Harry Krause wrote:
Lawrence James wrote:


LOL what do you do Harry, make this stuff up?


Yes!!! Of course he just makes it up; he's a liar!!!

Here have a look at his prior art. I think I'll entitle it the day the
improbability drive ran away:-)


K

Here's some of Harry's lies for you, just to bring back old memories:-)



I'm doing my part to ease unemployment. I'm hiring another writer
for my


staff. Will be putting the ad on MONSTER.COM and in the Wash Post.


I need more staff because 2004 is a major election year and business
booked to date indicates we'll be drowning in work. We need to hire a
production coordinator, too. It has very little to do with the state of
the economy, other than using it as reason to defeat Republicrap
candidates.


I'm doing my part to ease unemployment. I'm hiring another writer
for my

staff. Will be putting the ad on MONSTER.COM and in the Wash Post.




We have first-class benefits, including a top-of-the-line health
insurance plan, a non-contributory defined-benefit pension plan, a 401k,
and a life insurance policy equal to annual salary. We contribute a
share of profits to the 401k on behalf of the employee. Our employees
pay $4.50 for generic prescriptions and $8.00 for non-generics, but
that's going up next year to $10 and $15. New employees get two weeks
vacation the first year, and that goes to three weeks the third year. In
addition, we have 12 paid holidays and we shut down from noon on
Christmas eve to the day after New Year's Day. We also provide 20 days
of paid sick leave a year. And we have an outside company administering
pre-tax flexible bennies for our employees.
Our fringe benefit package follows the trade union model, except, of
course, for the profit contributions to 401k's. Trade unions are
not-for-profit enterprises.
How do these compare to the bennies at your shop?

Paid? Every year? I call "bull****". With 3 weeks vacation, 12 paid
holidays, and 20 paid sick days that's 47 *paid* days off every year.
Are
they hourly employees? For a "small business", that's the road to
bankruptcy.

Boy...and you had me going there for a minute.

Not quite so simple, though you are trying hard to make it so. Our
business is up because we're on the cusp of an election year. Our
business always goes up in a major election year.
You could say we're going to be doing very well in 2004 because Bush is
such a total failure.


The 20 paid sick days aren't part of the "paid" days off unless those
days are used. None of our people abuses sick leave. In fact, no one as
yet has even come close to using 20 sick days in one year. They're there
in case they're needed.


Oh, I forgot. We also provide everyone with LTD.

The company provides an insurance plan that pays 50% of an employe's
salary for Long Term Disability. Employes have the option of purchasing
an additional 16.66%, bringing their total to 66.66%. The basic benefit
maximum is $4,000 per month. With the buy up, the limit is increased to
$10,000 per month.



Here's just some of his prior lies (in his own words pasted);

I sold off nearly $3,000,000 in new motors and boats, depressing
the new boat
industry in southern Connecticut for an entire season. Everything was
sold...every
cotter pin, every quart of oil, 30 days after I started. For near
full-retail, too.


He had just under $1,000,000 on floor plan with a
syndicate of banks led by National Shawmut of Boston. He had been a
solid customer of that back for more than 20 years and they gave him
great rates.



As far as your other complaints, well, almost every president in
my memory,
and I *remember* Truman, Eisenhower (who cheated on his wife),
Kennedy,
Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan and Bush, lied and
participated in
deceit to one degree or another, and on issues far more important
than who
was giving them blow jobs.

Good lord. I met *every* president in the damned group except
Bush, and I
worked once for his father.



My father used to pray that the north shore of LI Sound would be
hit by
a mild hurricane. No
one injured, no on-shore property damaged, but lots of boats sunk.
Preferably early in July.


We had the Hatteras for two years. Last year, out of the cold
clear, a
broker approached me with an offer to buy. Our continued Florida
lifestyle was somewhat up in the air, because the two breadwinners
hereabouts were about to be offered long-term but temporary
assignments
they could not refuse in the Washington, D.C., area. So, after being
romanced a little, we sold the Hatt for almost precisely what we paid
for it. Not bad, after two full years of use. And I mean full
years. So,
we didn't "make" any money off the Hatt, but we didn't lose any,
either.
The proceeds were prudently invested.

The PWC was won as
a prize in a raffle.



Never mind that. Why does he have a Bilgeliner in front of his
office?
Is it a display of "Boating Don'ts?"
Yeah, when we were in the boat biz, my father always had one or two







"around the back" that he was forced to take in trade. These were
sold
as "as is, where is." He made sure the engine would start and run.
Beyond that, it was up to the prospective buyer to decide if he
wanted
it. They moved off the lot pretty quickly, partially because my dad's
main store was on a highly trafficked commercial route with lots of
manufacturing and machining and aerospace plants near by. In
those days,
workers at these places could fix anything.


Actually, Dipper, I don't think my father ever saw a Bayliner.
But he still
called bumpers bumpers.
--



Bayliner wined and dined my father a half dozen times to
entice him
into becoming its dealer. His operation was the largest small boat
dealership in its area of New England, and for 30 years, he was the
*exclusive* Evinrude dealer in a densely populated coastal county. He
also handled Mercuries. He never liked Bayliners, and referred to
them
as "jerry-built."


From 1947 until he died, he sold more than 500 outboard motors a
year from his stores, accounting for a reasonably high percentage
of *all*
outboards sold in his home state for those years.


This is a killer. My father was in the boat business dating back to
right after
the Big War. When he died and I was looking through his
warehouse, I found
wrapped in a nuclear fall-out bag (no kidding), a brand-new 1949
Evinrude 8015
50 hp outboard. The motor was a gift to my father from Evinrude for
winning some
outboard stock utility or hydroplane race.

I gave the motor to a friend of my dad's, who worked at the shop
as head
mechanic. I don't believe he ever used it and I'm sure it is still
brand-new. I
have no idea who might own it now.



He also built
boats, and I worked on a few, both wood, glass covered wood and
all fiberglass. After he died, however, we sold the biz and I've
just been an occasional boat owner.


Besides, I worked off and on in the
boat business and inherited it when he died. So, as I said, I'm
knee-deep in boat heritage.


Oh,
and I had some friends who died in the service, too, but it
wasn't for
what they believed in. They were drafted, shipped to Vietnam and came
back in body bags.


During the war, he turned out experimental brass shell casings
for the
Army and hopped up outboards for the Navy, which wanted to use
them on
smaller
landing craft. I had photos at one time of my father with Ole
Evinrude
himself.
My mother knew one of Evinrude's wives...she was a minor movie
star or
singer...I forgot which. Maybe both.



Have you ever sailed from San Francisco to Hawaii? I have.
Have you ever rounded Cape Horn? I have, twice.
Have you ever transited the Panama Canal? I have.
Have you owned more than 20 boats in your lifetime? I have.
Have you ever sailed large boats competitively? I have.
Have you ever been hundreds of miles from land in a powerboat
under your
command? I have.


My father and his chief mechanic once crossed the Atlantic in
winter in
a 22'
boat powered by twin outboards. Yes, it is possible, even the
fuel. Got a
"fireboat" welcome in NYC.




Here are some:

Hatteras 43' sportfish
Swan 41' racing/cruising sloop
Morgan 33
O'Day 30
Cruisers, Inc., Mackinac 22
Century Coronado
Bill Luders 16, as sweet a sailboat as ever caught a breeze.
Century 19' wood lapstrake with side wheel steering
Cruisers, Inc. 18' and 16' wood lapstrakes
Wolverines. Molded plywood. Gorgeous. Several. 14,15,17 footers
with various
Evinrudes
Lighting class sailboat
Botved Coronet with twin 50 hp Evinrudes. Interesting boat.
Aristocraft (a piece of junk...13', fast, held together with spit)
Alcort Sunfish
Ancarrow Marine Aquiflyer. 22' footer with two Caddy Crusaders.
Guaranteed 60
mph. In the late 1950's.
Skimmar brand skiff
Arkansas Traveler fiberglass bowrider (I think it was a bowrider)
Dyer Dhow
Su-Mark round bilge runabout, fiberglass
Penn Yan runabouts. Wood.
Old Town wood and canvas canoe
Old Town sailing canoe...different than above canoe



Sometime in the early 1960s, I was driving back from Ft. Leonard
Wood to
Kansas City in a nice old MGA I owned at the time. About halfway
home it
started raining heavily, I turned on the wipers, and EVERY SINGLE
electrical accessory and light in the car flashed on, there was a
large
popping sound and it all blew out at once. And the car caught fire. I
pulled over to the side of the road, watched the fire, removed my
license plate and hitched on home. For all I know, that old MGA
is still
there.

Sure was a pretty little car.


Puh-lease, Karen. You've not sen nor have I ever posted one
example of
my professional writings on building structure and the effects on
it of
hurricane-force winds and seismic activity. I haven't done any of
these
in at least 10 year, but at the time I was field researching,
photographing and writing these reports, they were quite accurate,
topical and well-received by their intended audiences.


A small fleet of Polar skiffs were purchased by an inshore bait,
tackle

and boat rental business on the ICW in NE Florida. These boats
were not
used on open waters. Within 90 days, cracks developed in the
liners that
also served as the deck over the flotation in the bottom of the
hulls. A
guide I know, one whose boats and engines are supplied to him by
manufacturers, also had a Polar skiff go bad on him for the same
reasons
-liner and then hull fractures.







Harry has claimed to have a 20 yrs his junior beautiful wife, he
even put a fake pic of a beautiful woman on a website once claiming it
was his "young bride", he may have a wife, although I doubt it, we don't
like nor tolerate misogynists for long.

Needless to say he's made up many "dramatic" over the top
stories over the years about this lie to feed his ego & pretend he's the
centre of attention, but as with his boat claims & other crap, there's
never once been even a shred of independently verifiable material.

After he stalked Madcow in real life, which was most
frightening, I do suspect he's very very dangerous & that this "bride"
story is his delusional appropriation of his, probably court ordered,
treating psychotherapist as "wife" (it seems he was under lock & key for
what?? over a year??? a sexual deviant maybe??), have a read of just a
small part of his BS & make up your own mind, it's all about free choice:-)


1. She *is* my bride. There are no rules that determine the end of
"bride-hood." If I want to refer to her as my bride, I may.

2. As a professional writer, I know the rules of language and am
entitled to
break them in exercise of my license.

3. I doubt many married women would object to their husbands lovingly
referring to them as brides. The connotations are pleasant.

4. She's 20 years younger than I am.



Naw. What happened was that I handled a couple of "political"
consulting
jobs funded out of the DC area to help a few candidates and defeat a
couple of ballot issues. Through no fault of mine, we won each of the
races, so some of the deep pockets types based in the DC area think I
actually *know something* about the process. I was offered a contract
that requires my presence in DC quite frequently. My bride also was
offered a job up here that represented a significant professional
career
move. So, we're "up here" much of the time and "down there" the rest of
it, except when we're "somewhere else." I've been back to Jax (well,
really south of Jax) five times since coming "up here" late last summer
and my bride just returned from a business trip there.

I swear this is true.


Here's a funny. My bride had to fly out to San Diego Wednesday and
hitched a ride on her company's corporate jet. They landed in Salina,
Kansas, which is due north of Wichita and Skippy's suburb of Derby.

So when she gets to San Diego, I get a call asking, "What the hell did
you do in Kansas...we didn't fly over one significant patch of
water...?"

Harry, you make over 500 posts a week to this group and you don't own
a boat?
And why are you so crabby?
Maybe these two factors are related?



One has to own something to use it? Hmmm. My bride drives off in
her car
every day, but she doesn't own it.

I'm not crabby. You asked for advice I gave you some. I questioned your
wanting to take a very small boat out into high seas and suddenly you
turned sour. It's your pot; you are the one stewing in it.

No, it is the boat of a friend. It is a 24' ProLine center console
with,
if I recall, a 225 hp Merc on it. It was a dark and stormy day in
January (1997) when we went out, but the sky cleared once we got out to
the Gulf Stream.


Bride and I caught and released:

1 white marlin
12-15 yellowtail snappers, maybe two pounds each. Pretty, pretty fish.
Assorted red snappers
1 amberjack
2 jack crevalle jacks
1 snook
Nondescript sharks

Did you spend a year as a line psychotherapist at a 650-bed state
hospital for forensic patients?
Did you spend a year as senior psychotherapist at a county facility for
substance abusers?
Did you spend two years as chief of therapy at a private, 200-bed
facility for the mentally and emotionally ill, at which approximately
half the patients were trying to beat drugs or alcohol?
Are you currently chief of therapy for a for a multi-practitioner
practice of some 825 patients, about a third of which are seeking help
for substance abuse problems?


Licensed psychotherapist
Screening as to character and background for each degree earned
On-going screening by faculty while in educational system
Interviews and screenings for required years of internships, plus,
at the same
time, supervision by a licensed professional.
Close professional and personal supervision by a licensed therapist
for two years
of employment before being allowed to apply for licensure
Licensure background check, submission of recommendations by licensed
practitioners
Four hour written examination on state laws
Five hour written examination on diagnosis, procedure and practice

My wife went through this before becoming licensed. Her final
internship was as a
psychotherapist at a 600-bed high security state psychiatric
hospital where, on a
daily basis, she was exposed to more danger than your average soldier.

My wife worked for a year as psychotherapist in a Florida 600-bed state
mental institution for forensic patients. She saw and treated numerous
sexual deviants who do a bit more than expose themselves. Such
"treatment"
is part of being in the mental health professions.


You see, I'm a nautical psychotherapist, and for only $125 an hour,
until their health insurance runs out, I help Bayliner owners
overcome their
feelings of boatable inadequacy.


She is a licensed, practicing
psychotherapist and often tells me I am the sanest person she sees each
day. Which can be taken any way one likes.


1. I'm married to a psychotherapist. Live-in therapy, dontcha know?
And much of
Freud is passe.

My ex-wife surpassed the anti-Christ at least a decade ago.

They're not actually "free" moments. I go to boat dealers to round-up
Bayliner owners who are trying to find one who will take their own
version of flotsam and jetsam in on trade.


1. The address listed is not a home address. It is an office.

2. I have three phone numbers. The phone number listed is not one of
mine. It has never been one of mine. The phone number *did* belong
to an
after-hours message recording hotline my wife maintained for her most
mentally disturbed patients. Some of these troubled souls were
court-ordered referrals. *Every* call to that phone number--every
call--was recorded AND because of the nature of the line, my wife had
the ability to alert the telephone company to trace the phone number of
every incoming call to that line, *even* if the person making the call
tried to block his number.

Why, you might ask? Because when you are dealing with suicidal people,
they'll liable to tell their therapist over the phone that they are
planning to take their life. If the therapist believes the threat is
real, she or he will want to dispatch emergency srvices and perhaps the
police.

In the years my wife has provided this pro bono service, she has never
received a threatening or abusive call from a mentally ill patient or
court-ordered referral. However, after the ranking Flaming Ass of this
newsgroup posted the hotline number in this newsgroup, she received a
number of abusive, foul-mouthed AND life-threatening calls. These were
mostly directed at me but, of course, I never received them BECAUSE
(duh!) the phone is not mine and I've never answered it.
Naturally, my wife alerted the authorities, with whom she works closely
because of her court-referred patients. The authorities are
investigating the callers and have involved both the FBI *and*
authorities in other states, including Florida, Georgia, California and
Texas. Working with the telephone company, the authorities have been
able to trace the origin of virtually every abusive call. And, of
course, they have the tape recordings of the abusive messages. Several
suspects have been identified. I really don't know what the outcome of
all this will be. We haven't had an update in several weeks, nor are
either of us here that interested in the sleazeballs that would make
such calls.


The phone number, of course, is "wired," so when the obnoxious
calls came in
from the idiot rec.boaters, the numbers were easy enough to trace.
The local
police handled a complaint, the local telco was involved and when
it was
discovered the point of origin was out of state, the FBI got
involved. At
least one of the idiots was caught and prosecuted. As far as I can
tell, he
has not posted here again

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Snafu wrote:


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...

Shut off the fuel supply, block the air intake and keep a load on the
engine. You sure as hell don't want to pump CO2 down the airpipe.

Harry, I'm curious why you wouldn't want the engine to breathe CO2.


Because the CO2 is very, very cold and spraying it down into that hot
engine will likely turn the engine into scrap in short order.




--
Email sent to is never read.



Oh? You wouldn't stop a runaway diesel by cutting off the air supply and
shutting off the fuel? What would you do? Stuff rolls of TP in it?

As for the CO2, more than one diesel guru has indicated that the temp
differential would seriously harm the engine.

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 22:35:07 -0500, Harry Krause
wrote:



Oh? You wouldn't stop a runaway diesel by cutting off the air supply and
shutting off the fuel? What would you do? Stuff rolls of TP in it?

As for the CO2, more than one diesel guru has indicated that the temp
differential would seriously harm the engine.

Ever hear of nitrous? Also extremely cold when discharged from a
pressurized bottle.

And don't spout off about all of the engines that grenade from nitrous
- it's not the temp differential.

(Gould 0738) wrote in message ...
A paragraph in a book I've been sent to review seems to be in error.

Either that, or I'm not properly intuitice about this situation.

The paragraph poses a mulitple choice question. "What is the best way to shut
down a runaway diesel engine?"

One choice is a throw-away. "Cut off the electrical supply." Bzzzt! "Thanks for
playing, and we do have some lovely parting gifts for you........"

The other two choices:

1. Cut off the fuel supply

2. Cut off the air supply

I immediately thought, "the fuel supply. You shut down a diesel by cutting off
the fuel."

According to the author, the correct answer is supposed to be "Cut off the air
supply." The author recommends "discharging a fire extinguisher into the air
intake."

Well, first off it would need to be the correct type of fire extinguisher. Some
extinguishers are charged with halon (which is no longer legal to mfg in the US
but is imported or recycled from other extinguishers) and a diesel will run
like crazy on halon.

And, I'm aware of emergency shut downs that have been accomplished with CO2
extinguishers, etc. I just thought those were cases where it was impractical to
cut off the fuel supply.

Wouldn't putting a postive stop to the fuel supply from the injector pump be a
more certain solution? "Some" air might get sucked into the air intake along
with the fire suppressant, maybe enough to allow the engine to cough past the
extinguisher discharge and keep running. But, the engine absolutely will not
run without fuel.

Shutting off the fuel very far upstream wouldn't be a good choice, as an engine
can run quite a while on the fuel in lines, filters, etc.

Somebody care to agree, disagree, or show me why my preference for fuel shut
down would be wrong?




http://www.tomorrowsbestseller.com/w...State/book.asp

When a diesel engine has run away one of two things has probably
happened. You may have an injection pump failure and the pump is
jammed in the wide open position. In this case the engine will
normally only run up to as high as the governor is set at. The engine
can be shut down by shutting off the fuel supply.

Or, the worst case, on old engines, the piston rings are leaking oil
up into the cylinders and the oil is being burned instead of the fuel.
Shutting off the fuel supply will not shut the engine down and the
engine will continue to accelerate until it runs out of oil and the
engine binds up, or it "comes apart". The only way to shut the engine
down is to cut off the air supply. A few plastic bags over the intake
might work, but don't be surprised if they just get sucked in. I had a
car diesel run away like this. The car just began to accelerate on
it's own and was blowing all kinds of smoke. I had a manual
transmission and stalled it out by keeping it in gear and hitting the
brakes until it stalled. It burned up about half the engine oil in
about 30 seconds.
On a boat it takes "some big ones" to jump down into the engine room
with this screaming engine and try to shut it down. And it's over
pretty quick. Some older boats had air shut down's on them that will
do the trick.

Karl,

Chuck's boat, like many if not most in this forum, does not suffer the
indignity of housing a GM diesel. The shutdown procedures vary according
to engine type and manufacturer and even installation so what I write
may or may not apply to an engine with a GM on the header tank.

The oil seals on the GM blower are simple lip seals and the greatest
differential they could ever see is 14.7 psi. That is far from a
damaging pressure. I have several GM service manuals and none of them
say a word about damaging seals by testing the air door shutdown.

A "runaway" engine is one which continues to run after the normal
shutdown devices have been selected to "stop" and is increasing in
speed. It is an emergency condition.

An engine that does not stop but continues to run at idle speed or
slower is probably not an emergency and may be dealt with as an
inconvenience. It does not require heroic measures to secure the engine.

CO2 will not harm an engine. A halon fire extinguisher will produce
poisonous gas (phosgene) and contaminate the lube oil with phosphoric acid.

If the engine is a true "runaway" the best option for most small boat
operators is to secure the fuel from a safe position away from the
engine and standby with fire extinguishers and a radio. Considering the
limited access to most small boat engines and the effect of the loudly
accelerating engine on the psyche of the boat operator there is very
little chance that many readers - myself included - will have a very
great desire to bend over that engine and try to unscrew injector pump
vents or open the high pressure side of the fuel system (which is very
foolish anyway) in order to stop the engine. Chances are the cause of a
true runaway is not fuel related so removing the fuel may not do much to
alleviate the problem. The governor would have already reduced fuel to
minimum unless the governor is the problem and this is no time for
intensive troubleshooting.

If you feel you can safely approach the engine you can attempt to block
the intake with rags, a jacket, a rain slicker, anything you can wrap
around the intake filter or screen. This will probably reduce the speed
considerably and give you time to think about your options. If the
engine is running on lube oil but has been slowed enough to work around
it go ahead and add oil, there is no point in just standing there
watching it destroy itself completely.

If you have slowed it down and have a fire extinguisher available, not
dry chem, go ahead and squirt it down the intake. Don't be modest about
this, it will take a lot of CO2 applied very quickly. If that doesn't
stop the engine make sure you re-cover the intake to restrict the air
available. If the engine continues to run at all it will slowly build up
so much oil in the cylinders (if that is what it is running on) that it
will stop eventually.

If the engine simply does not stop when the key is turned but continues
to run at idle or slower there are several steps that can be taken.

Put the boat in gear, if it is running at less than idle that might
overload it enough to stop the engine.

Shut off the fuel and wait until the engine quits. Nothing wrong with
this, it won't hurt the engine and is no cause for panic or
handwringing. If you are at the dock and the engine is idling, put it in
gear and run it up a bit if possible, that will burn off the fuel
faster. If you are not at the dock why do you want it shutdown? Maybe
this is a sign you should head for a maintenance dock or someplace where
loss of power will not create headaches.

If you can reach the engine easily, try tapping the shutdown solenoid
mounted on the injector pump with the plastic end of a good sized
screwdriver. Professional marine engineers use a hammer but calibrate it
first which you may not have time to do. If that doesn't work try moving
the lever on the injector pump. Which lever? I don't know what you have
so just move any lever you see there and if the engine speeds up, move
it the other way. It may stop the engine. There may be a separate
shutdown lever near the throttle lever on the pump.

The bottom line of this is, if you have a true runaway, keep away. If it
just won't stop and you are not inclined to work on a running engine,
park the boat somewhere safe, shut the fuel off and call a mechanic at
your convenience.

Rick

ospam (F330 GT) wrote in message ...
A paragraph in a book I've been sent to review seems to be in error.

Either that, or I'm not properly intuitice about this situation.

The paragraph poses a mulitple choice question. "What is the best way to shut
down a runaway diesel engine?"

One choice is a throw-away. "Cut off the electrical supply." Bzzzt! "Thanks
for
playing, and we do have some lovely parting gifts for you........"

The other two choices:

1. Cut off the fuel supply

2. Cut off the air supply

I immediately thought, "the fuel supply. You shut down a diesel by cutting
off
the fuel."

According to the author, the correct answer is supposed to be "Cut off the
air
supply." The author recommends "discharging a fire extinguisher into the air
intake."

Well, first off it would need to be the correct type of fire extinguisher.
Some
extinguishers are charged with halon (which is no longer legal to mfg in the
US
but is imported or recycled from other extinguishers) and a diesel will run
like crazy on halon.

And, I'm aware of emergency shut downs that have been accomplished with CO2
extinguishers, etc. I just thought those were cases where it was impractical
to
cut off the fuel supply.

Wouldn't putting a postive stop to the fuel supply from the injector pump be
a
more certain solution? "Some" air might get sucked into the air intake along
with the fire suppressant, maybe enough to allow the engine to cough past the
extinguisher discharge and keep running. But, the engine absolutely will not
run without fuel.

Shutting off the fuel very far upstream wouldn't be a good choice, as an
engine
can run quite a while on the fuel in lines, filters, etc.

Somebody care to agree, disagree, or show me why my preference for fuel shut
down would be wrong?







I've been told that in certain circumstances diesel engines can run on the oil
in the crankcase being sucked into the cylinders, particularly Detroit Diesels.
If this is true, that would make the air shutoff the only correct answer.

All of the Detroits I have had experience with (on trucks and
generators, not boats) cut off the air for emergency shut down. I
spring loaded plate dropped over the intake when you pulled the
emergency shut down lever. They are the only ones I recall having a
dedicated emergency shut down mechanism.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...

Well, first off it would need to be the correct type of fire extinguisher.
Some
extinguishers are charged with halon (which is no longer legal to mfg in
the US
but is imported or recycled from other extinguishers) and a diesel will
run
like crazy on halon.

How will it do that?


And, I'm aware of emergency shut downs that have been accomplished with
CO2
extinguishers, etc. I just thought those were cases where it was
impractical to
cut off the fuel supply.

I would suspect that in an emergency situation you don't have time to be
considering which method is best. If you are going to set up an emergency
shutdown sceanario, use the method that is known to work in all situations.



Wouldn't putting a postive stop to the fuel supply from the injector pump
be a
more certain solution?

Shutting off the fuel will eventually shut it down. The farther away the
shut off valve is from the injection pump the longer the engine will run
after you close the valve. It might not be a wise idea to reach across a
runaway engine to work a valve at the injection pump, you certainly wouldn't
want to be that close if the engine self destructed. If the seas are rough
and/or the engine is overheating (a possible reason it has gone into
runaway) you may not be able to safely get that near the engine.

A CO2 extinguisher can be aimed at the intake from a reasonable distance.
Even if you displaced only 50% of the air I would expect it to throttle the
engine enough so that it lost enough power to break the run away cycle.

I had a diesel car one time that would occasionally go into run away. When
this happened, I could turn the key off and it would keep on going, which
meant that the solenoid valve either didn't work or wasn't in the path of
the current fuel supply. The gas pedal didn't have any effect one way or the
other. The engine was also billowing clouds of black smoke.

I assumed that it was somehow running off crankcase fumes. This problem
never occurred at low power situations, only after long stretches of freeway
running. If it was a problem in the injection pump then it was somehow
bypassing both the fuel metering (gas pedal) and electric shut off valve. I
could easily stop the run away by simply stepping on the brake and loading
the engine down until the RPMs dropped significantly, then it would return
to normal.

Considering my experience, I would be most concerned about the case of the
engine running off of an alternate fuel supply. Shutting down the air supply
is the only option. It would be a good dual purpose device as well,
suitable for shutting down run away engines or putting out a fire. Rig it
with a release cable to the helm station and you wouldn't need to enter the
engine room to do either.


Rod

Cutting off the air supply is a good choice. It was not one we were
presented with in the original post. Cutting off the fuel is often hard to
do quickly.

Firing a co2 extinguisher is also ok. Lets talk about the physics involved.
Even presuming your co2 stays cold enough to have an effect which I will
allow you. The moving parts in the engine are the ones that have to most
difficulty transfering heat energy. This is because the have small
lubricated contact surfaces to the non-moving parts. The ones that your
cold slug of co2 are going to encounter are the valves and the pistons.
Valves exchange heat through the valve guides, the valve springs, and the
oil. Normally excessive heat is being transfered from the valves to these
other items. But in this case we will allow that the co2 has cooled the
valve below normal operating temp. The cooled valve will contract. This
will increase the clearance in the valve guide and shorten the valve stem.
Neither of these is going to result in damage. Next stop is the combustion
chamber and the top of the piston. Again the moving part, in this case the
piston, is going to have the most problems with heat transfer. Pistons are
only able to transfer heat through the rings, the wrist pin, and the oil.
Again allowing that your co2 has cooled the piston lower than normal
operating temp. The piston will contract increasing the clearance between
the piston and the cylinder wall. This is not going to cause any damage
either. The head and block are simply going to contain far far too much
heat energy for your co2 to have a noticable effect. And the head and block
also have smaller contraction and expansion rates for the same temp change
as the valves and pistons. Even bringing other parts into the mix you are
always going to have a situation where you have cooled the moving part and
increased the clearances. And you simply are not going to be able to cool
anything down enough to result in a loss of material strength. This is why
you can't damage an engine with co2.


"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Lawrence James wrote:

LOL what do you do Harry, make this stuff up?

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Snafu wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
Shut off the fuel supply, block the air intake and keep a load on
the
engine. You sure as hell don't want to pump CO2 down the airpipe.

Harry, I'm curious why you wouldn't want the engine to breathe CO2.


Because the CO2 is very, very cold and spraying it down into that hot
engine will likely turn the engine into scrap in short order.




--
Email sent to is never read.



Oh? You wouldn't stop a runaway diesel by cutting off the air supply and
shutting off the fuel? What would you do? Stuff rolls of TP in it?

As for the CO2, more than one diesel guru has indicated that the temp
differential would seriously harm the engine.

--
Email sent to is never read.

but is imported or recycled from other extinguishers) and a diesel will
run
like crazy on halon.

How will it do that?

My fire extinguisher expert at Western Fire and Safety has assured me that this
is so.
They do fire suppression systems aboard commercial fish boats, more than
pleasure boats, but the principle is the same.

How will it do that? Apparently, if Halon is compressed enough it will go
"boom" :-)

Karl Denninger wrote:

Halon won't shut a diesel down at all. It will simply burn the Halon and
contaminate the oil while producing the phosgene. The Halon (and its later
cousins) manufacturers are well-aware of this which is why they require
an electrical shutdown system to be installed for Halon bottles on boats
with Diesel engines.

Misleading. Halon will not burn, the engine will not burn halon.

Engine rooms fitted with CO2 flooding systems also require that all
ventilation be secured and the engines stopped before releasing the gas.
These are fire extinguishing systems, not emergency diesel engine
shutdown systems.

The reason for an engine shutdown system in engine rooms fitted with a
fixed halon extinguishing system is due to the fact that the quantity of
halon available is calculated to provide a 5 percent concentration of
halon when discharged. The system should include a timer that allows for
the engine to stop before the gas is released or prevent its release
while the engine is still running. Because the halon gas mixes with the
atmosphere rather than displacing it as CO2 does there is still enough
O2 remaining in the atmosphere of the flooded space to support life and
allow a diesel to run.

This 5 percent concentration is sufficient to prevent the chemical
reaction we call fire without killing people in the space. The engine
will still run long enough on a 5 percent concentration to completely
remove all halon and therefore prevent the system from extinguishing a
fire. The required shutdown system is to insure that the space remains
at the required concentration.

If you have enough halon, such as in the form of a large portable
extinguisher like a CO2 unit, it will shut down the engine just as CO2
will. If you have an equal size supply of halon as CO2 and apply it
directly to the engine air intake just as you would CO2 it will stop the
engine with equal certainty as CO2.

Rick

but is imported or recycled from other extinguishers) and a diesel will
run
like crazy on halon.

How will it do that?

My fire extinguisher expert at Western Fire and Safety has assured me that
this
is so.
They do fire suppression systems aboard commercial fish boats, more than
pleasure boats, but the principle is the same.

How will it do that? Apparently, if Halon is compressed enough it will go
"boom" :-)


See Rick's comment. Far better. :-)