On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 08:16:30 -0400, Dave Hall
wrote:
As I get older, I find my tolerance for
noise to be less, which is why I shoved a set of baffles in my
exhausts. Yea, it trimmed a little off the top end, but I don't run
flat out all that much any more, and it makes the boat much more
friendly to everyone else. The last thing I want to do is make enemies
of fellow boaters.

=============================

Thank you. Please pass the advice onto others.

In article , Dave Hall
wrote:



That you would denigrate a person's recreational choice down to the
category of "a toy" is telling in itself, and indicates a lack of
understanding of the sport. Many people enjoy running fast, but do not
desire (or cannot afford) to "race" officially. The same performance
considerations affect both "official" racers and weekend warriors.


Lack of understanding? Sorry but these ARE toys. Just as my boats are
toys. They are not a necessity, and that is my word of choice. No
offense was intended, but I'll certainly make no apologies for its use.


What constitutes "a bunch of noise" is usually a matter of
subjectivity and personal preference. Personally, my boating day would
not be complete without hearing the sweet sounds of many finely tuned
big blocks running at 4000 RPM as they pass by. Now these boats are
not overly loud in my opinion. They do not impair conversation nor do
they drown out the stereo.


That's odd, an unmuffled boat exhaust within fifty feet of me with that
exhaust aimed in my direction does in fact impair both my conversation and
stereo listening enjoyment. Once again, if it's a quick arrival,
departure, or passer by, I can deal with it. If its someone who feels the
need to hear loud noises, then let them move near an AFB or NAS, rather
than annoy those around them who merely wish to relax in peace and quiet.

As for ear splitting sound. Maybe maybe not. My criteria for annoyance
in this matter is obviously lower than yours, as I find it annoying long
before any physical damage to my hearing is done. While I can't speak
for everyone, for me it's often not just the noise, its the intent. If an
unmuffled boat idles by, I may not like it, but as you state, it will come
to pass. I have friendly acquaintances at a marina I frequent, two
couples, each with an offshore. They idle in and out quickly and at
reasonable times of day, no problem.

Some people just don't get it. If you have a boat with unmuffled thru
transoms with no diverter, then you have to be responsible enough to
understand that not everyone likes and/or appreciates the sound. This
feeling is also very time dependant.


Amen. And for that we appreciate those of you that at least make the
attempt of consideration. Unfortunately, I have seen all too many people
who as you say "don't get it", that is why I and others have a problem.

To infer that we as a group are intolerant becuase we don't want to have
to scream at the person next to us just becuase someone wants EVERYONE to
hear how powerful his boat is by choosing not to use his exhaust diverter,
well that may seem intolerant to you, but I might be more tolerant in far
more areas. Don't judge me or anyone else just because we don't
understand the need for anyone who can afford boating to call attention to
themselves. The behaviour is selfish, and quite frankly, unessarily
redundant.

Making the assumption that people who enjoy performance boats, are all
going though a mid-life crisis, need a "penis extension", or are
somehow just looking to show off, is being judgmental and stereotyping
in the worst way.


Your right, not everyone in your goup deserves to be maligned. As I
stated, I have friendly acquaintances that do not fit this maligned
description of offshore powerboaters. However, I've see far more people
in these boats that exercise rude behavior that screams "Me, me, me.
**** you." These people help myself and others to form a general opinion
that is unfavorable. Don't blame me because alot of people I've come
across in your category of boating cannot exercise even the least bit of
common courtesy or common sense.




I would agree right up until your quip about a person's ego. Once
again you are making a judgement. There are many technical reasons why
performance boats are loud. Considering that once you reach the 50 MPH
area, it takes roughly between 10 and 15 HP to gain each additional 1
MPH, every little bit of gain helps. Installing a free flowing exhaust
system (Including tuned headers or a better manifold), can net you up
to 30 more HP (Which means 2 more MPH). It would be great if every
boat had a "captain's call" exhaust diverter, but the truth is that
many don't (mine doesn't). As I get older, I find my tolerance for
noise to be less, which is why I shoved a set of baffles in my
exhausts. Yea, it trimmed a little off the top end, but I don't run
flat out all that much any more, and it makes the boat much more
friendly to everyone else. The last thing I want to do is make enemies
of fellow boaters.


You don't agree with my last statement about ego, fine. No, not every
boat has a diverter system. But maybe they should, and maybe they're use
should be mandatory at idle speeds in a port. That would end our
nitpicking of this topic real quick.

I could be wrong here, but it was my understanding that all new
performance boats were required to have this type of equipment. If so why
aren't these devices being used by their captains? How you you describe
someone who has this device, yet chooses to refrain from muffling their
exhause at idle speed in a port? You don't have to explain that "every
little bit helps", were all aware of that. But tell me, on Lake Erie,
which is almost NEVER flat enough to run even close to WOT for these types
of vessels, why does this person need an unmuffled exhaust to gain that
extra 30HP that they cannot possibly use at their top end?

If these things don't describe someone taking their ego out for exercise
then what do they say? And please don't argue the "performance for
performance's sake" aspect as if everyone in this boating category is so
dedicated and methodical about performance that they should be wearing
white lab coats, and jotting into notebooks. Frankly, I really don't
see that. While I'll concede there are people who have a genuine
interest, the guts, the skills, and the venue, for pushing the performance
envelope within this boating goup, I do not think they comprise the
majority. I think its ego for most.




How about the guy fifteen feet away, who is revving up each of engine to
"tune" it in from of his girlfriend.

Most women have no clue (or do they want to know) what a tuned up
engine is supposed to sound like, unless she's one of those rare
female gearheads. If it were me reving the engine, my wife would turn
to me and ask "Must you do that?"


Unfortuantely, i am a bad typist. What I was trying to convey what this
person was revving his engines for twenty minutes and not doing anything
useful. It was merely to impress a woman who as you say did not have a
clue. Even if he was doing something useful, with an unmuffled exhaust
it might have been nice if he thought to warn his neighbors about what he
was trying to do and how long it might take so we could make the choice to
leave and come back later, rather than wondering how long we'll be subject
to "RPM scales"

How about the little dickhead fifty feet away who comes back for the bars
at 3am and feels the need to rev his engines for a few minutes to show
off.

Who's he showing off to at 3:00 AM?


For all I know, the Queen of England. At 3:00am does it matter?

How about the idiot whose exhaust is two feet from the beam of your boat,
where your bunk is, who starts his boat at 7:30 am sunday morning then
leisurely proceeds, to remove his spring lines, power cord, fenders, takes
a dump in the marina bathroom, quickly departing at 7:50am?

I guess he wants to make sure the engine is thoroughly warmed up
before shoving off. At 5:30 AM even normal outboards or standard
inboards are loud. When I was a marina rat in 1982-84, I used to be
woken up regularly at that time when the gung-ho fishermen would fire
off toward that distant fishing hole. Yet those same guys had the
nerve to bitch when we cruised back into the marina at 2:30 in the
morning after a night of partying. And we didn't even have a
performance boat then.


High performance boat, fisherman, or sailboat. I have little respect for
someone who doesn't plan a quick arrival or departure during quiet times.
When you have a boat producing very loud exhaust noises this malignant
feeling increases. When that exhaust is two feet from my bunk, I jot down
his registration numbers and wish him good luck at ever seeing a dock
space open to him in this marina in the future.

These three people alone are the reasons I would vote for tougher noise
laws within a mile from any shoreline.

It's a shame that a few people wreck things for the rest of us.

Dave

Your right, Dave, it is a shame. You also cite excellent examples that
bad behavior is by no means reserved for performance powerboaters. We
could just as easily be talking about another group, and I would have
stories to back my opinions up. You probably think I came into this
discussion and am leaving with a permanent bias against performance power
boaters, and you'd be at least half right. My experiences with alot of
them have been less than useful.

However, I would like to state that people like you, who can conduct a
reasonable conversation, and excerises courtesy towards other boaters,
goes a long way to help me stay a little more open minded, and judge the
person by their behavior and not just the boat. Even if that boat happens
to be louder than I like :^)

Thank you, take care, and happy boating!

Bob Dimond

"JGK" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
When people say "Our military has lost track of hundreds of Stinger
missiles
and they have gotten into the wrong hands", it's really true. I know
whose
hands are the right ones. :-)

Damn you are one sick puppy... bitching about the inconsiderate people
with
the performance boats, then yapping about the barking dogs and trying to
figure out if it would be better to shoot or poison them..
All things considered, I rather have the inconsiderate perfomance boater
as
a neighbor than you.



That's silly. You know that.

"JGK" wrote in message
...

Its the people not the bots that are a
problem.

But GENERALLY speaking, certain kinds of people seem to get their hands on
certain kinds of toys, and aren't smart or considerate enough to use them
without driving others crazy. So, the two things (people and toys) can't
really be separated.

I think the real answer is the manufacturers should set the boats up to
transmit more of the noise toward the inside of the boat and less outside. Then
everyone is happy.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ...
"JGK" wrote in message
...

Its the people not the bots that are a
problem.

But GENERALLY speaking, certain kinds of people seem to get their hands on
certain kinds of toys, and aren't smart or considerate enough to use them
without driving others crazy. So, the two things (people and toys) can't
really be separated.

Around these parts, we call them "penis boats", because they are
nothing more than a phallic symbol for those lacking in that
department, UNLESS you actually race boats, different story all
together. But, if you just generally go to where the crowds are, and
make noise, etc., then yes, it's a substitute for a real penis. You
know who you are...

"WaIIy" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 4 Aug 2004 22:32:46 -0400, "JGK" wrote:


"Doug Kanter" wrote in message
...
When people say "Our military has lost track of hundreds of Stinger
missiles
and they have gotten into the wrong hands", it's really true. I know
whose
hands are the right ones. :-)

Damn you are one sick puppy... bitching about the inconsiderate people
with
the performance boats, then yapping about the barking dogs and trying to
figure out if it would be better to shoot or poison them..
All things considered, I rather have the inconsiderate perfomance boater
as
a neighbor than you.


Actually, Doug is probably a pretty good neighbor.

Hmmm. Wally defending ME? Something's fishy here.

On Thu, 05 Aug 2004 11:24:26 -0400, (Bob
D.) wrote:

In article , Dave Hall
wrote:



That you would denigrate a person's recreational choice down to the
category of "a toy" is telling in itself, and indicates a lack of
understanding of the sport. Many people enjoy running fast, but do not
desire (or cannot afford) to "race" officially. The same performance
considerations affect both "official" racers and weekend warriors.


Lack of understanding? Sorry but these ARE toys. Just as my boats are
toys. They are not a necessity, and that is my word of choice. No
offense was intended, but I'll certainly make no apologies for its use.

If you want to define "toy" simply as something that is not
necessary, then I can accept that. The reason that I bristled at the
term is that some people differentiate a little more and consider a
"toy" as something not only not necessary, but frivolous or ridiculous
to the point of absurdity. As in the comparison between a brand new
Pentium 4 computer and a 486.


What constitutes "a bunch of noise" is usually a matter of
subjectivity and personal preference. Personally, my boating day would
not be complete without hearing the sweet sounds of many finely tuned
big blocks running at 4000 RPM as they pass by. Now these boats are
not overly loud in my opinion. They do not impair conversation nor do
they drown out the stereo.


That's odd, an unmuffled boat exhaust within fifty feet of me with that
exhaust aimed in my direction does in fact impair both my conversation and
stereo listening enjoyment.

How many boats pass by you at 50'? The boats I observe passing by are
at least 500 yards or more away. No boat should be running at speed
closer than 100 feet (by law in most places). The sound is also very
directional. You can usually see the boats approaching long before you
can hear them. Then, as they pass by, the sound increases
dramatically. As they move on, you can usually hear them as far as you
can see them.

Once again, if it's a quick arrival,
departure, or passer by, I can deal with it. If its someone who feels the
need to hear loud noises, then let them move near an AFB or NAS, rather
than annoy those around them who merely wish to relax in peace and quiet.

Again, you have to be specific. If you are talking about a sheltered
anchorage, or a marina, I'd agree with you. On the open water, you
shouldn't expect "peace and quiet".

And it's not the amount of noise, it's the type. Airport noises have
no redeeming value (At least none that I can rationalize). OTOH, I
like the sound of a finely tuned engine on both a car or a boat. Think
about the difference between listening to your favorite music in a
loud venue, and the same sound level with a form of music that you
can't stand. One will pump your blood, the other will make your skin
crawl.

As for ear splitting sound. Maybe maybe not. My criteria for annoyance
in this matter is obviously lower than yours, as I find it annoying long
before any physical damage to my hearing is done. While I can't speak
for everyone, for me it's often not just the noise, its the intent. If an
unmuffled boat idles by, I may not like it, but as you state, it will come
to pass. I have friendly acquaintances at a marina I frequent, two
couples, each with an offshore. They idle in and out quickly and at
reasonable times of day, no problem.

Some people just don't get it. If you have a boat with unmuffled thru
transoms with no diverter, then you have to be responsible enough to
understand that not everyone likes and/or appreciates the sound. This
feeling is also very time dependant.


Amen. And for that we appreciate those of you that at least make the
attempt of consideration. Unfortunately, I have seen all too many people
who as you say "don't get it", that is why I and others have a problem.

People need to understand that you have to get along with the other
guy, at least to some degree. If you **** off too many people, they
will band together to force you to comply. I'd rather have the ability
to enjoy the fine sound of a performance engine SOME of time, than not
at all.

Making the assumption that people who enjoy performance boats, are all
going though a mid-life crisis, need a "penis extension", or are
somehow just looking to show off, is being judgmental and stereotyping
in the worst way.


Your right, not everyone in your group deserves to be maligned. As I
stated, I have friendly acquaintances that do not fit this maligned
description of offshore powerboaters. However, I've see far more people
in these boats that exercise rude behavior that screams "Me, me, me.
**** you." These people help myself and others to form a general opinion
that is unfavorable. Don't blame me because alot of people I've come
across in your category of boating cannot exercise even the least bit of
common courtesy or common sense.

They say the same thing about Jet Skis. You only seem to notice the
rude ones, because their behavior calls your attention to it. The
considerate people don't get noticed because they blend in. It doesn't
take long to make the assumption that all people who enjoy "XYZ" sport
are idiots, simply because everyone that you've observed has been
acting like one.


I would agree right up until your quip about a person's ego. Once
again you are making a judgement. There are many technical reasons why
performance boats are loud. Considering that once you reach the 50 MPH
area, it takes roughly between 10 and 15 HP to gain each additional 1
MPH, every little bit of gain helps. Installing a free flowing exhaust
system (Including tuned headers or a better manifold), can net you up
to 30 more HP (Which means 2 more MPH). It would be great if every
boat had a "captain's call" exhaust diverter, but the truth is that
many don't (mine doesn't). As I get older, I find my tolerance for
noise to be less, which is why I shoved a set of baffles in my
exhausts. Yea, it trimmed a little off the top end, but I don't run
flat out all that much any more, and it makes the boat much more
friendly to everyone else. The last thing I want to do is make enemies
of fellow boaters.


You don't agree with my last statement about ego, fine. No, not every
boat has a diverter system. But maybe they should, and maybe they're use
should be mandatory at idle speeds in a port. That would end our
nitpicking of this topic real quick.
I could be wrong here, but it was my understanding that all new
performance boats were required to have this type of equipment.

I don't believe that exhaust diverters are required equipment.
Different states have different noise regulations. At some point, all
boats will require a muffler of some sort, whether or not it is
switchable.

Elaborate switchable exhaust systems (Like Corsa's Quick n Quiet) are
a fairly expensive add-on option. I'm sure that given the choice, many
high performance guys would rather spend that money on more
horsepower.

Ironically, exhaust diverters are actually illegal in the state of Pa.
The law was copied right out of the vehicle code, and was obviously
written to prevent people from taking a muffled thru hub exhaust and
switching it to a louder thru transom. But considering that many boats
are produced with only simple unmuffled thru transoms, the ability to
switch to a quieter system would be nice.


If so why
aren't these devices being used by their captains? How you you describe
someone who has this device, yet chooses to refrain from muffling their
exhause at idle speed in a port? You don't have to explain that "every
little bit helps", were all aware of that. But tell me, on Lake Erie,
which is almost NEVER flat enough to run even close to WOT for these types
of vessels, why does this person need an unmuffled exhaust to gain that
extra 30HP that they cannot possibly use at their top end?

I can't comment on the rationale that these guys use except to suggest
that perhaps they have no diverter to switch, and that's why you
always hear it.


If these things don't describe someone taking their ego out for exercise
then what do they say?

I'm not sure that "ego" is the right word. I don't enjoy the aspects
of performance boats for the "ego". Adrenaline rush, blood pumping
thrill, and overall sensory experience, yes but not ego. I couldn't
care less about what other people think of me one way or the other
(Unless, of course you sign my paycheck). I don't need a piece of
hardware to make friends. Of course that's just me.


And please don't argue the "performance for
performance's sake" aspect as if everyone in this boating category is so
dedicated and methodical about performance that they should be wearing
white lab coats, and jotting into notebooks.

When was the last time you saw a motorhead wearing a lab coat? Trust
me, it's like a religion. There was a time when I could tell the make
and type of engine just by listening to its unique sound. Lately,
they've come out with so many new engines that I can't keep up. I've
lost my edge as I get older

Frankly, I really don't
see that. While I'll concede there are people who have a genuine
interest, the guts, the skills, and the venue, for pushing the performance
envelope within this boating group, I do not think they comprise the
majority. I think its ego for most.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but I would suggest that
before condemning any activity, that you take the time to understand
it a little more than from casual observance.

Most of the guys I know are into the performance aspects. What
separates them is the amount of disposable income that they have to
spend on it. The guys with more money buy more improvements. Also some
guys are more mechanically inclined than others. Some do their own
wrenching, and enjoy doing the work. It's like therapy. Other guys
just open their wallets and let someone else build them their "toys".


How about the guy fifteen feet away, who is revving up each of engine to
"tune" it in from of his girlfriend.

Most women have no clue (or do they want to know) what a tuned up
engine is supposed to sound like, unless she's one of those rare
female gearheads. If it were me reving the engine, my wife would turn
to me and ask "Must you do that?"


Unfortuantely, i am a bad typist. What I was trying to convey what this
person was revving his engines for twenty minutes and not doing anything
useful.

That you knew about. I'm not making excuses here, but he might have
had some sort of problem (Noisy drive joints, or some other issue)
that he was trying to track down. Then again, he might have just been
an grade "A" A-hole.


It was merely to impress a woman who as you say did not have a
clue.

Conjecture.

Even if he was doing something useful, with an unmuffled exhaust
it might have been nice if he thought to warn his neighbors about what he
was trying to do and how long it might take so we could make the choice to
leave and come back later, rather than wondering how long we'll be subject
to "RPM scales"

In this society, courtesy has almost become extinct. Why should it
surprise you that some boaters carry this decline in morality to the
water?


How about the little dickhead fifty feet away who comes back for the bars
at 3am and feels the need to rev his engines for a few minutes to show
off.

Who's he showing off to at 3:00 AM?


For all I know, the Queen of England. At 3:00am does it matter?

You made the claim that he was "showing off". Since there was no one
around I was wondering who he was showing off to. I'm not saying that
what he was doing wasn't inconsiderate, but I question your conclusion
as to his reason. Maybe he was just drunk.....

I guess he wants to make sure the engine is thoroughly warmed up
before shoving off. At 5:30 AM even normal outboards or standard
inboards are loud. When I was a marina rat in 1982-84, I used to be
woken up regularly at that time when the gung-ho fishermen would fire
off toward that distant fishing hole. Yet those same guys had the
nerve to bitch when we cruised back into the marina at 2:30 in the
morning after a night of partying. And we didn't even have a
performance boat then.


High performance boat, fisherman, or sailboat. I have little respect for
someone who doesn't plan a quick arrival or departure during quiet times.
When you have a boat producing very loud exhaust noises this malignant
feeling increases. When that exhaust is two feet from my bunk, I jot down
his registration numbers and wish him good luck at ever seeing a dock
space open to him in this marina in the future.

If someone makes a habit of running at "off-times" then they really
need to take steps to minimize their noise. That's common courtesy.
There's no excuse for that. Paddle the damn thing out of the marina
before firing it up......

These three people alone are the reasons I would vote for tougher noise
laws within a mile from any shoreline.

I would prefer citing the individual offenders rather than passing
more broad restrictive laws which would affect many more people.

On a related note, have you ever tried talking to these offensive
people to let them know that their behavior bothers you? Believe it or
not, many people just let their irritation stew, and the offenders
never know that they are bothering people. In some cases, once they
realize that they do bother people, some of these guys will try to
minimize their offensive activities.


Your right, Dave, it is a shame. You also cite excellent examples that
bad behavior is by no means reserved for performance powerboaters. We
could just as easily be talking about another group, and I would have
stories to back my opinions up. You probably think I came into this
discussion and am leaving with a permanent bias against performance power
boaters, and you'd be at least half right. My experiences with alot of
them have been less than useful.

People tend to notice things that they don't like, or that irritate
them. For whatever reason those images burn into memory a little more
forcefully.

However, I would like to state that people like you, who can conduct a
reasonable conversation, and excerises courtesy towards other boaters,
goes a long way to help me stay a little more open minded, and judge the
person by their behavior and not just the boat. Even if that boat happens
to be louder than I like :^)

Thank you, take care, and happy boating!



Same to you.

Dave

On 6 Aug 2004 04:44:47 -0700, (basskisser) wrote:

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ...
"JGK" wrote in message
...

Its the people not the bots that are a
problem.

But GENERALLY speaking, certain kinds of people seem to get their hands on
certain kinds of toys, and aren't smart or considerate enough to use them
without driving others crazy. So, the two things (people and toys) can't
really be separated.

Around these parts, we call them "penis boats", because they are
nothing more than a phallic symbol for those lacking in that
department, UNLESS you actually race boats, different story all
together. But, if you just generally go to where the crowds are, and
make noise, etc., then yes, it's a substitute for a real penis. You
know who you are...


You really need to get a clue, since you obviously know nothing about
what you're talking about.

Dave

Dave Hall wrote:
On 6 Aug 2004 04:44:47 -0700, (basskisser) wrote:

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message ...
"JGK" wrote in message
...

Its the people not the bots that are a
problem.

But GENERALLY speaking, certain kinds of people seem to get their hands on
certain kinds of toys, and aren't smart or considerate enough to use them
without driving others crazy. So, the two things (people and toys) can't
really be separated.

Around these parts, we call them "penis boats", because they are
nothing more than a phallic symbol for those lacking in that
department, UNLESS you actually race boats, different story all
together. But, if you just generally go to where the crowds are, and
make noise, etc., then yes, it's a substitute for a real penis. You
know who you are...


You really need to get a clue, since you obviously know nothing about
what you're talking about.

Dave

Oh, puh-lease, Dave. Buy a clue about something. Owners of superloud
"pleasure boats" are desperately trying to demonstrate their "manhood"
to all, just like the owenrs of superloud cars with "through" exhausts,
or overage teeny-boppers with "throbbing" bass speakers and huge amps
powering their car stereos.

There's very little more annoying out on the Bay than trying to enjoy a
relazing afternoon while penis boats go flying by at 60-80mph (and
usually on their way to nowhere) with roaring, unmuffled exhausts and
some overly sunburned type A asshole at the helm, hoping everyone
notices. The usual comments are..."hmmm...any logs in the water out
there he might hit?"



--
"There's an old saying in Tennessee - I know it's in Texas, probably in
Tennessee - that says, fool me once, shame on - shame on you. Fool me -
you can't get fooled again." -George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept.
17, 2002