The point is: there are more then 4000 of the supra nourished herbivores
in the St. Johns River in the September Census. I do not have the
numbers for south FL and Tampa Bay. Perhaps you can provide them and add
the two together. At what point does the population become so large that
it becomes viable? When does a creature no longer need special
endangerment protection. Manatees are still a protected species, they
won't lose that status-ever! The current protection zones are working.
The population increase proves it. In Jacksonville and other cities on
the river, we don't need or want the draconian measures the F&G C are
planning. 25 mph in the channal? gimme a break. My cruiser barely planes
at 25. The sea cow doesn't even like the water in the channel because 1.
its too deep. The cow don't like water more then 8 or 9 feet deep. 2.
there is too much current for it to squat on the bottom. It would be
washed out to sea. 3 No food there. Fat cow don't go where there is no
food (period). Increasing the buffer zones from 1000 feet to 3000 feet
is just plain nuts.


Ask a homeowner in Ocala which is near silver springs, fl what they
think about the cute little monkeys running all over town and getting
into mischief. The primates have proflierated so much that their
colonies have been spotted as far north as Palatka. They were once
classed as an endangered species and now have to be hunted to keep the
population manageable. Should we allow the cow to go that way?

McManatees---Billions and billions spent. Lets waste more money.

CF

bb wrote:

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 14:43:15 GMT, dcg wrote:


Manatees do not swim in less than 3 feet of water and boaters quickly
learn where they are most likely to be: in warm, deep water with lots
of grass. We learn to avoid them.


I'll have to disagree with your assumpition that boaters will learn to
avoid them. When I'm fishing the Tampa Bay area grass flats I
regularly watch boat after boat plow through obvious shoal areas and
grass flats. The water can be glassy and clear, with the grass flats
and sand bars clearly visible, and yahoo's come one after another
plowing right through.

Maybe some boaters will learn to avoid the manatees, but certainly not
all.

bb

No earthquakes here...just lots of free wind.
Hoist the sail and save the manatee.

Capt. Frank Hopkins wrote in message
nk.net...
You have been subjected to too many earthquakes and have shaken baby
syndrome.

Don White wrote:

I agree. Ban 'motor boats' and the problem will be solved.

Wayne.B wrote in message
...

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:33:20 GMT, "Capt. Frank Hopkins"
wrote:

I for one resent being denied the use of large portions
of "my" river by a group of people that 1. doesn't live here. 2.
Doesn't
have a clue as to the true census of Manatees. 3. Are playing on
sympathy instead of fact. 4. Is founded by Jimmy Buffet who lives in
New
York.

================================================ ===

There probably are a few genuine manatee lovers out there but I've
become increasingly convinced that a lot of the manatee protection
groups are being clothed and fed by home owners who live on or near
the shore, and are fed up with being buzzed by jet skiis and the
straight pipe speed boat set. Both of these groups sound a lot more
acceptable to the neighbors when running at idle speed. Notice that
there is no exception in the manatee speed zone regs for jet boats
which arguably could do little to harm a manatee at any speed.

BTW, what exactly is "no wake". Sorry, but EVERY boat underway makes a wake.
This leaves the interpretation up to the local yokel cops, who are mostly
intent on generating revenue from boaters.

"dcg" wrote in message
...
The recent hysteria over manatees is also a problem for waterfront
homeowners because most waterfront homeowners are boaters too.

Waterfront home neighborhoods already have no wake zones. If
speedboats and jet skis violate those rules, the homeowners have a
right to be upset. Just like noisy cars and motorycyles zooming up
and down the street are annoying.

Manatee fanatics aren't rallying for more wake protection near fancy
houses, they want no speed zones *everywhere*. And manatees are
*everywhere* in Tampa Bay in the winter time. No shortage here at
all.

Manatees do not swim in less than 3 feet of water and boaters quickly
learn where they are most likely to be: in warm, deep water with lots
of grass. We learn to avoid them.

But the fanatics got their way in Tampa Bay and the result is this: at
the 4 foot deep contour near shore, 3 foot tall 8" diameter no wake
buoys are anchored every 100 ' or so. The buoys are meant to restrict
boaters to no wake within the marked area. Which may be 1/2 mile or
more from shore (shallow flats) and are encountered on the way to
mangrove shoreline fishing grounds.

So we're prevented from getting to the fishing spots in a reasonable
amount of time.

Here's the catch: there's little to no enforcement on Tampa Bay and
less maintenance of navigational aids - like these buoys. The result:
after a couple of years, these buoys are now coated with oysters which
have reduced their effective height above the waterline to about 6".
Which makes them almost impossible to see in some situations. That
makes them hazards to navigation.

$.02.


On Thu, 20 Nov 2003 22:00:25 -0500, Wayne.B
wrote:

On Fri, 21 Nov 2003 02:33:20 GMT, "Capt. Frank Hopkins"
wrote:
I for one resent being denied the use of large portions
of "my" river by a group of people that 1. doesn't live here. 2. Doesn't
have a clue as to the true census of Manatees. 3. Are playing on
sympathy instead of fact. 4. Is founded by Jimmy Buffet who lives in New
York.
================================================= ==

There probably are a few genuine manatee lovers out there but I've
become increasingly convinced that a lot of the manatee protection
groups are being clothed and fed by home owners who live on or near
the shore, and are fed up with being buzzed by jet skiis and the
straight pipe speed boat set. Both of these groups sound a lot more
acceptable to the neighbors when running at idle speed. Notice that
there is no exception in the manatee speed zone regs for jet boats
which arguably could do little to harm a manatee at any speed.

Capt. Frank Hopkins wrote:

The point is: there are more then 4000 of the supra nourished herbivores
in the St. Johns River in the September Census. I do not have the
numbers for south FL and Tampa Bay. Perhaps you can provide them and add
the two together. At what point does the population become so large that
it becomes viable? When does a creature no longer need special
endangerment protection. Manatees are still a protected species, they
won't lose that status-ever! The current protection zones are working.
The population increase proves it. In Jacksonville and other cities on
the river, we don't need or want the draconian measures the F&G C are
planning. 25 mph in the channal? gimme a break. My cruiser barely planes
at 25. The sea cow doesn't even like the water in the channel because 1.
its too deep. The cow don't like water more then 8 or 9 feet deep. 2.
there is too much current for it to squat on the bottom. It would be
washed out to sea. 3 No food there. Fat cow don't go where there is no
food (period). Increasing the buffer zones from 1000 feet to 3000 feet
is just plain nuts.



There's a lot of scientifically invalid claims in your post, Frank, and
a little silliness, too. I lived in the Jax-St. Augustine area for more
than five years, and on occasion would see manatees "out in the channel"
of the St. Johns River. I've also seen them doing quite well against the
currents at Mayport and St. Augustine inlets, and I've seen them under
the bridges at Green Cove Springs and Doctors' Lake.



--
Email sent to is never read.

BTW, what exactly is "no wake". Sorry, but EVERY boat underway makes a wake.
This leaves the interpretation up to the local yokel cops, who are mostly
intent on generating revenue from boaters.


You're right that every cop becomes the judge of whether or not your vessel is
creating a wake. It's impossible to haul the wake into court for evidence, so
it boils down to "He said vs. He said."

One standard that I have encountered seems to make a ton of sense: If the bow
wave is breaking, the boat is creating a wake.

A ripple is not a wake......unless the local cop has not been "awake" and needs
an easy ticket for the afternoon. :-)

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 04:56:49 GMT, "Capt. Frank Hopkins"
wrote:

The point is: there are more then 4000 of the supra nourished herbivores
in the St. Johns River in the September Census.

So, are you saying 4,000 is to many? How many do you think is a
reasonable number for a river system?

I do not have the
numbers for south FL and Tampa Bay. Perhaps you can provide them and add
the two together. At what point does the population become so large that
it becomes viable?

I have no idea how many are around the Tampa Bay area. I do know I
fish in and around TB on a regular basis and I always enjoy it when I
see them around.

Are you suggesting we should stop protecting them when they reach a
viable population?

When does a creature no longer need special
endangerment protection.

I'm guessing when we run out of fossil fuel and bring our own
population into some kind of control.

Manatees are still a protected species, they
won't lose that status-ever!

So are people. What's your beef with sharing the planet were both
stuck on?

The current protection zones are working.

IYO.

In Jacksonville and other cities on
the river, we don't need or want the draconian measures the F&G C are
planning.

You assume you speak for everyone in those cities. I'm sure you
don't. Certainly there are many people the prefer manatees over
boats.

My cruiser barely planes
at 25.

So?

The sea cow doesn't even like the water in the channel because 1.
its too deep. The cow don't like water more then 8 or 9 feet deep.

So how do they get from one shoal area to the next?

2.there is too much current for it to squat on the bottom. It would be
washed out to sea.

Yeah, ok, that must be why they are commonly found drowned offshore,
eh?

3 No food there. Fat cow don't go where there is no
food (period).

Ever? Not even to get to other feeding areas? Amazing concept.

Increasing the buffer zones from 1000 feet to 3000 feet
is just plain nuts.

Link?

Ask a homeowner in Ocala which is near silver springs, fl what they
think about the cute little monkeys running all over town and getting
into mischief.

And this is related to the manatee issue how?

McManatees---Billions and billions spent. Lets waste more money.

You show me how may billions we've wasted on manatees and I'll show
you how much we've wasted on Iraq.

I just don't mind modifying my actions just a little bit so another
animal can live and survive. Maybe that's where we're different.
bb

"Don White" wrote in message ...

No earthquakes here.

Nor manatees, nor even the slightest clue about the real situation,
either.

...just lots of free wind.

As you've demonstrated.

Btw are you canucks still cutting down all those pine forests and
selling them here in the US? I think we are going to have to put real
high tariffs on you for that notorious and shameful behavior.

Save the Canadian Pine Trees!

Hoist the sail and save the manatee.

I bet you feel so much better about yourself now, don't you?

Well, see the link below.

http://www.standing-watch.org/

Now, so do I.
--
SJM

All shallow water areas Harry. Dr. lake and the other areas you
mentioned are already manatee zones. As far as a little silliness, I
hope they are as silly "new zone" laws. Such torts will virtually kill
boating in mainstream Florida waterways.

I have lived and boated here most of my life, and have rarely, like
maybe twice, seen a cow in the channal of the river. They don't like
heavy current, though the will swim in it if they have to. When
transiting the downtown jax area cows hug the shore. When in the broad
water south of the base and into orange park and greencove, they stay in
the shallows. I have seen them scratching their back on the pilings of
the Shand's bridge, in 6 feet of water, and the channal is only 12-13
feet deep there. What the locals are ****ed about is the increase of
buffer zones from between 100 and 1500 feet depending on the area to 300
feet everywhere, AND a speed limit river wide of 25 MPH in the channal
which is 80 feet. There will be no wake zones everywhere else. This
includes the ICW and Matanzas, Halifax, and Indian River which will
become entirely a no wake zone because they are less then 6000' wide.

The way the law is written, it is up to the local water-cop to determine
if you are in violation. Quote: "White water showing at either bow or
stern." A O'Day 23' sailboat, under sail, will produce white water at
the bow at 3 to 4 Kts. Heavier boats may not be able to go slow enough
to maintain headway without producing whitewater. Mine certainly won't
If I am maintaining 6 mph againsn't a 6 mph current, I am motionless as
far as land is concerned, But I am tossing a hell of a bow wave and
churning plenty of whitewater and wake at the stern. But, would be
breaking the law as written.

Our (We The People Who Live Here) contention is, The existent zones are
working to protect the cow. We don't want or need further federal laws
to protect them, nor, do we want to be taxed or use existing tax funds
to maintain a bunch of new "manatee zone" signs. The estimate is 12,000+
will be needed state wide.

If you still lived here, you would be as angry as the rest of us.

Capt. Frank

Harry Krause wrote:
Capt. Frank Hopkins wrote:


The point is: there are more then 4000 of the supra nourished herbivores
in the St. Johns River in the September Census. I do not have the
numbers for south FL and Tampa Bay. Perhaps you can provide them and add
the two together. At what point does the population become so large that
it becomes viable? When does a creature no longer need special
endangerment protection. Manatees are still a protected species, they
won't lose that status-ever! The current protection zones are working.
The population increase proves it. In Jacksonville and other cities on
the river, we don't need or want the draconian measures the F&G C are
planning. 25 mph in the channal? gimme a break. My cruiser barely planes
at 25. The sea cow doesn't even like the water in the channel because 1.
its too deep. The cow don't like water more then 8 or 9 feet deep. 2.
there is too much current for it to squat on the bottom. It would be
washed out to sea. 3 No food there. Fat cow don't go where there is no
food (period). Increasing the buffer zones from 1000 feet to 3000 feet
is just plain nuts.




There's a lot of scientifically invalid claims in your post, Frank, and
a little silliness, too. I lived in the Jax-St. Augustine area for more
than five years, and on occasion would see manatees "out in the channel"
of the St. Johns River. I've also seen them doing quite well against the
currents at Mayport and St. Augustine inlets, and I've seen them under
the bridges at Green Cove Springs and Doctors' Lake.

Hey Chuck,
Yes, that is the biggest of the problems. When it comes down to "cop
said you said" you will always lose in hick county. They want that
$500.00 fine!

Capt. Frank

Gould 0738 wrote:

BTW, what exactly is "no wake". Sorry, but EVERY boat underway makes a wake.
This leaves the interpretation up to the local yokel cops, who are mostly
intent on generating revenue from boaters.



You're right that every cop becomes the judge of whether or not your vessel is
creating a wake. It's impossible to haul the wake into court for evidence, so
it boils down to "He said vs. He said."

One standard that I have encountered seems to make a ton of sense: If the bow
wave is breaking, the boat is creating a wake.

A ripple is not a wake......unless the local cop has not been "awake" and needs
an easy ticket for the afternoon. :-)

Scott McFadden wrote in message
snip...
Nor manatees, nor even the slightest clue about the real situation,
either.
..just lots of free wind.
As you've demonstrated.

Ok...let me see...
certain group of beligerent 'good ole boys' demand right to race around in
overpowered motorboats anywhere they
please, regardless of damage or irritation caused to any other livng
creature that may share same waterways.
....close???

Btw are you canucks still cutting down all those pine forests and
selling them here in the US? I think we are going to have to put real
high tariffs on you for that notorious and shameful behavior.
Save the Canadian Pine Trees!

GeorgeW has already beaten you to it.
Besides, the forests in my province are mostly spruce and fir. Not nearly
enough pine.

Hoist the sail and save the manatee.