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#11
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Emergency diesel shutdown
All those 2 stroke Detroit's were notorious for running away...I had a 4
banger Detroit in a 2 ton truck that ran away several times on me, man that little thing would scream like the head was going to fly off. It always took me a second or two to realize WTF was happening and yank out the emergency engine stop. Last month a farmer friend had the V6 Detroit in his forage harvester run away, it's done it a time or two. Don't even get me started on the oil leaks.......... The early Detroit Diesel 8V71 engines were notorious for the fuel injector control racks sticking, usually in the in the full fuel position. The normal "off control" just moved fuel command to the governor (the governor actually moves the racks) to the "no fuel" position so this clearly is not going to work. GM fixed this by putting an air door in the intake manifold. This door is located in the odd looking 90 degree bend going into the blower. When you pulled the red emergency stop T-handle on the dash, this door drops and cuts off the air supply to the engine. The air door shaft is spring loaded and e-stop just releases it - it has no facility to pull the door back into position. After this you had to manually reset this door by gaining access to the engine (usually jacking the cab) and flipping the little lever on the intake manifold. |
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#12
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Emergency diesel shutdown
Snafu wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Shut off the fuel supply, block the air intake and keep a load on the engine. You sure as hell don't want to pump CO2 down the airpipe. Harry, I'm curious why you wouldn't want the engine to breathe CO2. Because the CO2 is very, very cold and spraying it down into that hot engine will likely turn the engine into scrap in short order. -- Email sent to is never read. |
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#13
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Emergency diesel shutdown
Harry Krause wrote:
Because the CO2 is very, very cold and spraying it down into that hot engine will likely turn the engine into scrap in short order. "Thanks for playing, and we do have some lovely parting gifts for you........" Sorry Harry, the CO2 will be a gas by the time you get it to the engine. A CO2 extinguisher might work quite well. Or it might not, depending on the reason for the engine running away. Rick |
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#14
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Emergency diesel shutdown
Karl Denninger wrote:
If the cutoff is on the vacuum side of the supply, then shutting the valve will not instantly shut the engine down. In fact, it will run until the fuel in the lines is exhausted and the vacuum drawn by the lift pump exceeds what can be pulled through. If the valve is in the wrong place, this could be a considerable amount of fuel (e.g. if you can draw air into a filter cannister, you could conceivably have to run thruogh the entire cannister's contents before the engine shut down.) It doesn't matter. IF you have a runaway engine you must secure the fuel to the engine as a matter of safety and good practice. You do not necessarily know why the engine is running or if it will suddenly destroy itself and create a much more serious problem, like a fire burning off the open fuel supply. Do not hesitate to shut off the fuel. You should have remote fuel shutoffs in any event. Spraying a CO2 extinguisher into the intake will definitely shut it down. It will also likely destroy the engine. CO2 is stupid cold coming out of an extinguisher and the shock cooling will hose the motor fairly reliably. Nonsense. It will not damage the engine and it will not definitely shut it down either. What happens depends on the reason for the runaway and the condition of the engine air system. It will probably shut down the engine. BTW, air doors are popular emergency shutdowns on Detroits. The problem with tripping them is that above idle the engine will attempt to pull whatever it can through whatever is in the way after the air is cut off. The usual consequence of pulling the air doors is that the seals in the blower are destroyed and significant crankcase oil is pulled through. Which seals? It is common practice to use the emergency shutdown when testing the operation of emergency devices at full speed on 6-71 powered emergency diesel gensets on ships. I have done this hundreds of times and have yet to destroy any sort of seal. That beats having rods flying all over the engine room, but it still requires a teardown if they're used under load before the engine is restarted. Again, nonsense. If the engine did not overspeed for an extended period or run without oil pressure it is probably perfectly OK once the reason for the original runaway has been addressed. DO NOT put it before any significant reservoir of fuel, such as a filter. Most little diesels have a shutdown solenoid on the injector pump anyway so you don't need to add another valve. The solenoid most likely requires power to remain in the run position. Consider that the scenario will almost inevitably include the operator attempting to stop the engine by normal means (the switch) and then discovering that it will not stop. That may mean the solenoid has failed in the run position or there is another source of fuel, most likely lube oil. Shut the fuel valves off at wherever point in the system you can reach one. If you are able to approach the engine you may be able to move the speed lever on the pump/governor to the stop or low idle position. If you have a 2-stroke GM then trip the air door if it hasn't already tripped. If the engine is "running away" slowly and is showing no signs of major lube oil consumption, just wait till the fuel is exhausted. It will either stop or slow even more. If it does not stop then cover the intake filter or screen with rags, plastic bags or something to block the air supply. It should stop. If it doesn't and/or seems to be gaining speed then use a CO2 extinguisher into the intake. You will NOT harm the engine by using CO2. Even if you were somehow able to squirt liquid CO2 into the intake it would not somehow shock cool the engine and damage it. There is no little boat floating that has a large enough source of liquid CO2, or a means of delivery to supply enough liquid to damage the smallest of engines. Rick |
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#16
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Emergency diesel shutdown
LOL what do you do Harry, make this stuff up?
"Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Snafu wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Shut off the fuel supply, block the air intake and keep a load on the engine. You sure as hell don't want to pump CO2 down the airpipe. Harry, I'm curious why you wouldn't want the engine to breathe CO2. Because the CO2 is very, very cold and spraying it down into that hot engine will likely turn the engine into scrap in short order. -- Email sent to is never read. |
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#17
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Emergency diesel shutdown
Gould 0738 wrote:
A paragraph in a book I've been sent to review seems to be in error. Either that, or I'm not properly intuitice about this situation. The paragraph poses a mulitple choice question. "What is the best way to shut down a runaway diesel engine?" One choice is a throw-away. "Cut off the electrical supply." Bzzzt! "Thanks for playing, and we do have some lovely parting gifts for you........" The other two choices: 1. Cut off the fuel supply 2. Cut off the air supply I immediately thought, "the fuel supply. You shut down a diesel by cutting off the fuel." According to the author, the correct answer is supposed to be "Cut off the air supply." The author recommends "discharging a fire extinguisher into the air intake." Well, first off it would need to be the correct type of fire extinguisher. Some extinguishers are charged with halon (which is no longer legal to mfg in the US but is imported or recycled from other extinguishers) and a diesel will run like crazy on halon. And, I'm aware of emergency shut downs that have been accomplished with CO2 extinguishers, etc. I just thought those were cases where it was impractical to cut off the fuel supply. Wouldn't putting a postive stop to the fuel supply from the injector pump be a more certain solution? "Some" air might get sucked into the air intake along with the fire suppressant, maybe enough to allow the engine to cough past the extinguisher discharge and keep running. But, the engine absolutely will not run without fuel. Shutting off the fuel very far upstream wouldn't be a good choice, as an engine can run quite a while on the fuel in lines, filters, etc. Somebody care to agree, disagree, or show me why my preference for fuel shut down would be wrong? http://www.tomorrowsbestseller.com/w...State/book.asp Most things seem to have been covered except the injector lines. On small yacht pleasure boat type diesels in the panic that accompanies a runaway, a shifter to loosen the injector pipes flange nut(s) (just a tad is all) will stop it. Beware some diesel will escape so fire is always a risk, however it's the only one left off that should be known. ........... K Here's some of Harry's lies for you, just to bring back old memories:-) I'm doing my part to ease unemployment. I'm hiring another writer for my staff. Will be putting the ad on MONSTER.COM and in the Wash Post. I need more staff because 2004 is a major election year and business booked to date indicates we'll be drowning in work. We need to hire a production coordinator, too. It has very little to do with the state of the economy, other than using it as reason to defeat Republicrap candidates. I'm doing my part to ease unemployment. I'm hiring another writer for my staff. Will be putting the ad on MONSTER.COM and in the Wash Post. We have first-class benefits, including a top-of-the-line health insurance plan, a non-contributory defined-benefit pension plan, a 401k, and a life insurance policy equal to annual salary. We contribute a share of profits to the 401k on behalf of the employee. Our employees pay $4.50 for generic prescriptions and $8.00 for non-generics, but that's going up next year to $10 and $15. New employees get two weeks vacation the first year, and that goes to three weeks the third year. In addition, we have 12 paid holidays and we shut down from noon on Christmas eve to the day after New Year's Day. We also provide 20 days of paid sick leave a year. And we have an outside company administering pre-tax flexible bennies for our employees. Our fringe benefit package follows the trade union model, except, of course, for the profit contributions to 401k's. Trade unions are not-for-profit enterprises. How do these compare to the bennies at your shop? Paid? Every year? I call "bull****". With 3 weeks vacation, 12 paid holidays, and 20 paid sick days that's 47 *paid* days off every year. Are they hourly employees? For a "small business", that's the road to bankruptcy. Boy...and you had me going there for a minute. Not quite so simple, though you are trying hard to make it so. Our business is up because we're on the cusp of an election year. Our business always goes up in a major election year. You could say we're going to be doing very well in 2004 because Bush is such a total failure. The 20 paid sick days aren't part of the "paid" days off unless those days are used. None of our people abuses sick leave. In fact, no one as yet has even come close to using 20 sick days in one year. They're there in case they're needed. Oh, I forgot. We also provide everyone with LTD. The company provides an insurance plan that pays 50% of an employe's salary for Long Term Disability. Employes have the option of purchasing an additional 16.66%, bringing their total to 66.66%. The basic benefit maximum is $4,000 per month. With the buy up, the limit is increased to $10,000 per month. Here's just some of his prior lies (in his own words pasted); I sold off nearly $3,000,000 in new motors and boats, depressing the new boat industry in southern Connecticut for an entire season. Everything was sold...every cotter pin, every quart of oil, 30 days after I started. For near full-retail, too. He had just under $1,000,000 on floor plan with a syndicate of banks led by National Shawmut of Boston. He had been a solid customer of that back for more than 20 years and they gave him great rates. As far as your other complaints, well, almost every president in my memory, and I *remember* Truman, Eisenhower (who cheated on his wife), Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and Bush, lied and participated in deceit to one degree or another, and on issues far more important than who was giving them blow jobs. Good lord. I met *every* president in the damned group except Bush, and I worked once for his father. My father used to pray that the north shore of LI Sound would be hit by a mild hurricane. No one injured, no on-shore property damaged, but lots of boats sunk. Preferably early in July. We had the Hatteras for two years. Last year, out of the cold clear, a broker approached me with an offer to buy. Our continued Florida lifestyle was somewhat up in the air, because the two breadwinners hereabouts were about to be offered long-term but temporary assignments they could not refuse in the Washington, D.C., area. So, after being romanced a little, we sold the Hatt for almost precisely what we paid for it. Not bad, after two full years of use. And I mean full years. So, we didn't "make" any money off the Hatt, but we didn't lose any, either. The proceeds were prudently invested. The PWC was won as a prize in a raffle. Never mind that. Why does he have a Bilgeliner in front of his office? Is it a display of "Boating Don'ts?" Yeah, when we were in the boat biz, my father always had one or two "around the back" that he was forced to take in trade. These were sold as "as is, where is." He made sure the engine would start and run. Beyond that, it was up to the prospective buyer to decide if he wanted it. They moved off the lot pretty quickly, partially because my dad's main store was on a highly trafficked commercial route with lots of manufacturing and machining and aerospace plants near by. In those days, workers at these places could fix anything. Actually, Dipper, I don't think my father ever saw a Bayliner. But he still called bumpers bumpers. -- Bayliner wined and dined my father a half dozen times to entice him into becoming its dealer. His operation was the largest small boat dealership in its area of New England, and for 30 years, he was the *exclusive* Evinrude dealer in a densely populated coastal county. He also handled Mercuries. He never liked Bayliners, and referred to them as "jerry-built." From 1947 until he died, he sold more than 500 outboard motors a year from his stores, accounting for a reasonably high percentage of *all* outboards sold in his home state for those years. This is a killer. My father was in the boat business dating back to right after the Big War. When he died and I was looking through his warehouse, I found wrapped in a nuclear fall-out bag (no kidding), a brand-new 1949 Evinrude 8015 50 hp outboard. The motor was a gift to my father from Evinrude for winning some outboard stock utility or hydroplane race. I gave the motor to a friend of my dad's, who worked at the shop as head mechanic. I don't believe he ever used it and I'm sure it is still brand-new. I have no idea who might own it now. He also built boats, and I worked on a few, both wood, glass covered wood and all fiberglass. After he died, however, we sold the biz and I've just been an occasional boat owner. Besides, I worked off and on in the boat business and inherited it when he died. So, as I said, I'm knee-deep in boat heritage. Oh, and I had some friends who died in the service, too, but it wasn't for what they believed in. They were drafted, shipped to Vietnam and came back in body bags. During the war, he turned out experimental brass shell casings for the Army and hopped up outboards for the Navy, which wanted to use them on smaller landing craft. I had photos at one time of my father with Ole Evinrude himself. My mother knew one of Evinrude's wives...she was a minor movie star or singer...I forgot which. Maybe both. Have you ever sailed from San Francisco to Hawaii? I have. Have you ever rounded Cape Horn? I have, twice. Have you ever transited the Panama Canal? I have. Have you owned more than 20 boats in your lifetime? I have. Have you ever sailed large boats competitively? I have. Have you ever been hundreds of miles from land in a powerboat under your command? I have. My father and his chief mechanic once crossed the Atlantic in winter in a 22' boat powered by twin outboards. Yes, it is possible, even the fuel. Got a "fireboat" welcome in NYC. Here are some: Hatteras 43' sportfish Swan 41' racing/cruising sloop Morgan 33 O'Day 30 Cruisers, Inc., Mackinac 22 Century Coronado Bill Luders 16, as sweet a sailboat as evr caught a breeze. Century 19' wood lapstrake with side wheel steering Cruisers, Inc. 18' and 16' wood lapstrakes Wolverines. Molded plywood. Gorgeous. Several. 14,15,17 footers with various Evinrudes Lighting class sailboat Botved Coronet with twin 50 hp Evinrudes. Interesting boat. Aristocraft (a piece of junk...13', fast, held together with spit) Alcort Sunfish Ancarrow Marine Aquiflyer. 22' footer with two Caddy Crusaders. Guaranteed 60 mph. In the late 1950's. Skimmar brand skiff Arkansas Traveler fiberglass bowrider (I think it was a bowrider) Dyer Dhow Su-Mark round bilge runabout, fiberglass Penn Yan runabouts. Wood. Old Town wood and canvas canoe Old Town sailing canoe...different than above canoe Sometime in the early 1960s, I was driving back from Ft. Leonard Wood to Kansas City in a nice old MGA I owned at the time. About halfway home it started raining heavily, I turned on the wipers, and EVERY SINGLE electrical accessory and light in the car flashed on, there was a large popping sound and it all blew out at once. And the car caught fire. I pulled over to the side of the road, watched the fire, removed my license plate and hitched on home. For all I know, that old MGA is still there. Sure was a pretty little car. Puh-lease, Karen. You've not seen nor have I ever posted one example of my professional writings on building structure and the effects on it of hurricane-force winds and seismic activity. I haven't done any of these in at least 10 year, but at the time I was field researching, photographing and writing these reports, they were quite accurate, topical and well-received by their intended audiences. A small fleet of Polar skiffs were purchased by an inshore bait, tackle and boat rental business on the ICW in NE Florida. These boats were not used on open waters. Within 90 days, cracks developed in the liners that also served as the deck over the flotation in the bottom of the hulls. A guide I know, one whose boats and engines are supplied to him by manufacturers, also had a Polar skiff go bad on him for the same reasons -liner and then hull fractures. Harry has claimed to have a 20 yrs his junior beautiful wife, he even put a fake pic of a beautiful woman on a website once claiming it was his "young bride", he may have a wife, although I doubt it, we don't like nor tolerate misogynists for long. Needless to say he's made up many "dramatic" over the top stories over the years about this lie to feed his ego & pretend he's the centre of attention, but as with his boat claims & other crap, there's never once been even a shred of independently verifiable material. After he stalked Madcow in real life, which was most frightening, I do suspect he's very very dangerous & that this "bride" story is his delusional appropriation of his, probably court ordered, treating psychotherapist as "wife" (it seems he was under lock & key for what?? over a year??? a sexual deviant maybe??), have a read of just a small part of his BS & make up your own mind, it's all about free choice:-) 1. She *is* my bride. There are no rules that determine the end of "bride-hood." If I want to refer to her as my bride, I may. 2. As a professional writer, I know the rules of language and am entitled to break them in exercise of my license. 3. I doubt many married women would object to their husbands lovingly referring to them as brides. The connotations are pleasant. 4. She's 20 years younger than I am. Naw. What happened was that I handled a couple of "political" consulting jobs funded out of the DC area to help a few candidates and defeat a couple of ballot issues. Through no fault of mine, we won each of the races, so some of the deep pockets types based in the DC area think I actually *know something* about the process. I was offered a contract that requires my presence in DC quite frequently. My bride also was offered a job up here that represented a significant professional career move. So, we're "up here" much of the time and "down there" the rest of it, except when we're "somewhere else." I've been back to Jax (well, really south of Jax) five times since coming "up here" late last summer and my bride just returned from a business trip there. I swear this is true. Here's a funny. My bride had to fly out to San Diego Wednesday and hitched a ride on her company's corporate jet. They landed in Salina, Kansas, which is due north of Wichita and Skippy's suburb of Derby. So when she gets to San Diego, I get a call asking, "What the hell did you do in Kansas...we didn't fly over one significant patch of water...?" Harry, you make over 500 posts a week to this group and you don't own a boat? And why are you so crabby? Maybe these two factors are related? One has to own something to use it? Hmmm. My bride drives off in her car every day, but she doesn't own it. I'm not crabby. You asked for advice I gave you some. I questioned your wanting to take a very small boat out into high seas and suddenly you turned sour. It's your pot; you are the one stewing in it. No, it is the boat of a friend. It is a 24' ProLine center console with, if I recall, a 225 hp Merc on it. It was a dark and stormy day in January (1997) when we went out, but the sky cleared once we got out to the Gulf Stream. Bride and I caught and released: 1 white marlin 12-15 yellowtail snappers, maybe two pounds each. Pretty, pretty fish. Assorted red snappers 1 amberjack 2 jack crevalle jacks 1 snook Nondescript sharks Did you spend a year as a line psychotherapist at a 650-bed state hospital for forensic patients? Did you spend a year as senior psychotherapist at a county facility for substance abusers? Did you spend two years as chief of therapy at a private, 200-bed facility for the mentally and emotionally ill, at which approximately half the patients were trying to beat drugs or alcohol? Are you currently chief of therapy for a for a multi-practitioner practice of some 825 patients, about a third of which are seeking help for substance abuse problems? Licensed psychotherapist Screening as to character and background for each degree earned On-going screening by faculty while in educational system Interviews and screenings for required years of internships, plus, at the same time, supervision by a licensed professional. Close professional and personal supervision by a licensed therapist for two years of employment before being allowed to apply for licensure Licensure background check, submission of recommendations by licensed practitioners Four hour written examination on state laws Five hour written examination on diagnosis, procedure and practice My wife went through this before becoming licensed. Her final internship was as a psychotherapist at a 600-bed high security state psychiatric hospital where, on a daily basis, she was exposed to more danger than your average soldier. My wife worked for a year as psychotherapist in a Florida 600-bed state mental institution for forensic patients. She saw and treated numerous sexual deviants who do a bit more than expose themselves. Such "treatment" is part of being in the mental health professions. You see, I'm a nautical psychotherapist, and for only $125 an hour, until their health insurance runs out, I help Bayliner owners overcome their feelings of boatable inadequacy. She is a licensed, practicing psychotherapist and often tells me I am the sanest person she sees each day. Which can be taken any way one likes. 1. I'm married to a psychotherapist. Live-in therapy, dontcha know? And much of Freud is passe. My ex-wife surpassed the anti-Christ at least a decade ago. They're not actually "free" moments. I go to boat dealers to round-up Bayliner owners who are trying to find one who will take their own version of flotsam and jetsam in on trade. 1. The address listed is not a home address. It is an office. 2. I have three phone numbers. The phone number listed is not one of mine. It has never been one of mine. The phone number *did* belong to an after-hours message recording hotline my wife maintained for her most mentally disturbed patients. Some of these troubled souls were court-ordered referrals. *Every* call to that phone number--every call--was recorded AND because of the nature of the line, my wife had the ability to alert the telephone company to trace the phone number of every incoming call to that line, *even* if the person making the call tried to block his number. Why, you might ask? Because when you are dealing with suicidal people, they'll liable to tell their therapist over the phone that they are planning to take their life. If the therapist believes the threat is real, she or he will want to dispatch emergency srvices and perhaps the police. In the years my wife has provided this pro bono service, she has never received a threatening or abusive call from a mentally ill patient or court-ordered referral. However, after the ranking Flaming Ass of this newsgroup posted the hotline number in this newsgroup, she received a number of abusive, foul-mouthed AND life-threatening calls. These were mostly directed at me but, of course, I never received them BECAUSE (duh!) the phone is not mine and I've never answered it. Naturally, my wife alerted the authorities, with whom she works closely because of her court-referred patients. The authorities are investigating the callers and have involved both the FBI *and* authorities in other states, including Florida, Georgia, California and Texas. Working with the telephone company, the authorities have been able to trace the origin of virtually every abusive call. And, of course, they have the tape recordings of the abusive messages. Several suspects have been identified. I really don't know what the outcome of all this will be. We haven't had an update in several weeks, nor are either of us here that interested in the sleazeballs that would make such calls. The phone number, of course, is "wired," so when the obnoxious calls came in from the idiot rec.boaters, the numbers were easy enough to trace. The local police handled a complaint, the local telco was involved and when it was discovered the point of origin was out of state, the FBI got involved. At least one of the idiots was caught and prosecuted. As far as I can tell, he has not posted here again |
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#18
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Emergency diesel shutdown
Lawrence James wrote:
LOL what do you do Harry, make this stuff up? "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Snafu wrote: "Harry Krause" wrote in message ... Shut off the fuel supply, block the air intake and keep a load on the engine. You sure as hell don't want to pump CO2 down the airpipe. Harry, I'm curious why you wouldn't want the engine to breathe CO2. Because the CO2 is very, very cold and spraying it down into that hot engine will likely turn the engine into scrap in short order. -- Email sent to is never read. Oh? You wouldn't stop a runaway diesel by cutting off the air supply and shutting off the fuel? What would you do? Stuff rolls of TP in it? As for the CO2, more than one diesel guru has indicated that the temp differential would seriously harm the engine. -- Email sent to is never read. |
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#19
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Emergency diesel shutdown
Harry Krause wrote:
As for the CO2, more than one diesel guru has indicated that the temp differential would seriously harm the engine. Harry, ask those "gurus" if they have ever used CO2 on a "runaway" engine or have even been around one. It doesn't sound like it. Rick |
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#20
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Emergency diesel shutdown
Two stroke Detroit Diesels are equipped with an air dam on the blower intake. The
dam is held open with a solenoid and cam. When the emergency stop switch is activated, the solenoid stem retracts unlatching the cam and and the dam swings down blocking the air intake. I believe the theory is that shutting off the fuel will not shut down the engine until any fuel ahead of the shutoff valve is consumed. In a runaway engine situation, this might allow enough time for the engine to "grenade". Gould 0738 wrote: A paragraph in a book I've been sent to review seems to be in error. Either that, or I'm not properly intuitice about this situation. The paragraph poses a mulitple choice question. "What is the best way to shut down a runaway diesel engine?" One choice is a throw-away. "Cut off the electrical supply." Bzzzt! "Thanks for playing, and we do have some lovely parting gifts for you........" The other two choices: 1. Cut off the fuel supply 2. Cut off the air supply I immediately thought, "the fuel supply. You shut down a diesel by cutting off the fuel." According to the author, the correct answer is supposed to be "Cut off the air supply." The author recommends "discharging a fire extinguisher into the air intake." Well, first off it would need to be the correct type of fire extinguisher. Some extinguishers are charged with halon (which is no longer legal to mfg in the US but is imported or recycled from other extinguishers) and a diesel will run like crazy on halon. And, I'm aware of emergency shut downs that have been accomplished with CO2 extinguishers, etc. I just thought those were cases where it was impractical to cut off the fuel supply. Wouldn't putting a postive stop to the fuel supply from the injector pump be a more certain solution? "Some" air might get sucked into the air intake along with the fire suppressant, maybe enough to allow the engine to cough past the extinguisher discharge and keep running. But, the engine absolutely will not run without fuel. Shutting off the fuel very far upstream wouldn't be a good choice, as an engine can run quite a while on the fuel in lines, filters, etc. Somebody care to agree, disagree, or show me why my preference for fuel shut down would be wrong? http://www.tomorrowsbestseller.com/w...State/book.asp |
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