave

So, if I live next door to you, and I enjoy blasting my Studio Master
loudspeakers outside, at 1 a.m., it's completely acceptable to you?

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
news:b7vSc.18339 And nobody mentioned sailboats. They may be quiet,
but
their tendency to
think that they own the water, and can make a 90 degree turn in
front
of
a
power boat, whether the powerboat is doing a loud 60 or a quiet 25.

If you are overtaking us it's your responsibility to stay clear.



It is up to you not to make changes in front of another boat! If we are
overtaking, the rules say we can expect you to hold course.
Bill



Maybe, but if the sailboat's approaching a hazard like a sand bar and HAS
to
turn, you may have to use common sense and let him do what's necessary.
The
hell with the law.



We have them turn in front of power boats in the middle of San Francisco
bay. No sandbar for at least 1 mile in any direction. Those who challenge
the big freighters under the Golden Gate bridge are in 200'+ water.

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
news

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
news:b7vSc.18339 And nobody mentioned sailboats. They may be
quiet,
but
their tendency to
think that they own the water, and can make a 90 degree turn in
front
of
a
power boat, whether the powerboat is doing a loud 60 or a quiet
25.

If you are overtaking us it's your responsibility to stay clear.



It is up to you not to make changes in front of another boat! If we
are
overtaking, the rules say we can expect you to hold course.
Bill



Maybe, but if the sailboat's approaching a hazard like a sand bar and
HAS
to
turn, you may have to use common sense and let him do what's necessary.
The
hell with the law.



We have them turn in front of power boats in the middle of San Francisco
bay. No sandbar for at least 1 mile in any direction. Those who
challenge
the big freighters under the Golden Gate bridge are in 200'+ water.



So, get on the radio and say something to the captain instead of bitching
about it here.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
news

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
news

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Don White" wrote in message
...

"Calif Bill" wrote in message
news:b7vSc.18339 And nobody mentioned sailboats. They may be
quiet,
but
their tendency to
think that they own the water, and can make a 90 degree turn in
front
of
a
power boat, whether the powerboat is doing a loud 60 or a quiet
25.

If you are overtaking us it's your responsibility to stay clear.



It is up to you not to make changes in front of another boat! If we
are
overtaking, the rules say we can expect you to hold course.
Bill



Maybe, but if the sailboat's approaching a hazard like a sand bar and
HAS
to
turn, you may have to use common sense and let him do what's
necessary.
The
hell with the law.



We have them turn in front of power boats in the middle of San Francisco
bay. No sandbar for at least 1 mile in any direction. Those who
challenge
the big freighters under the Golden Gate bridge are in 200'+ water.



So, get on the radio and say something to the captain instead of bitching
about it here.



They probably also do not listen to the radio. Sort of like your bitching
here about politics.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:38:52 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Dave Hall wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:24:54 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:


Why would these people
have a need to run them near people, instead of open water?

How do you get to the open water?

You don't have to go wide open to get there do you?

But you can, so why not, if it's what you enjoy?

Dave


Because it is noisy, obnoxious behavior that can and often does intrude
upon others.

Your opinions are obnoxious behavior that intrudes upon others. So who
are you to make value judgements?

Ahh, but there's a difference. If you think my opinions represent
obnoxious behavior, you can filter me out or not read them, eh? But when
assholes like you drive by in their unmuffled penis boats, one cannot
filter you out. Your obnoxious behavior is right there...

You can always leave if it bothers you so much. It must really suck
being someone who is so sensitive to others activities to the point
that you would vocally oppose their right to enjoy life, because they
"bother" you.


Which is more than made up for by the "hi five" signs they get from
others who appreciate the fine art of high performance.

There's nothing "high performance" about these overpowered stock boats.
They're mostly just deep vees with huge modified car engines. What a
yawner.

And once again, you demonstrate your extreme ignorance of the subject.
Stick to language obfuscation, you obviously know little about
mechanics or engineering subjects.

High performance hull designs have evolved considerably in the last
several years. There is much more to a high performance boat than an
"Overpowered deep V".
On the subject of engines, how many inboard engines do you know of,
that aren't "modified car engines"? Nothing earth shattering about
that revelation.

Trying reading a little on the subject before you subject yourself to
another helping of shoe leather....

Dave

Dave Hall wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 12:38:52 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:

Dave Hall wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 08:24:54 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote:


Why would these people
have a need to run them near people, instead of open water?

How do you get to the open water?

You don't have to go wide open to get there do you?

But you can, so why not, if it's what you enjoy?

Dave


Because it is noisy, obnoxious behavior that can and often does intrude
upon others.

Your opinions are obnoxious behavior that intrudes upon others. So who
are you to make value judgements?

Ahh, but there's a difference. If you think my opinions represent
obnoxious behavior, you can filter me out or not read them, eh? But when
assholes like you drive by in their unmuffled penis boats, one cannot
filter you out. Your obnoxious behavior is right there...

You can always leave if it bothers you so much. It must really suck
being someone who is so sensitive to others activities to the point
that you would vocally oppose their right to enjoy life, because they
"bother" you.

Ahh, but this is the fallacy in your position. Folks enjoying peace and
quiet, and some asshole with a loud boat comes by and shatters it all.
And stays around. So...the folks who were enjoying the peace and quiet
are the ones who should leave.





--
"There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, probably in
Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me -
you can't get fooled again." -George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept.
17, 2002

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:45:52 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

It's a perfect example of a strawman. It does not reflect reality.

Sorry, Dave, but this refers to Lake George. The same scenario repeats
itself on Seneca Lake, Cayuga Lake, Canandaigua Lake, Conesus Lake, and
plenty of others.

Guys run offshore performance boats there?

Absolutely. Of the last 4 lakes I mentioned, the first 3 are quite large.
Plenty of room to move. Conesus is too small for offshore boats, but that
doesn't stop a significant number of fools from owning them anyway. Then,
there's Lake Ontario. It's about 45 miles across, measuring north-south.
There's a 10 acre spot a few minutes from where I launch. That spot's
traditionally been a big attraction for fishermen. You meet 90 year old guys
who say "Yip....if ya wanna git ya some bass, you wanna drift across the
lumps right off from Hedges" (a restaurant clearly visible from the shore).


On a dead-calm evening, in water that begins at 25 feet and drops off
quickly to over 400 feet, can you explain why one speedboat after another
has has to roar within a few hundred feet of a bunch of 14-20 ft boats? At
the speeds they're going, they could move out a 1/2 mile in 30-40 seconds.

No I can't, but there must be a reason, otherwise why do it?


Assuming that you're 100% factual, and have not injected any bias or
prejudice into your "strawman", the fact that ONE guy acts like an
idiot does not translate to the whole sport being subject to the same
prejudice.

The "one guy" must have a lot of cousins who think alike, because they're
everywhere.

I've never seen them on any of my usual haunts, which includes the
Chesapeake Bay

Look in a mirror. You seem to suggest that you think it's just fine to
deliver lots of noise to people looking for quiet.


As opposed to demanding quiet from people looking to make noise?
Another value judgement?

Like in most things in life, people enjoy different things in
recreation. In the area of boating, we all have one thing in common; a
love of the water. Beyond that and the similarities end and the
differences begin. Some people like hanging in a few selected places
and fishing. Other people like harnessing the power of the wind and
converting it into free propulsion. Others enjoy water toys. And even
others like to run fast. Some people like a glass smooth water, others
actually like chop.

Where am I going with all this? The point is that many people enjoy
different things on the water. Many of those activities clash with the
activities of others. In order for everyone to get along to a
reasonable degree, there has to be some sort of compromise. One of the
first rules of compromise is not to automatically assume that "the
other guy" has the responsibility to "adjust" all the time.
Another important rule is to not set your expectations too high. You
can't expect to venture out on a crowded waterway, and not encounter
chop, wakes and some noise. Yet another rule is to put yourself in the
other guy's shoes before you're ready to trash his particular
activity. How would you like it someone was calling for restrictions
on your activity simply because they were "annoyed" by it? "Ah!" you
might say, "I don't have to worry, my activity does not bother
anyone". Really? Try looking at it from the other guy's point of view.
Name any boating activity, and I can assign some level of "annoyance
factor" to it.

One of the worst (arrogant) things you can do is make a value
judgement of what someone else's activity is "worth", based on your
perceptions of it. We all have the right to pursue our leisure
activities to some degree, within the boundaries of public safety and
welfare.

That being said, some people flaunt their activities a little too
much, and at inappropriate times. If you're running a loud boat, for
God's sake, don't run it when the rest of the marina is sleeping. If
you're sailing, don't cut over in front of an overtaking powerboat
because you feel you can. If you like to fish, don't do it in the
middle of a narrow transit channel, and then have the nerve to get
angry when boats pass by and "wake" you to death.

Waterskiiers and fishermen both seem to like sheltered coves to do
their thing in. To the fisherman, the skiboat creates continual wakes
and noise, and is a source of annoyance. To the skier, the fisherman
is an obstacle in the way of his "course" and is also a source of
annoyance.

Boating is one activity were a little tolerance is sorely needed. You
guys on the left are always touting the virtues of diversity and
tolerance as healthy and enriches our culture. I find it curious that
these same traits are not applied when it comes to our recreational
activities.

Dave

Dave Hall wrote:




Where am I going with all this? The point is that many people enjoy
different things on the water. Many of those activities clash with the
activities of others.


The answer, obviously, is to enforce the same sorts of noise
restrictions on the water as are enforced on land. If you are within
earshot of others in coves, creeks or on shore, effective engine
muffling is required.

If the penisboaters don't like it, they can always go offshore. Way
offshore.


--
"There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, probably in
Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me -
you can't get fooled again." -George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept.
17, 2002

On Thu, 12 Aug 2004 16:50:37 GMT, "Doug Kanter"
wrote:

"Dave Hall" wrote in message
.. .

When it
comes to the subject of maximum performance, you either understand it,
or you don't. Have you ever watched the things that car racing guys do
to pick up an additional few MPH?

We know all about it. But, if you drove most race cars on the street, you'd
be ticketed or arrested, even if just for the noise some of them make.
That's why there are race tracks.

Race cars, for the most part, are not street legal. There are stock
classes which are, and there would be no problem.



The same thing goes for the guys on
water.

What they do offshore is their business.

Until you decide to fish offshore. Then the noise would "bother" you
again.


The noise they sometimes choose to
make around boats is everyone's business. And I use the word "choose"
because based on what I've learned by reading some of the messages here,
it's possible for such boats to be quiet with the use of certain mechanical
devices. Therefore, if they choose not to be quiet, they fully intend to
disturb. The only other possibility is that they're complete idiots.

Binary thinking. Not all (and in fact the majority of boats that I'm
familiar with) do not have exhaust diverters. Mine doesn't, and most
of my friends boats do not either. So there may not be a choice. And
ironically, in the state of PA, they are considered illegal.

I've installed baffles in my exhausts to take the edge off the noise.
As I get older, I find less need to run at maximum speed, so I took
the 1-2 MPH hit that the extra backpressure of the baffles created, in
exchange for a more "audibly friendly" boat. But if I wanted to remove
them, I'd have to remove a bolt from each pipe. Not practical for guys
who need to be ready for an impromptu race at any given time.


Dave