On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 17:45:03 GMT, "Don White"
wrote:

My home port is the 2nd largest natural harbour in the world and we have a
speed limit.
I don't know what his problem is.
If he had to survive something like the Halifax Explosion, he might be more
inclined to accept responsibility for reckless actions. see
http://archives.cbc.ca/300c.asp?id=1-70-971

Interesting link, thanks.

bb

"Don White" wrote in message ...

Ok...let me see...
certain group of beligerent 'good ole boys' demand right to race around in
overpowered motorboats anywhere they
please, regardless of damage or irritation caused to any other livng
creature that may share same waterways.
...close???

Your insulting and all too common stereotypical "characterizations"
are totally inaccurate.

Futhermore, you being in Canada, are also irrelevant to the debate, as
there are no manatees in Canada. So, it is rather difficult, if not
impossible, for you have any current knowledge of the real situation
here in Fla, what-so-ever.

But, that has never stopped well intentioned "crusaders", like you,
has it?

Don, if you want to continue to rely upon "propanganda" then, I have
only two words of advice for you:

Join SMC.

I'm a member of "Standing Watch".

http://www.standing-watch.org/

We are just begining to see who can do what.

Btw are you canucks still cutting down all those pine forests and
selling them here in the US? I think we are going to have to put real
high tariffs on you for that notorious and shameful behavior.
Save the Canadian Pine Trees!

GeorgeW has already beaten you to it.
Besides, the forests in my province are mostly spruce and fir. Not nearly
enough pine.

Good, then you won't be impacted when all the Canadian paper mills
shut down.
--
SJM

You may have already seen this more up to date link...
http://www.cbc.ca/halifaxexplosion/he2_ruins/


bb wrote in message
...


Interesting link, thanks.

bb

Harry Krause wrote in message ...

The *fact* of the matter is, you're simply spreading boater propaganda
here, regarding manatees, rather than posting any sort of acceptable
science.

You're entitled to do that, of course,

Just what is it that you can provide?

Let me guess:

Anecdotal observations from a part-time, carpet bagger?

The fact is that there is no accurate census on manatees now. There are
guesses, that is all. I've read some of the reports that detailed some
of the census techniques, and these are laughable, at best.

I agree.

As someone with a background in aerial photogrammetry I can say that
the FFWCC "surveys" are about as "accurate" as a blind-folded man
throwing a dart at a dart board. If the FFWCC wants to go into any
kind of judicial or administrative hearings based upon their absurd
"surveys" I can demolish them, in short order.

So, there has never been any "evidence" that the manatee is (was)
going "extinct" or, that their population is (was) even declining.

But, as we have seen, it is now oh so "fashionable" to be an STM'er.
It makes folks, who have never and probably will never see a manatee,
"feel" oh so good about themselves. "Look at me, I love the manatee"

I understand you can even get yourself a STM bumper sticker so you can
show other folks how good you "feel" about yourself.

There's more at play here than manatees, of course. There's the issue of
high boat speeds, enormous boat wakes, careless boater behavior, driving
a boat while under the influence - these are all issues, along with
protecting manatees - that play into efforts to control the speed at
which boats are operated in the more protected Florida waters.

Harry, things are getting so bad here in the summer-time I rarely go
boating on weekends during that time of year. When I do it's a early
start and things are all wrapped up by noon-time.

The idiots and drunks sleep late on weekends, thank God.

That said, using the "manatee" is disingenuous, at best, as a "cover"
for other totally unrelated problems.

You want some less restrictive regs that "protect" manatees? Then work
harder to prosecute irresponsible boaters.

No, we are going after STM, as they are FOS.

For quite awile, no one wanted to look like the "bad guy" and oppose
protections for the manatee. That has changed. The "bad guys" (which
I'm a proud member of) have had enough and, are going to fight back.
--
SJM
http://www.standing-watch.org/

Scott McFadden wrote:

Harry Krause wrote in message ...

The *fact* of the matter is, you're simply spreading boater propaganda
here, regarding manatees, rather than posting any sort of acceptable
science.

You're entitled to do that, of course,

Just what is it that you can provide?

Let me guess:

Anecdotal observations from a part-time, carpet bagger?

Oh? You have some scientific data regarding manatee populations to share?




The fact is that there is no accurate census on manatees now. There are
guesses, that is all. I've read some of the reports that detailed some
of the census techniques, and these are laughable, at best.

I agree.

There's more at play here than manatees, of course. There's the issue of
high boat speeds, enormous boat wakes, careless boater behavior, driving
a boat while under the influence - these are all issues, along with
protecting manatees - that play into efforts to control the speed at
which boats are operated in the more protected Florida waters.

Harry, things are getting so bad here in the summer-time I rarely go
boating on weekends during that time of year. When I do it's a early
start and things are all wrapped up by noon-time.

The idiots and drunks sleep late on weekends, thank God.

That said, using the "manatee" is disingenuous, at best, as a "cover"
for other totally unrelated problems.

Partially, at least.



You want some less restrictive regs that "protect" manatees? Then work
harder to prosecute irresponsible boaters.


Thanks to the jackass in the White House, there's little money for
states to do that kind of work.

We seem to be in pretty close agreement here, eh?

--
Email sent to is never read.

Just assumed you knew very littleWally.

WaIIy wrote in message
...


Have you ever noticed how little we comment on Canada?

Ever wonder why/

Don White wrote:

Just assumed you knew very littleWally.

WaIIy wrote in message
...


Have you ever noticed how little we comment on Canada?

Ever wonder why/

Wally and his crowd suffer from severe xenophobia.






--
Email sent to is never read.

Hello Harry,

The whole point of the post went right past you.

It must have been a while since you live on the ICW in Auggie. The whole
area, ICW from Palm Valley south to Halifax, and Matanzas Inlet, has
been an East Indian Manatee Protection Zone for several years now. Don't
even think of throwing a wake through there. The little green men will
get you.

The point of the post and thread is: The current zones are effective.
The big increase in East Indian Manatee population proves it. Locals
don't want and cows don't need the new ones.

As poor a science as an aircraft-counted census is, it still shows the
visible population has climbed from 342 in Sept. 1988 to 4476 in the
Sept 03 census.
The census is Funded by St. Johns River Water Management District, and
reflects only sea cows counted in the St. Johns River. It does not take
into account populations state wide.

FACT: The "new" zones have not had any recorded East Indian Manatee
deaths. Ever.

The way the law is written. The "25 MPH speed limits in channels" are
relative to what? Landspeed water speed or tide speed? A sentence in
the second subparagraph, "White water shown at bow or stern" gives law
enforcement far too much "judgment call". Hitting most waves will make
whitewater, so will a sailboat at 5 knots. The law must be more
specific. ONLY a court of law has the right to determine guilt. There is
no court jurisdiction over the specific tort. Therefore, the policeman
is now accuser, judge and jury. Im sorry Harry, I have a little problem
with circumventing our constitution so casually.

The East Indian Manatee population has rebounded to the point where it
should be removed from the endangered status, and placed on the
threatened status roster. You will also notice I refer to the sea cow as
"East Indian Manatee". It is not indigenous to the United States.

By the way, I like sea cows too. Have been on 3 cow rescues with my
USCG-A pals, and would gladly report some jerk operating about in a
dangerous manner. Please note the majority of cow-in-distress calls come
in from concerned boaters.


Capt. Frank

Harry Krause wrote:
Capt. Frank Hopkins wrote:


You got that right NYOB. And, I do have a branch of my charter business
in St. Pete. But plan to retire to Astor.

I couldn't agree more. I wonder if DW and BB have a true clue. Perhaps
someday they can afford to vacation for an extended stay in Fl, and get
a glimmer of the true picture. I don't think either of them have a clue.
Now let's see if we can educate the poor snow birds.

Clues for the Canucks



The *fact* of the matter is, you're simply spreading boater propaganda
here, regarding manatees, rather than posting any sort of acceptable
science.

You're entitled to do that, of course,

The fact is that there is no accurate census on manatees now. There are
guesses, that is all. I've read some of the reports that detailed some
of the census techniques, and these are laughable, at best.

Your posts on manatee behavior are little more than a regurgitation of
everything every boating group in Florida has posted in defense of
higher boat speeds. I'm a part-time Floridian, and I'm aware of some
aspects of manatee population and behavior. My observations lead me to
different conclusions than much of what you've posted.

There's more at play here than manatees, of course. There's the issue of
high boat speeds, enormous boat wakes, careless boater behavior, driving
a boat while under the influence - these are all issues, along with
protecting manatees - that play into efforts to control the speed at
which boats are operated in the more protected Florida waters.

I used to live along the ICW, between the new bridge just north of St.
Augustine and the bend that turns towards the little airport basin. I'm
sure you are familiar with the general area. I filed many a complaint
about reckless boaters, boaters violating the no-wake zones and against
boaters, especially an airboater in the neighborhood, who violated noise
regulations. We also had some manatees in the area, very friendly ones,
who liked to patrol between where we were and the edge of Salt Run at
the S.A. inlet. Their presence added more to the general atmosphere of
the place than any overstuffed cruisers wallowing by, tossing up 8-foot
wakes.

You want some less restrictive regs that "protect" manatees? Then work
harder to prosecute irresponsible boaters.

BB,
I have a real problem taking you seriously. You tried to hide your
identity behind a fake IP, Yet nbnet.nb.ca is part of your news header.

Whois:

OrgName: Aliant Telecom
OrgID: ALIANT
Address: 1 Brunswick Square
Address: BS6
City: Saint John
StateProv: NB
PostalCode: E2L-4K2
Country: CANADA

NetRange: 207.179.128.0 - 207.179.191.255
CIDR: 207.179.128.0/18
NetName: ALIANT-TEL-207-179
NetHandle: NET-207-179-128-0-1
Parent: NET-207-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Allocation
NameServer: OPAL.NBNET.NB.CA
NameServer: ONYX.NBNET.NB.CA

bb wrote:

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 15:04:22 GMT, "Capt. Frank Hopkins"
wrote:


I couldn't agree more. I wonder if DW and BB have a true clue. Perhaps
someday they can afford to vacation for an extended stay in Fl, and get
a glimmer of the true picture. I don't think either of them have a clue.


I've lived in the Tampa Bay area since 1957, Frank. I make my living
on the water, and have for the last 25 years. I think I've got a
pretty good first hand view of the situation.

For the most part, my experience has been anyone, non-military, who
calls themselves "captain", is a joke. You've done your part to
reinforce that opinion.

bb

On Tue, 25 Nov 2003 05:23:53 GMT, "Capt. Frank Hopkins"
wrote:

BB,
I have a real problem taking you seriously. You tried to hide your
identity behind a fake IP, Yet nbnet.nb.ca is part of your news header.

Whois:

OrgName: Aliant Telecom
OrgID: ALIANT
Address: 1 Brunswick Square
Address: BS6
City: Saint John
StateProv: NB
PostalCode: E2L-4K2
Country: CANADA

NetRange: 207.179.128.0 - 207.179.191.255
CIDR: 207.179.128.0/18
NetName: ALIANT-TEL-207-179
NetHandle: NET-207-179-128-0-1
Parent: NET-207-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Allocation
NameServer: OPAL.NBNET.NB.CA
NameServer: ONYX.NBNET.NB.CA

I don't know what you're talking about Frank, but then again, neither
do you.

bb