K,
I have to disagree with your assessment that Bill Grannis's post is
spam. Bill is entitled to his opinion as are you. Bill has many times in
the past provided valuable information to the group and I'd like to take
this moment to thank him for his participation.
Paul

"K Smith" wrote in message
...
Billgran wrote:
"Don White" wrote in message
...

Try here...might help.....
http://www.smalloutboards.com/4Stroke.htm




It is a nice comparison that is for small outboards but is out of date
as
it does not include DFI outboards. Every 2-stroke "CON" on the site does
not
pertain to the new Evinrude E-TECs They also have less emissions,
quicker
starts, and less maintenance than equivalent 4-strokes.

On small 4-strokes the carbs gum up quicker due to their smaller jets
and
passageways. Also carbureted 4 strokes are sometimes harder to start,
and
have to be warmed up foe quite a while before they will idle and
accelerate
smoothly, EFI models do not have that drawback. You have to use the fast
idle lever for warm-up and carb 4-strokes engines do not meet the
Caliornia
3-star emission rating. Overheating problems on 4-strokes can result in
scored pistons that allow oil burning and a blue smokey exhaust, unless
the
engine is expensively rebuilt.

Bill Grannis
service manager



Again be very careful this is an ad pure & simple. This person has
always spammed here & seems is about to start again.

The best advice is don't buy Evinrude at all. Or if you're actually
interested wait some years, at least 5, to see if their latest consumer
funded experiments work or fail again as they did with Ficht.

K

Billgran wrote:
Hi Karen,

I see you are off your medication again, You really must get some
professional help about those ( FICHT, OMC, VRO - take your pick )
delusions.. Speaking of spruikers and spammers, you are the queen, just look
at the number of lines of text in your signature, and the hate, personal
attacks, name calling, and all the misinformation that you try to
disseminate on this newsgroup.

Hi Bill,

Well I hang in here. Yep the sig file is to make sure people know what
a liar Harry is. But ....

Below is our opinion of "E-tech" as always it's just our "opinion", but
given we've been right every single time in the past about Ficht I have
no reason to lack confidence in the blokes this time:-)

So I guess you still say Ficht, OMC & VRO are good??? sad really sad,
the trouble is you can have your "toe the Co" sales line views but when
you start using them as fact to make sales to unsuspecting NGers that is
spam & spam is what you've always delivered here. As for "running away"
of course you did!!! even at the height of the ficht failures you a
Florida dealer were denying you'd even seen a failed ficht, but a few
weeks before they went bankrupt you ran away, like all the other
spamming NG OMC dealers. I can't believe you're trying that JD powers
rating crap again, honestly Bill do you believe this spruik or are you
just such a hardened seller you keep at it till the funnels go under???


I suspect Harry the lying abuser, won't help you this time he's been
seen for what he isn't now.

As for your latest marketing line, a change of name, I was hoping not
to go through this again but seeing you keep at it OK:-) I know you know
but some of those you're trying to deceive with your spam might not.
It's just more of the same, experimenting with consumers' money.

(i) You've dropped the Ficht name & on the lower powered engines you now
call them "E-Tech" BUT it's basically the same old same old, also in the
larger HP you haven't rearranged the deck chairs yet but you've STILL
STOPPED CALLING THEM FICHT!!!.

Anyway as always I'm happy to be reviewed & of course happy to explain
why we say what we say; so here we go again;

(i) You're still trying to run lean mixtures at lower revs & lean
mixtures at "any" sort of power lead to piston heat buildup & detonation
when the engine is quickly returned to normal mixtures with increased power.

(ii) The answers OMC & the followers ever since keep coming up with is
the charge somehow stays "stratified" (in layers of normal mixture
around the plug & no fuel elsewhere) within the chamber. This is bunkum
of course just as it was when Chrysler & then Honda tried it in car
engines of the 70s.

(iii) The Ficht (or e-tech if you're that gullible) uses way too low an
injection pressure via a combined impact pump/injector, so the fuel
isn't properly atomised when if gets into the combustion chamber, again
aggravating an already dangerous lean mixture detonation risk.

(iv) The engine has no proper lubrication, they inject tiny amounts of
oil (which they try to tell you is a bonus!!) because if they inject
enough to properly protect the engine it builds up & gets baked behind
the overly hot rings, which means they get even hotter = detonation.

So the deceptively marketed E-tech is just more from the Ficht crowd,
with a few modifications, as before they want you to pay while you
experiment for them, if they work great if they don't they'll blame you
as they tried with VRO & Ficht.

The modifications are just moving deck chairs around & in no manner
deal with the root cause of the Ficht failures.

(a) They've cut the oil back even further!!!! They spruik to you this
is a good thing!!! but the real reason is they hope it'll stop carbon
sticking the rings & leading to detonation. The real reason the oil gets
baked behind the rings in Ficht is that the piston gets overly hot when
running on poorly atomised very very lean mixtures. The "stratified"
claim is BS pure & simple.

(b) They've changed the electronics, woo hoo, they do this every second
Wednesday & usually after you've bought from them!!! The problems were &
remain related to poorly atomised (too low a pressure from a failed
design of impact injector design) & running lean mixtures.

(c) As if to confirm our original ficht assessment in 98 was correct
it's only now they have tried to make the pistons out of stronger more
heat resistant alloys. This again shows just how totally experimental
this latest attempt is & why it will fail as ficht did. When they got
the loads of blown Ficht powerheads back they mostly would have found
damaged pistons some with baked deposits behind the rings, so being OMC
or by now ex OMC idiots they assumed the pistons were the problem, even
blamed the suppliers. The melted &/or damaged pistons would have been
just the symptom & the outcome of running engines lean, ever worse
poorly atomised & lean NOT the casue of the failures.

(d) The reason the pistons are failing is because at lower revs these
engines are very very lean & because the injection pressure is a joke
also, the fuel is poorly atomised. A low revs on this lean fuel the burn
is very abnormal, sometimes OK but mostly at the very least it's a very
slow burn (lean means flame front can't be relied upon to get to the end
gases quickly).

(e) This slow burn means the pistons get hot (they've now confirmed by
using "special" alloys???) however long before ordinary aluminium even
looks like getting too hot (1100 degs) petrol just self ignites &
explodes violently = detonation

(f) At low power the mixtures are so lean they can't even support
detonation so the damage isn't done when the engine is lean it's done
when the user throttles up after a long run at low revs, lean mixture
(long no wake zones etc) Now the chamber & particularly the piston is
extremely hot, over a small rev range the mixture is increased to
"normal" & detonation sets in, piston temps very quickly (seconds not
minutes) now go sky high = detonation & the motor fails.

(g) ALL the ficht troubles will be there again & making the pistons
stronger won't help, just as it didn't in Ficht (gees louise then the
injectors started to get forced out of the heads!!)

The new injector nozzles are just carbon on the non existent valves &
more BS

In the opinions here the really amasing thing is that they get away
with this, obviously Bomb woke up & unloaded it to the "family" but how
many people are going to get taken in by this crap. Does anyone actually
believe that if there was suddenly after what 100 yrs?? now a way to run
IC petrol engines as lean as 40-1 that GM, Ford, Daimler, the Japanese,
the Europeans wouldn't ALL be in on it????

Give it up Bill this is making your VRO stories look almost sane.


K


Here's some of Harry's lies for you, just to bring back old memories:-)



I'm doing my part to ease unemployment. I'm hiring another writer
for my


staff. Will be putting the ad on MONSTER.COM and in the Wash Post.


I need more staff because 2004 is a major election year and business
booked to date indicates we'll be drowning in work. We need to hire a
production coordinator, too. It has very little to do with the state of
the economy, other than using it as reason to defeat Republicrap
candidates.


I'm doing my part to ease unemployment. I'm hiring another writer
for my

staff. Will be putting the ad on MONSTER.COM and in the Wash Post.




We have first-class benefits, including a top-of-the-line health
insurance plan, a non-contributory defined-benefit pension plan, a 401k,
and a life insurance policy equal to annual salary. We contribute a
share of profits to the 401k on behalf of the employee. Our employees
pay $4.50 for generic prescriptions and $8.00 for non-generics, but
that's going up next year to $10 and $15. New employees get two weeks
vacation the first year, and that goes to three weeks the third year. In
addition, we have 12 paid holidays and we shut down from noon on
Christmas eve to the day after New Year's Day. We also provide 20 days
of paid sick leave a year. And we have an outside company administering
pre-tax flexible bennies for our employees.
Our fringe benefit package follows the trade union model, except, of
course, for the profit contributions to 401k's. Trade unions are
not-for-profit enterprises.
How do these compare to the bennies at your shop?

Paid? Every year? I call "bull****". With 3 weeks vacation, 12 paid
holidays, and 20 paid sick days that's 47 *paid* days off every year.
Are
they hourly employees? For a "small business", that's the road to
bankruptcy.

Boy...and you had me going there for a minute.

Not quite so simple, though you are trying hard to make it so. Our
business is up because we're on the cusp of an election year. Our
business always goes up in a major election year.
You could say we're going to be doing very well in 2004 because Bush is
such a total failure.


The 20 paid sick days aren't part of the "paid" days off unless those
days are used. None of our people abuses sick leave. In fact, no one as
yet has even come close to using 20 sick days in one year. They're there
in case they're needed.


Oh, I forgot. We also provide everyone with LTD.

The company provides an insurance plan that pays 50% of an employe's
salary for Long Term Disability. Employes have the option of purchasing
an additional 16.66%, bringing their total to 66.66%. The basic benefit
maximum is $4,000 per month. With the buy up, the limit is increased to
$10,000 per month.



Here's just some of his prior lies (in his own words pasted);

I sold off nearly $3,000,000 in new motors and boats, depressing
the new boat
industry in southern Connecticut for an entire season. Everything was
sold...every
cotter pin, every quart of oil, 30 days after I started. For near
full-retail, too.


He had just under $1,000,000 on floor plan with a
syndicate of banks led by National Shawmut of Boston. He had been a
solid customer of that back for more than 20 years and they gave him
great rates.



As far as your other complaints, well, almost every president in
my memory,
and I *remember* Truman, Eisenhower (who cheated on his wife),
Kennedy,
Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and Bush, lied and
participated in
deceit to one degree or another, and on issues far more important
than who
was giving them blow jobs.

Good lord. I met *every* president in the damned group except
Bush, and I
worked once for his father.



My father used to pray that the north shore of LI Sound would be
hit by
a mild hurricane. No
one injured, no on-shore property damaged, but lots of boats sunk.
Preferably early in July.


We had the Hatteras for two years. Last year, out of the cold
clear, a
broker approached me with an offer to buy. Our continued Florida
lifestyle was somewhat up in the air, because the two breadwinners
hereabouts were about to be offered long-term but temporary
assignments
they could not refuse in the Washington, D.C., area. So, after being
romanced a little, we sold the Hatt for almost precisely what we paid
for it. Not bad, after two full years of use. And I mean full
years. So,
we didn't "make" any money off the Hatt, but we didn't lose any,
either.
The proceeds were prudently invested.

The PWC was won as
a prize in a raffle.



Never mind that. Why does he have a Bilgeliner in front of his
office?
Is it a display of "Boating Don'ts?"
Yeah, when we were in the boat biz, my father always had one or two







"around the back" that he was forced to take in trade. These were
sold
as "as is, where is." He made sure the engine would start and run.
Beyond that, it was up to the prospective buyer to decide if he
wanted
it. They moved off the lot pretty quickly, partially because my dad's
main store was on a highly trafficked commercial route with lots of
manufacturing and machining and aerospace plants near by. In
those days,
workers at these places could fix anything.


Actually, Dipper, I don't think my father ever saw a Bayliner.
But he still
called bumpers bumpers.
--



Bayliner wined and dined my father a half dozen times to
entice him
into becoming its dealer. His operation was the largest small boat
dealership in its area of New England, and for 30 years, he was the
*exclusive* Evinrude dealer in a densely populated coastal county. He
also handled Mercuries. He never liked Bayliners, and referred to
them
as "jerry-built."


From 1947 until he died, he sold more than 500 outboard motors a
year from his stores, accounting for a reasonably high percentage
of *all*
outboards sold in his home state for those years.


This is a killer. My father was in the boat business dating back to
right after
the Big War. When he died and I was looking through his
warehouse, I found
wrapped in a nuclear fall-out bag (no kidding), a brand-new 1949
Evinrude 8015
50 hp outboard. The motor was a gift to my father from Evinrude for
winning some
outboard stock utility or hydroplane race.

I gave the motor to a friend of my dad's, who worked at the shop
as head
mechanic. I don't believe he ever used it and I'm sure it is still
brand-new. I
have no idea who might own it now.



He also built
boats, and I worked on a few, both wood, glass covered wood and
all fiberglass. After he died, however, we sold the biz and I've
just been an occasional boat owner.


Besides, I worked off and on in the
boat business and inherited it when he died. So, as I said, I'm
knee-deep in boat heritage.


Oh,
and I had some friends who died in the service, too, but it
wasn't for
what they believed in. They were drafted, shipped to Vietnam and came
back in body bags.


During the war, he turned out experimental brass shell casings
for the
Army and hopped up outboards for the Navy, which wanted to use
them on
smaller
landing craft. I had photos at one time of my father with Ole
Evinrude
himself.
My mother knew one of Evinrude's wives...she was a minor movie
star or
singer...I forgot which. Maybe both.



Have you ever sailed from San Francisco to Hawaii? I have.
Have you ever rounded Cape Horn? I have, twice.
Have you ever transited the Panama Canal? I have.
Have you owned more than 20 boats in your lifetime? I have.
Have you ever sailed large boats competitively? I have.
Have you ever been hundreds of miles from land in a powerboat
under your
command? I have.


My father and his chief mechanic once crossed the Atlantic in
winter in
a 22'
boat powered by twin outboards. Yes, it is possible, even the
fuel. Got a
"fireboat" welcome in NYC.




Here are some:

Hatteras 43' sportfish
Swan 41' racing/cruising sloop
Morgan 33
O'Day 30
Cruisers, Inc., Mackinac 22
Century Coronado
Bill Luders 16, as sweet a sailboat as ever caught a breeze.
Century 19' wood lapstrake with side wheel steering
Cruisers, Inc. 18' and 16' wood lapstrakes
Wolverines. Molded plywood. Gorgeous. Several. 14,15,17 footers
with various
Evinrudes
Lighting class sailboat
Botved Coronet with twin 50 hp Evinrudes. Interesting boat.
Aristocraft (a piece of junk...13', fast, held together with spit)
Alcort Sunfish
Ancarrow Marine Aquiflyer. 22' footer with two Caddy Crusaders.
Guaranteed 60
mph. In the late 1950's.
Skimmar brand skiff
Arkansas Traveler fiberglass bowrider (I think it was a bowrider)
Dyer Dhow
Su-Mark round bilge runabout, fiberglass
Penn Yan runabouts. Wood.
Old Town wood and canvas canoe
Old Town sailing canoe...different than above canoe



Sometime in the early 1960s, I was driving back from Ft. Leonard
Wood to
Kansas City in a nice old MGA I owned at the time. About halfway
home it
started raining heavily, I turned on the wipers, and EVERY SINGLE
electrical accessory and light in the car flashed on, there was a
large
popping sound and it all blew out at once. And the car caught fire. I
pulled over to the side of the road, watched the fire, removed my
license plate and hitched on home. For all I know, that old MGA
is still
there.

Sure was a pretty little car.


Puh-lease, Karen. You've not seen nor have I ever posted one
example of
my professional writings on building structure and the effects on
it of
hurricane-force winds and seismic activity. I haven't done any of
these
in at least 10 year, but at the time I was field researching,
photographing and writing these reports, they were quite accurate,
topical and well-received by their intended audiences.


A small fleet of Polar skiffs were purchased by an inshore bait,
tackle

and boat rental business on the ICW in NE Florida. These boats
were not
used on open waters. Within 90 days, cracks developed in the
liners that
also served as the deck over the flotation in the bottom of the
hulls. A
guide I know, one whose boats and engines are supplied to him by
manufacturers, also had a Polar skiff go bad on him for the same
reasons
-liner and then hull fractures.







Harry has claimed to have a 20 yrs his junior beautiful wife, he
even put a fake pic of a beautiful woman on a website once claiming it
was his "young bride", he may have a wife, although I doubt it, we don't
like nor tolerate misogynists for long.

Needless to say he's made up many "dramatic" over the top
stories over the years about this lie to feed his ego & pretend he's the
centre of attention, but as with his boat claims & other crap, there's
never once been even a shred of independently verifiable material.

After he stalked Madcow in real life, which was most
frightening, I do suspect he's very very dangerous & that this "bride"
story is his delusional appropriation of his, probably court ordered,
treating psychotherapist as "wife" (it seems he was under lock & key for
what?? over a year??? a sexual deviant maybe??), have a read of just a
small part of his BS & make up your own mind, it's all about free choice:-)


1. She *is* my bride. There are no rules that determine the end of
"bride-hood." If I want to refer to her as my bride, I may.

2. As a professional writer, I know the rules of language and am
entitled to
break them in exercise of my license.

3. I doubt many married women would object to their husbands lovingly
referring to them as brides. The connotations are pleasant.

4. She's 20 years younger than I am.



Naw. What happened was that I handled a couple of "political"
consulting
jobs funded out of the DC area to help a few candidates and defeat a
couple of ballot issues. Through no fault of mine, we won each of the
races, so some of the deep pockets types based in the DC area think I
actually *know something* about the process. I was offered a contract
that requires my presence in DC quite frequently. My bride also was
offered a job up here that represented a significant professional
career
move. So, we're "up here" much of the time and "down there" the rest of
it, except when we're "somewhere else." I've been back to Jax (well,
really south of Jax) five times since coming "up here" late last summer
and my bride just returned from a business trip there.

I swear this is true.


Here's a funny. My bride had to fly out to San Diego Wednesday and
hitched a ride on her company's corporate jet. They landed in Salina,
Kansas, which is due north of Wichita and Skippy's suburb of Derby.

So when she gets to San Diego, I get a call asking, "What the hell did
you do in Kansas...we didn't fly over one significant patch of
water...?"

Harry, you make over 500 posts a week to this group and you don't own
a boat?
And why are you so crabby?
Maybe these two factors are related?



One has to own something to use it? Hmmm. My bride drives off in
her car
every day, but she doesn't own it.

I'm not crabby. You asked for advice I gave you some. I questioned your
wanting to take a very small boat out into high seas and suddenly you
turned sour. It's your pot; you are the one stewing in it.

No, it is the boat of a friend. It is a 24' ProLine center console
with,
if I recall, a 225 hp Merc on it. It was a dark and stormy day in
January (1997) when we went out, but the sky cleared once we got out to
the Gulf Stream.


Bride and I caught and released:

1 white marlin
12-15 yellowtail snappers, maybe two pounds each. Pretty, pretty fish.
Assorted red snappers
1 amberjack
2 jack crevalle jacks
1 snook
Nondescript sharks

Did you spend a year as a line psychotherapist at a 650-bed state
hospital for forensic patients?
Did you spend a year as senior psychotherapist at a county facility for
substance abusers?
Did you spend two years as chief of therapy at a private, 200-bed
facility for the mentally and emotionally ill, at which approximately
half the patients were trying to beat drugs or alcohol?
Are you currently chief of therapy for a for a multi-practitioner
practice of some 825 patients, about a third of which are seeking help
for substance abuse problems?


Licensed psychotherapist
Screening as to character and background for each degree earned
On-going screening by faculty while in educational system
Interviews and screenings for required years of internships, plus,
at the same
time, supervision by a licensed professional.
Close professional and personal supervision by a licensed therapist
for two years
of employment before being allowed to apply for licensure
Licensure background check, submission of recommendations by licensed
practitioners
Four hour written examination on state laws
Five hour written examination on diagnosis, procedure and practice

My wife went through this before becoming licensed. Her final
internship was as a
psychotherapist at a 600-bed high security state psychiatric
hospital where, on a
daily basis, she was exposed to more danger than your average soldier.

My wife worked for a year as psychotherapist in a Florida 600-bed state
mental institution for forensic patients. She saw and treated numerous
sexual deviants who do a bit more than expose themselves. Such
"treatment"
is part of being in the mental health professions.


You see, I'm a nautical psychotherapist, and for only $125 an hour,
until their health insurance runs out, I help Bayliner owners
overcome their
feelings of boatable inadequacy.


She is a licensed, practicing
psychotherapist and often tells me I am the sanest person she sees each
day. Which can be taken any way one likes.


1. I'm married to a psychotherapist. Live-in therapy, dontcha know?
And much of
Freud is passe.

My ex-wife surpassed the anti-Christ at least a decade ago.

They're not actually "free" moments. I go to boat dealers to round-up
Bayliner owners who are trying to find one who will take their own
version of flotsam and jetsam in on trade.


1. The address listed is not a home address. It is an office.

2. I have three phone numbers. The phone number listed is not one of
mine. It has never been one of mine. The phone number *did* belong
to an
after-hours message recording hotline my wife maintained for her most
mentally disturbed patients. Some of these troubled souls were
court-ordered referrals. *Every* call to that phone number--every
call--was recorded AND because of the nature of the line, my wife had
the ability to alert the telephone company to trace the phone number of
every incoming call to that line, *even* if the person making the call
tried to block his number.

Why, you might ask? Because when you are dealing with suicidal people,
they'll liable to tell their therapist over the phone that they are
planning to take their life. If the therapist believes the threat is
real, she or he will want to dispatch emergency srvices and perhaps the
police.

In the years my wife has provided this pro bono service, she has never
received a threatening or abusive call from a mentally ill patient or
court-ordered referral. However, after the ranking Flaming Ass of this
newsgroup posted the hotline number in this newsgroup, she received a
number of abusive, foul-mouthed AND life-threatening calls. These were
mostly directed at me but, of course, I never received them BECAUSE
(duh!) the phone is not mine and I've never answered it.
Naturally, my wife alerted the authorities, with whom she works closely
because of her court-referred patients. The authorities are
investigating the callers and have involved both the FBI *and*
authorities in other states, including Florida, Georgia, California and
Texas. Working with the telephone company, the authorities have been
able to trace the origin of virtually every abusive call. And, of
course, they have the tape recordings of the abusive messages. Several
suspects have been identified. I really don't know what the outcome of
all this will be. We haven't had an update in several weeks, nor are
either of us here that interested in the sleazeballs that would make
such calls.


The phone number, of course, is "wired," so when the obnoxious
calls came in
from the idiot rec.boaters, the numbers were easy enough to trace.
The local
police handled a complaint, the local telco was involved and when
it was
discovered the point of origin was out of state, the FBI got
involved. At
least one of the idiots was caught and prosecuted. As far as I can
tell, he
has not posted here again





"K Smith" wrote in message
...

They have changed the name but when queried they won't in any manner
detail how this is much different from Ficht & it appears to be not much
more than a marketing ploy.



When have you ever queried Bombardier on info for the E-TEC motors? Did you
call the number that I have given you several times over the years,
847-687-9030? Have you checked the Evinrude website? Have you read the
articles in various magazines where they have run these motors since last
February? Even an automotive trade journal had a write-up on how the E-TEC
worked. Not only that, most mechanically inclined folks can see how simple
the mechanics are since they are refinements of the DFI principal.


"K Smith" wrote
As with the other NG OMC spammers when Ficht went feet up in a

table drain they just ran away & left everybody they'd induced to buy
Ficht hung out to dry, they literally went into hiding, now they're
crawling back to sell sell sell again.



I've followed this newsgroup for better or worse for quite a few years now
and never ran away from anything. Even thru the OMC shutdown we serviced our
customers, and other companies opened up to take care of the electronics and
injector repairs on them. I also offered what help for people who contacted
rec.boats with problem motors. Waranty companies offered coverage for FICHTS
after the shutdown so customers would be protected.When Bombardier took
over, they had the resources to build a new plant with new tooling and
improved quality control, and made the motors even better than before and
took over warranty costs for the previous 2 model years. They did not have
to redesign the motors, just refine them a bit. The biggest improvement was
the closer scrutiny of vendor quality control.



"K Smith" wrote

Don't buy one of these not ever, they are not consumer market place
proven in any manner & their connections to Ficht mean you'll be used as
a test dummy, just as they used paying consumers to prove Ficht wouldn't
work.




Gee, Karen, FICHT has worked since redesigned in 2000 as FICHT Ram and for
the last 3 years either won (2003), finished a close 2nd (2002), or received
honorable mention (2001) in the annual JD Powers marine engine study, which
also is the industry standard for rating customer satisfaction with cars,
etc. If they did not work or were not dependable, wouldn't you think you
would have read, seen, and heard about it in the boating industry? How many
posts have you read about continuous problems with Bombardier outboards?
Next to none, right?
They (OMC) did have major problems in 1998 and 1999, but only with the
150-175hp motors, the 1997 model worked OK, as did the V4's and the
200-225hp versions. Don't forget that I was the one who gave you the then
OMC president's quote than 20% of the 1998-99 150-175's had major problems.
Not only that but instead of leaving customers "out to dry", they sent teams
around the country to upgrade customer's motors to improved specs. But that
is all old history and most informed boaters already know that as its been
published woldwide for years.


Karen, if you would like more info on the E-TEC or how it works, fine, just
ask. Try to be polite, as many of the readers of this group are decent
folks. I've always offered accurate information freely on this forum; not
the one who went to a junkyard and meaured total timer base movement and
shouted than OMC retarded spark 30 degrees to make them idle, instead of
checking out a running motor to see what the specs really were. Again, that
is old history.

Bill Grannis
service manager

"Lawrence James" wrote in message
nk.net...

50hp is 50hp.

Not exactly.

What gets you moving is torque. Horsepower is torque times RPM.

In many cases, a two cycle engine is capable of running at a higher RPM. If
you can get 10% more RPM out of an engine, you can often get 10% more
horsepower. That doesn't mean you can use that horsepower. If you can't
get the engine up to that extra 10% it will never be used. Unfortunately,
it was at that higher RPM where the engine earned its rating.

If there is a concern about getting on plane, then low end torque is king.
This is where 4 cycles usually have the advantage over two cycles. On the
other hand, if you can get planing okay, and need the best top end, 2 cycles
usually come alive at the higher RPMs and can provide more top end.

Rod McInnis

Hmmm. I'm the originator of this thread. I've posted the same query at a
number of boat/motor sites. The results were, at my last count..27 to 3 ...
two stroke over 4 stroke.

Rod's theory that 4 strokes can and do produce more "thrust" is exactly the
type of answer/theory of what I am looking for. I need hole shot, not high
end speed, or necessarily better gas mileage. I don't troll, I don't go long
distances. I flats fish. Up, on plane... quickly..on to the next spot.
I normally run in 18 inches of water or less. Hole shot is where my needs
are...it seems to me.

Rod, is there any study, etc. that speaks to the "better thrust" factor on 4
strokes that you mentioned? You are the very first to bring this into the
equation and it is critical for my particular use.
thanks vm RichG




"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"Lawrence James" wrote in message
nk.net...

50hp is 50hp.

Not exactly.

What gets you moving is torque. Horsepower is torque times RPM.

In many cases, a two cycle engine is capable of running at a higher RPM.
If
you can get 10% more RPM out of an engine, you can often get 10% more
horsepower. That doesn't mean you can use that horsepower. If you can't
get the engine up to that extra 10% it will never be used. Unfortunately,
it was at that higher RPM where the engine earned its rating.

If there is a concern about getting on plane, then low end torque is king.
This is where 4 cycles usually have the advantage over two cycles. On the
other hand, if you can get planing okay, and need the best top end, 2
cycles
usually come alive at the higher RPMs and can provide more top end.

Rod McInnis

"Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"Lawrence James" wrote in message
nk.net...

50hp is 50hp.

Not exactly.

What gets you moving is torque. Horsepower is torque times RPM.

In many cases, a two cycle engine is capable of running at a higher RPM.
If
you can get 10% more RPM out of an engine, you can often get 10% more
horsepower. That doesn't mean you can use that horsepower. If you can't
get the engine up to that extra 10% it will never be used. Unfortunately,
it was at that higher RPM where the engine earned its rating.

If there is a concern about getting on plane, then low end torque is king.
This is where 4 cycles usually have the advantage over two cycles. On the
other hand, if you can get planing okay, and need the best top end, 2
cycles
usually come alive at the higher RPMs and can provide more top end.

Rod McInnis



Then why do big 4 stroke OB's have to turn higher rpm to develop the same
HP?

Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"Lawrence James" wrote in message
nk.net...

50hp is 50hp.

Not exactly.

What gets you moving is torque. Horsepower is torque times RPM.

In many cases, a two cycle engine is capable of running at a higher RPM.
If
you can get 10% more RPM out of an engine, you can often get 10% more
horsepower. That doesn't mean you can use that horsepower. If you can't
get the engine up to that extra 10% it will never be used. Unfortunately,
it was at that higher RPM where the engine earned its rating.

If there is a concern about getting on plane, then low end torque is king.
This is where 4 cycles usually have the advantage over two cycles. On the
other hand, if you can get planing okay, and need the best top end, 2
cycles
usually come alive at the higher RPMs and can provide more top end.

Rod McInnis





Two stroke engines have always made more low end torque, both motorcycle and
marine. For one reason because the spark plug fires every revolution instead of
every other.

Engine horsepower is rated at the point of the torque curve where the hp
(torque x rpm) is the highest. Not at the maximum rpm. The torque (and
therefore the hp) ususally falls off very quickly at high rpms.The grind of the
cam on a four stroke controls the torque curve and the maufacturer can move the
maximum torque up or down the band based on duration and lift. A cam built for
low end torque will suffer at high rpms while a cam built for speed will suffer
at low rpms. Marine four strokes are not cam'ed for low end since they are
mostly used at the higher end of the rpm band.

Two strokes generally have a much flatter torque curve.

Be very careful believing everything you read here, you may end up sorely
disappointed if you buy a four stroke. They are heavier and produce much less
low end torque. The four strokes are selling based on their fuel economy and
emissions, not on performance.

Barry

The four strokes are selling based on their fuel economy and
emissions, not on performance

Also because of the smooth power curve. I said real early in this thread that
if you are a go fast guy you need a 2 stroke, for lots of reasons. 4 strokes
make more sense for guys who go slow to medium speed (3000-4000RPM) a lot with
occasional WOT.
At WOT or close, it makes a lot of sense to have fewer moving parts.

On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 02:29:34 +0000, F330 GT wrote:

Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"Lawrence James" wrote in message
nk.net...

50hp is 50hp.

Not exactly.

What gets you moving is torque. Horsepower is torque times RPM.

In many cases, a two cycle engine is capable of running at a higher RPM.
If
you can get 10% more RPM out of an engine, you can often get 10% more
horsepower. That doesn't mean you can use that horsepower. If you can't
get the engine up to that extra 10% it will never be used. Unfortunately,
it was at that higher RPM where the engine earned its rating.

If there is a concern about getting on plane, then low end torque is king.
This is where 4 cycles usually have the advantage over two cycles. On the
other hand, if you can get planing okay, and need the best top end, 2
cycles
usually come alive at the higher RPMs and can provide more top end.

Rod McInnis





Two stroke engines have always made more low end torque, both motorcycle and
marine. For one reason because the spark plug fires every revolution instead of
every other.


Nice theory, but it hasn't been my experience. My RD350 (2-stroke) had
"toggle-switch power" - wimpy as hell under 5000, then...HANG ON! OTOH, My
Virago (4-stroke) has lots of low-end grunt at 2000, and tops out around
6K.

I think is has to do with efficiencies - a 2-stroke doesn't run well at
low rpm.

Lloyd

My RD350 (2-stroke) had
"toggle-switch power" - wimpy as hell under 5000, then...HANG ON! OTOH

Agreed
Same bike, same impression.
I have the same feeling about my 4 stroke Merc vs my old 2 stroke. I have lots
of low speed torque swinging a 14" prop on a 60hp with the 4 stroke.

Anatomy of a hole shot:

I'm using a 6 cylinder 2-stroke so I get 6 firing pulses per single RPM.
Mine seems tuned so that the " best powerband" is from 3200 - 5500 rpms.

When I punch it from a dead stop. I use a "quick 2-step" hole shot.
The 1st movement of the lever advances the spark from idle to WOT advance
(in my case 21 degrees BTDC), As I do that the motor starts to come up to
2000+ rpms. Then, I hammer it the rest of the way and throw open the
butterflies in the carbs.

Now, all this happens inside of a second and is actually a faster hole-shot,
because if you just dump it to WOT - there is a "bog" caused by the sudden
loss of vaccuum in the throttle bodies. If you let it spool up a little on
the advance first, it then takes the carbs opening with glee.

Soo.... once the carbs are also at full WOT, the RPMs rises rapidly from
about 2000 to 4500. At some point during this - the boat actually starts
making some real forward headway, quickly jumps on plane, and reaches 5500
as the boat speeds up. By the time all this has gone on (assuming you're
pulling a squeaktoy behind the boat) it's time to pull back on throttle to
the 4200 rpm cruise.

BUT , if the boat is overpropped, overloaded, or both, I can see a distinct
"hesitation" at about 3000 RPM where the motor "struggles" to make more
RPM's. Once it passes 3200 I know it'll make it out of the water, and the
RPM's climb much more quickly from there. So I conclude that somewhere above
3000, the motor hits the powerband and starts making its best power. I
noticed the same characteristics with my old 80hp six, except that it also
had a distinct "bark" as it made it over 3200 and got up "on the pipe".

At the other end..... it pulls hard to 5500 and then the curve drops off a
bit. It takes "a while" for it to get from 5500 to 6000 as the boat speeds
up slowly. I'm told that on a racing hull they'll pull to 7000 and then
drop way off. The experts conclude that it makes little usable power over
7000.

Sooooo, I conclude from all this, that I make the "best power" from
3200 - 5500.

-W







"Lloyd Sumpter" wrote in message
news
On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 02:29:34 +0000, F330 GT wrote:

Rod McInnis" wrote in message
...

"Lawrence James" wrote in message
nk.net...

50hp is 50hp.

Not exactly.

What gets you moving is torque. Horsepower is torque times RPM.

In many cases, a two cycle engine is capable of running at a higher
RPM.
If
you can get 10% more RPM out of an engine, you can often get 10% more
horsepower. That doesn't mean you can use that horsepower. If you
can't
get the engine up to that extra 10% it will never be used.
Unfortunately,
it was at that higher RPM where the engine earned its rating.

If there is a concern about getting on plane, then low end torque is
king.
This is where 4 cycles usually have the advantage over two cycles. On
the
other hand, if you can get planing okay, and need the best top end, 2
cycles
usually come alive at the higher RPMs and can provide more top end.

Rod McInnis





Two stroke engines have always made more low end torque, both motorcycle
and
marine. For one reason because the spark plug fires every revolution
instead of
every other.


Nice theory, but it hasn't been my experience. My RD350 (2-stroke) had
"toggle-switch power" - wimpy as hell under 5000, then...HANG ON! OTOH, My
Virago (4-stroke) has lots of low-end grunt at 2000, and tops out around
6K.

I think is has to do with efficiencies - a 2-stroke doesn't run well at
low rpm.

Lloyd