(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 10 Dec 2003 09:00:31 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

K Smith wrote in message ...
Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

Once again, you've proven you stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
You certainly don't understand simple physics. If you make the tongue
longer, you will need to move the wheels BACK to keep the balance the
same. Say you have the tongue 10' from the wheels, and the tongue
weight is 100 pounds, to say, at that 10', you need to resist 100
pounds to lift the tongue. Now, we extend the tongue, to 15'. Now you
have a longer lever, thereby LESS tongue weight. To compensate, you
need to move the wheels BACK.

It really pains me to see the lack of understanding of basic physics by
a lot of people that this thread has exposed. For example, take the
argument above. Both of you may be right, both of you may be wrong, you
can't tell from the information given. In the specific example above of
a tongue weight of 100lbs with a tongue length of 10' from axle to
hitch, if you extend the tongue another 5' you may have to move the axle
forward, backward, or not at all to keep that 100lb hitch weight.
That's because in addition to changing the lever length, the weight on
the hitch also depends on what the weight of the additional 5' of tongue
did to the balance point. Since that hasn't been specified, the answer
is unknown.

Steve

The tongue would have to be made out of something VERY heavy, lead
perhaps, to to make up for the additional lever arm from the fulcrum
point. Basically, a foot of tongue would have to weigh the same as a
foot of the boat and trailer.

On 11 Dec 2003 04:38:54 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 10 Dec 2003 09:00:31 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

K Smith wrote in message ...
Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

Once again, you've proven you stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
You certainly don't understand simple physics. If you make the tongue
longer, you will need to move the wheels BACK to keep the balance the
same. Say you have the tongue 10' from the wheels, and the tongue
weight is 100 pounds, to say, at that 10', you need to resist 100
pounds to lift the tongue. Now, we extend the tongue, to 15'. Now you
have a longer lever, thereby LESS tongue weight. To compensate, you
need to move the wheels BACK.

It really pains me to see the lack of understanding of basic physics by
a lot of people that this thread has exposed. For example, take the
argument above. Both of you may be right, both of you may be wrong, you
can't tell from the information given. In the specific example above of
a tongue weight of 100lbs with a tongue length of 10' from axle to
hitch, if you extend the tongue another 5' you may have to move the axle
forward, backward, or not at all to keep that 100lb hitch weight.
That's because in addition to changing the lever length, the weight on
the hitch also depends on what the weight of the additional 5' of tongue
did to the balance point. Since that hasn't been specified, the answer
is unknown.

The tongue would have to be made out of something VERY heavy, lead
perhaps, to to make up for the additional lever arm from the fulcrum
point. Basically, a foot of tongue would have to weigh the same as a
foot of the boat and trailer.

Bzzzzt! Wrong answer. It doesn't matter what a foot of the boat and
trailer weigh. The fact that it's wrong can be demonstrated very simply
by taking the problem to an extreme. Say in your example above that
your boat and trailer weighs 10,000 lbs and it's balanced so that the
hitch weight is only 1 lb. If you add 5' to the tongue, you are almost
gauranteed to *increase* the hitch weight unless you use some sort of
space aged material that weighs less then 1lb for the entire extension.

The boat and trailer could weight 1000 lbs/foot and you still would
significantly increase the hitch weight if the extension only weighed 1
lb/foot.

Steve

On 11 Dec 2003 04:35:05 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 10 Dec 2003 09:00:31 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

K Smith wrote in message ...
Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

K

Once again, you've proven you stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
You certainly don't understand simple physics. If you make the tongue
longer, you will need to move the wheels BACK to keep the balance the
same. Say you have the tongue 10' from the wheels, and the tongue
weight is 100 pounds, to say, at that 10', you need to resist 100
pounds to lift the tongue. Now, we extend the tongue, to 15'. Now you
have a longer lever, thereby LESS tongue weight. To compensate, you
need to move the wheels BACK.

Tell ya what I'll do, I'm not going to give you the answer, but I'll
define a problem and let basskisser and Karen come up with solutions and
see if they come up with the same one, and then hack out their
differences.

Let's go with the situation above. Assume you have a trailer where the
distance from hitch to axle is 10' and the tongue weight is 100lbs.
Also, assume that the trailer is level because if it isn't, it will
affect the answer. Also assume that the tongue extension has a constant
weight per unit length.

Now increase the length of the tongue to 15' from axle to hitch. Just
from the difference in leverage, what is the new, lower weight on the
hitch?

Since we assumed that the extension has a linear weight/length, the
center of mass of the extension is 2.5' from the hitch and 12.5' from
the axle. So what percentage of the weight of the extension is
supported by the hitch?

Knowing the percentage of the weight of the extension that's supported
by the hitch, how much does the extension have to weigh to exactly
counteract the decrease in weight due to leverage and keep the weight on
the hitch at 100lbs?

If the extension weighs any more than the answer you come up with, then
you have to move the wheels forward to keep the weight 100lbs. Any
less, then you have to move the wheels back.

Bonus question: assume that the original level trailer with the 10' from
axle to hitch weighs 1000lbs and the hitch weight is 100lbs, or 10% of
the trailer weight. You extend the tongue by 5' using an extension that
weighs 10 lbs/ft. How far and in what direction do you have to move the
axle to keep the hitch weight 10% of the new trailer weight?

Have fun!

Steve

I know damn well what the outcome is. But, I don't have to show/prove
to you a damned thing. I solve baby **** like that on a daily basis.

Apparently not if you think that the extension has to weigh the same per
unit length as the boat and trailer to balance it out.

Instead of thinking you know what the outcome is, why don't you solve
the problem and see if you're right? Don't even worry about the bonus
question if that's too hard. The main question is fairly simple to
solve even with the most basic high school level of physics. Hell, I
pretty much set the whole thing out for you on how to solve it.

Steve

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 11 Dec 2003 04:35:05 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 10 Dec 2003 09:00:31 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

K Smith wrote in message ...
Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

K

Once again, you've proven you stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
You certainly don't understand simple physics. If you make the tongue
longer, you will need to move the wheels BACK to keep the balance the
same. Say you have the tongue 10' from the wheels, and the tongue
weight is 100 pounds, to say, at that 10', you need to resist 100
pounds to lift the tongue. Now, we extend the tongue, to 15'. Now you
have a longer lever, thereby LESS tongue weight. To compensate, you
need to move the wheels BACK.

Tell ya what I'll do, I'm not going to give you the answer, but I'll
define a problem and let basskisser and Karen come up with solutions and
see if they come up with the same one, and then hack out their
differences.

Let's go with the situation above. Assume you have a trailer where the
distance from hitch to axle is 10' and the tongue weight is 100lbs.
Also, assume that the trailer is level because if it isn't, it will
affect the answer. Also assume that the tongue extension has a constant
weight per unit length.

Now increase the length of the tongue to 15' from axle to hitch. Just
from the difference in leverage, what is the new, lower weight on the
hitch?

Since we assumed that the extension has a linear weight/length, the
center of mass of the extension is 2.5' from the hitch and 12.5' from
the axle. So what percentage of the weight of the extension is
supported by the hitch?

Knowing the percentage of the weight of the extension that's supported
by the hitch, how much does the extension have to weigh to exactly
counteract the decrease in weight due to leverage and keep the weight on
the hitch at 100lbs?

If the extension weighs any more than the answer you come up with, then
you have to move the wheels forward to keep the weight 100lbs. Any
less, then you have to move the wheels back.

Bonus question: assume that the original level trailer with the 10' from
axle to hitch weighs 1000lbs and the hitch weight is 100lbs, or 10% of
the trailer weight. You extend the tongue by 5' using an extension that
weighs 10 lbs/ft. How far and in what direction do you have to move the
axle to keep the hitch weight 10% of the new trailer weight?

Have fun!

Steve

I know damn well what the outcome is. But, I don't have to show/prove
to you a damned thing. I solve baby **** like that on a daily basis.

Apparently not if you think that the extension has to weigh the same per
unit length as the boat and trailer to balance it out.

didn't say that. Read for context, please.

Instead of thinking you know what the outcome is, why don't you solve
the problem and see if you're right? Don't even worry about the bonus
question if that's too hard. The main question is fairly simple to
solve even with the most basic high school level of physics. Hell, I
pretty much set the whole thing out for you on how to solve it.

Steve

I KNOW I'm right. And, yes, as I've stated, it IS basic high school
physics. Again, I KNOW the answer, but alas, I'm not about to play
your idiotic games. I have nothing that I need to prove to an
ignoramus like you. Explaining and teaching something to a dimwit is
all but impossible.

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 11 Dec 2003 04:38:54 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 10 Dec 2003 09:00:31 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

K Smith wrote in message ...
Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

Once again, you've proven you stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
You certainly don't understand simple physics. If you make the tongue
longer, you will need to move the wheels BACK to keep the balance the
same. Say you have the tongue 10' from the wheels, and the tongue
weight is 100 pounds, to say, at that 10', you need to resist 100
pounds to lift the tongue. Now, we extend the tongue, to 15'. Now you
have a longer lever, thereby LESS tongue weight. To compensate, you
need to move the wheels BACK.

It really pains me to see the lack of understanding of basic physics by
a lot of people that this thread has exposed. For example, take the
argument above. Both of you may be right, both of you may be wrong, you
can't tell from the information given. In the specific example above of
a tongue weight of 100lbs with a tongue length of 10' from axle to
hitch, if you extend the tongue another 5' you may have to move the axle
forward, backward, or not at all to keep that 100lb hitch weight.
That's because in addition to changing the lever length, the weight on
the hitch also depends on what the weight of the additional 5' of tongue
did to the balance point. Since that hasn't been specified, the answer
is unknown.

The tongue would have to be made out of something VERY heavy, lead
perhaps, to to make up for the additional lever arm from the fulcrum
point. Basically, a foot of tongue would have to weigh the same as a
foot of the boat and trailer.

Bzzzzt! Wrong answer. It doesn't matter what a foot of the boat and
trailer weigh. The fact that it's wrong can be demonstrated very simply
by taking the problem to an extreme. Say in your example above that
your boat and trailer weighs 10,000 lbs and it's balanced so that the
hitch weight is only 1 lb. If you add 5' to the tongue, you are almost
gauranteed to *increase* the hitch weight unless you use some sort of
space aged material that weighs less then 1lb for the entire extension.

The boat and trailer could weight 1000 lbs/foot and you still would
significantly increase the hitch weight if the extension only weighed 1
lb/foot.

Steve

Uh, no...let's see if YOU want to play the game. Find in the above
where you are in HUGE error. Hint: The c.g. of the boat/trailer has
not changed in relation to the fulcrum.

"basskisser" wrote in message
om...

Uh, no...let's see if YOU want to play the game. Find in the above
where you are in HUGE error. Hint: The c.g. of the boat/trailer has
not changed in relation to the fulcrum.


Okay, run this experiment:

Find a couple of kids that are the same weight and head off to a
playground that has a see-saw (do they still have these things??). Take
along a 1 foot 2x4 and a 10 foot 2x4, a C-clamp (to fasten the 2x4 to the
see-saw) and a scale.


Clamp the 1 foot 2x4 to the see-saw, and set the kids on seats. Measure the
downward force on the end of the 2x4. If the two kids were the same weight,
and the see-saw was balanced to start with, you should be measuring
something very close to zero.

Now remove the short 2x4 and clamp on the 10 foot 2x4. Take the same
measurement at the end of the this lever arm.

Do you really think that it will be less than zero?

The answer will be that you will measure some portion of the total weight of
the 2x4.

Back to the boat application:

If the original tongue weight was significantly more than the added weight
of the tongue extension then you can safely ignore it. On the other hand, if
the trailer was close to being "in balance" then you can't ignore it.

What Steve said is absolutely correct. Without knowing the balance point
you can't determine if adding tongue length will increase or decrease the
tongue weight.

"RG" wrote in message
...

p.s. regarding an extended tongue making backing up "less
maneuverable"...yes, but, the longer the trailer/tongue, the BETTER the
trailer backs up.

That depends on your tow vehicle and what you consider to be "better".


The shorter the distance between the hitch and the trailer wheels, the
faster the trailer turns. This can be GREAT for maneuvering in tight
quarters, IF your tow vehicle can turn to match it. If you have a long
wheel base tow vehicle (slow turning) and a short wheel base trailer you can
end up having something that is a bitch to back up. If you are really good
at handling it you can prevent the trailer from getting into a turn that you
can't recover from (without pulling forward). Such a driver might not mind
this trailer characteristics.

A fair percentage of the people I see at the boat ramps would be much better
off with a much longer wheel base trailer!

Rod McInnis

"Steven Shelikoff" wrote in message
...


I'll define a problem

Can I play too??????

distance from hitch to axle is 10' and the tongue weight is 100lbs.

Okay, that is 10' x 100 lbs = 1000 ft-lbs moment around the axel.


Now increase the length of the tongue to 15' from axle to hitch.

1000 ft-lbs / 15 feet = 66.666 pounds.


center of mass of the extension is 2.5' from the hitch and 12.5' from
the axle. So what percentage of the weight of the extension is
supported by the hitch?

12.5' / 15' x 100 = 83%


Knowing the percentage of the weight of the extension that's supported
by the hitch, how much does the extension have to weigh to exactly
counteract the decrease in weight due to leverage and keep the weight on
the hitch at 100lbs?

33 lbs / .83 = 40.1 lbs.

Bonus question: assume that the original level trailer with the 10' from
axle to hitch weighs 1000lbs and the hitch weight is 100lbs, or 10% of
the trailer weight.

100 lbs x 10 feet = 1000 ft pounds. This means that the center of mass for
the trailer is 1 foot forward of the axels.

You extend the tongue by 5' using an extension that
weighs 10 lbs/ft.

We have added 50 pounds of material that has a center of mass 12.5 from
the axel. The moment about the axels would be 50 lbs x 12.5 ft = 625
ft-lbs. Total moment is now 1625 ft-lbs. The new tongue weight will be
108.3 pounds.

The new trailer weight is 1050 pounds.

1625 ft-lbs / 1050 pounds = 1.5 feet, thus the new center of mass is 1.5
feet in front of the axel, or 13.5 feet from the hitch.

How far and in what direction do you have to move the
axle to keep the hitch weight 10% of the new trailer weight?

The desired of tongue weight of 10% would be 105 pounds.
To get this, the distance from the hitch to the center of mass (13.5 feet)
needs to be 10 times greater than the distance from the center of mass to
the axel. Thus, the distance from the center of mass to the axel is 13.5/10
= 1.35 feet.

Answer: The axel will have to move FORWARD 0.15 feet



Did I get it right? Huh? Huh? Huh?
Do I get a star on my paper?????


Rod McInnis

On 11 Dec 2003 10:48:51 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 11 Dec 2003 04:38:54 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 10 Dec 2003 09:00:31 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

K Smith wrote in message ...
Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

Once again, you've proven you stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
You certainly don't understand simple physics. If you make the tongue
longer, you will need to move the wheels BACK to keep the balance the
same. Say you have the tongue 10' from the wheels, and the tongue
weight is 100 pounds, to say, at that 10', you need to resist 100
pounds to lift the tongue. Now, we extend the tongue, to 15'. Now you
have a longer lever, thereby LESS tongue weight. To compensate, you
need to move the wheels BACK.

It really pains me to see the lack of understanding of basic physics by
a lot of people that this thread has exposed. For example, take the
argument above. Both of you may be right, both of you may be wrong, you
can't tell from the information given. In the specific example above of
a tongue weight of 100lbs with a tongue length of 10' from axle to
hitch, if you extend the tongue another 5' you may have to move the axle
forward, backward, or not at all to keep that 100lb hitch weight.
That's because in addition to changing the lever length, the weight on
the hitch also depends on what the weight of the additional 5' of tongue
did to the balance point. Since that hasn't been specified, the answer
is unknown.

The tongue would have to be made out of something VERY heavy, lead
perhaps, to to make up for the additional lever arm from the fulcrum
point. Basically, a foot of tongue would have to weigh the same as a
foot of the boat and trailer.

Bzzzzt! Wrong answer. It doesn't matter what a foot of the boat and
trailer weigh. The fact that it's wrong can be demonstrated very simply
by taking the problem to an extreme. Say in your example above that
your boat and trailer weighs 10,000 lbs and it's balanced so that the
hitch weight is only 1 lb. If you add 5' to the tongue, you are almost
gauranteed to *increase* the hitch weight unless you use some sort of
space aged material that weighs less then 1lb for the entire extension.

The boat and trailer could weight 1000 lbs/foot and you still would
significantly increase the hitch weight if the extension only weighed 1
lb/foot.

Uh, no...let's see if YOU want to play the game. Find in the above
where you are in HUGE error. Hint: The c.g. of the boat/trailer has
not changed in relation to the fulcrum.

Are you actually trying to say that if I have a boat/trailer that weighs
10,000 lbs and the hitch is 10' from the axle and the hitch weight is
1lb, then I add an extension on the end of the tongue to increase the
hitch to axle distance to 15' and the hitch extension weighs a million
pounds, that I have not changed the location of the cg of the
boat/trailer in relation to the fulcrum, which is the axle?

If that's what you're trying to say, then I can only reiterate my
original point, which is that it's amazing to me the lack of
understanding of simple physics from quite a few posters that this
thread has brought to light.

Steve

On 11 Dec 2003 10:42:43 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 11 Dec 2003 04:35:05 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

(Steven Shelikoff) wrote in message ...
On 10 Dec 2003 09:00:31 -0800, (basskisser) wrote:

K Smith wrote in message ...
Snafu wrote:
Gary, I'm not understanding the part about "the longer the tongue, the
furthur back we can put the wheels." To maintain the ~10% of the weight on
the hitch rule, increasing the tongue length works the opposite way.

Absolutely the longer the tongue (drawbar?) the further "forward" the
wheels will by to keep the balance right.

K

Once again, you've proven you stick your nose where it doesn't belong.
You certainly don't understand simple physics. If you make the tongue
longer, you will need to move the wheels BACK to keep the balance the
same. Say you have the tongue 10' from the wheels, and the tongue
weight is 100 pounds, to say, at that 10', you need to resist 100
pounds to lift the tongue. Now, we extend the tongue, to 15'. Now you
have a longer lever, thereby LESS tongue weight. To compensate, you
need to move the wheels BACK.

Tell ya what I'll do, I'm not going to give you the answer, but I'll
define a problem and let basskisser and Karen come up with solutions and
see if they come up with the same one, and then hack out their
differences.

Let's go with the situation above. Assume you have a trailer where the
distance from hitch to axle is 10' and the tongue weight is 100lbs.
Also, assume that the trailer is level because if it isn't, it will
affect the answer. Also assume that the tongue extension has a constant
weight per unit length.

Now increase the length of the tongue to 15' from axle to hitch. Just
from the difference in leverage, what is the new, lower weight on the
hitch?

Since we assumed that the extension has a linear weight/length, the
center of mass of the extension is 2.5' from the hitch and 12.5' from
the axle. So what percentage of the weight of the extension is
supported by the hitch?

Knowing the percentage of the weight of the extension that's supported
by the hitch, how much does the extension have to weigh to exactly
counteract the decrease in weight due to leverage and keep the weight on
the hitch at 100lbs?

If the extension weighs any more than the answer you come up with, then
you have to move the wheels forward to keep the weight 100lbs. Any
less, then you have to move the wheels back.

Bonus question: assume that the original level trailer with the 10' from
axle to hitch weighs 1000lbs and the hitch weight is 100lbs, or 10% of
the trailer weight. You extend the tongue by 5' using an extension that
weighs 10 lbs/ft. How far and in what direction do you have to move the
axle to keep the hitch weight 10% of the new trailer weight?

Have fun!

Steve

I know damn well what the outcome is. But, I don't have to show/prove
to you a damned thing. I solve baby **** like that on a daily basis.

Apparently not if you think that the extension has to weigh the same per
unit length as the boat and trailer to balance it out.

didn't say that. Read for context, please.

When I said that it's possible that you could be wrong, that the wheels
would have to move forward to balance out the extra weight of the hitch,
you said:
The tongue would have to be made out of something VERY heavy, lead
perhaps, to to make up for the additional lever arm from the fulcrum
point. Basically, a foot of tongue would have to weigh the same as a
foot of the boat and trailer.

If you didn't mean that a foot of the extension would have to weight the
same as a foot of the boat and trailer with your statement above, then
what did you mean?

Instead of thinking you know what the outcome is, why don't you solve
the problem and see if you're right? Don't even worry about the bonus
question if that's too hard. The main question is fairly simple to
solve even with the most basic high school level of physics. Hell, I
pretty much set the whole thing out for you on how to solve it.

Steve

I KNOW I'm right. And, yes, as I've stated, it IS basic high school
physics. Again, I KNOW the answer, but alas, I'm not about to play

You were wrong once, so apparently you don't KNOW the answer.

your idiotic games. I have nothing that I need to prove to an
ignoramus like you. Explaining and teaching something to a dimwit is
all but impossible.

You said it, not me.

Steve