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Interesting batteries
Double the Power, or Half the Space?
We recently dropped by Boat Electric (on Westlake Avenue in Seattle) to visit with Harris Allen, of Meridian Marine Progressive Products. Meridian Marine Progressive Products is the marine distribution and marketing arm of the Northstar Battery Company. Boat Electric has been selling the Meridian Marine batteries, and business is so brisk that employees have resorted hooking the Meridian batteries on display together with zip ties. "We had a lot of people tearing apart the display to get to the batteries," said a Boat Electric spokesperson. "We were having to rebuild the display all the time, and we would really rather sell a battery out of our store room." We wanted to know why these batteries are becoming so popular with NW boaters, and Harris Allen proved to be very informative. Harris shared a general outline of the company history and the specific battery technology employed in the Meridian Marine battery. ***** What can you tell us about the company itself? "Northstar Battery was formed three or three and a half years ago by an international group of battery company executives. Many of them were from Europe. They had an idea that they wanted to build a better battery. They went out and raised $60-million in venture capital, and built the most advanced battery-manufacturing plant in the world in Springfield, Missouri. They built the plant in Missouri because the two largest lead mines in the US are located there." "The founders realized that if they were going to build an improved battery, they would have to go outside the traditional manufacturing processes used by all the other manufacturers. A new approach was required, and they adapted technology from aerospace, automotive, and other industries to get the robotics that they needed to assemble these batteries." With all of the batteries on the market, why would a Northwest boater want to specifically consider yours? "One of the most remarkable things about the Meridian Marine battery is that my unit with amp-hour capacity equivalent with a traditional 8D battery is only about half the size. It is slightly taller, but our battery is only 5-inches wide. We can effectively put two of these in the space of a single 8D. In fact, many people put two new Meridians into the same battery box that previously held only one 8D. I ask prospective customers whether they would prefer to recover half the space currently used by batteries, or enjoy double the power. It's a win-win decision, no matter how a boater decides." "The Meridian Marine battery is a premium product. They cost a lot more to manufacture, and to buy, than some battery purchased off the shelf in an auto parts store. Although the initial cost is higher than an off-the-shelf 8D, the Meridian battery will have a service life that is almost four times as long as the cheaper product." Is it correct to assume that your batteries utilize AGM technology? "Yes, that's correct. You can call it AGM, for 'absorbed glass mat', but it is also referred to as a 'starved electrolyte' battery. Layers of lead plates are separated by layers of glass mat, and the mat is soaked with electrolyte. Once assembled into a bundle, the alternating lead and glass bundles are compressed as part of the manufacturing process. Most manufacturers achieve about a ten- percent compression. Through the use of robotics, Northstar Battery has been able to come up with over a thirty- percent compression. This means that we can get a huge amount of plate area into a smaller space. The critical consideration is the amount of plate area in contact with the electrolyte, so the bundle can be compressed without loss of capacity." "Another advantage of a Meridian Battery is that if you should split the case, the battery isn't going to leak. All the electrolyte is contained in the glass mat." Isn't it true that an AGM battery can be installed in any position, except maybe upside down? "You can't install one upside down. You'll notice on these particular batteries that there's a unique feature. Any sealed battery has valves in it, and falls into a class we call 'valve regulated lead-acid batteries'. If you reach a case pressure of, (in our case at least) 5 psi then the vents open. It takes a serious overcharge to reach a case pressure of 5 psi, but when you do you're venting hydrogen gas. On our particular battery, if the valves should ever open the gas will go into this vent chamber, here on the top of the battery. The vent chamber is an excellent feature, and we go a step beyond that. We have two plastic nipples on the vent chamber so we can install plastic tubing. We can use the tubing to daisy chain the batteries together, and then drain the gasses overboard anywhere we want." "In Fort Lauderdale, we do a lot of Feadships and other big boats. Most of them fall under SOLAS, GMDSS requirements which means they have to have a back-up battery bank for their electronics. Typically, that's under the helm, where all the electronics are. When we have batteries under the electronics, we don't want to run the risk of the battery charger going crazy and venting corrosive gas onto the electronics. In a case like that, we use the remote venting feature and vent the batteries out the side of the boat. Are the vent tube fittings fairly well exclusive to the Meridian Marine product line? "Yes, it's a very unique solution. It allows us to do rack mount installations. Rather than have batteries stuck all around the engine room, we just weld up a stainless rack, install a number of batteries on their sides, and use a single vent for all of them." Do Meridians make good starting batteries? "Yes, because of the compression factor we have a tremendous amount of plate area in the battery and that gives them excellent starting power. Take a look at our 115-amp model for example. Most people would consider that a very compact battery, it's 4 ¼ inches wide, and 15 inches long. We just did a refit on a 150-foot Trinity, with a 53-litre, 1800 HP, 3512 Cat. The starting bank consists of two of these batteries combined to create 24-volts." "Take a look at our 210-amp model. As you can see, it is rated at 1830 cold cranking amps, and most 8D's are rated at about 1200. We have about 50% more cranking power, in a battery that occupies only half the space." What are the sizes most commonly purchased by pleasure boaters? "We just follow the standard marine ratings. We sell a lot of 115-amp, 130-amp, and 210-amp batteries to boaters. By putting two of those 210-amp batteries into a 8D box, all of a sudden you have created a 420-amp battery. Most of the 8D's are 200, 210 or 225 amps, depending upon who built the battery. The term 8D refers to case size. Our 210-amp battery is sort of in the middle, capacity wise, with most of the 8D batteries on the market, but it's only half the size. Putting two of these into the space traditionally occupied by an 8D creates a battery that is about double most 8D units. That's why I ask people whether they would prefer to have twice the power, or only use up half the space." How about deep-cycle durability? "Consider the typical, off-the-shelf flooded cell 8D battery. At 50% discharge, you're looking at 200 to 250 recharge cycles before that battery is done. With a Meridian, you can get over 800 cycles from 50% discharge. The deeper you discharge a battery, the fewer cycles you are going to get. A standard 8D discharged to 80% would be lucky to survive more than about 100 cycles. A Meridian discharged to 80% will last for over 500 recharges." How has the marine market responded to your product so far? "Well, Boat Electric is a good example. They waited a little while and studied the idea before they turned in their first stocking order. Sales in the Pacific Northwest have exploded, with batteries all but flying out the door. Boaters love these. We're now the OEM battery for Hinckley, Palmer Johnson, Direktor Shipyards, Lyman Morse, and nearly all the high-speed, custom sport fish guys. *** While most Pacific Northwest boaters won't be purchasing a Hinckley in the immediate future, it's fun to realize that our boats could rather realistically have a battery in common with such a prestigious craft. Next time the batteries wear out, it might be well to consider a newly relevant question when replacing them, "Do I want to use half the space, or enjoy double the power?" |
"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Double the Power, or Half the Space? We recently dropped by Boat Electric (on Westlake Avenue in Seattle) to visit with Harris Allen, of Meridian Marine Progressive Products. Meridian Marine Progressive Products is the marine distribution and marketing arm of the Northstar Battery Company. Boat Electric has been selling the Meridian Marine batteries, and business is so brisk that employees have resorted hooking the Meridian batteries on display together with zip ties. "We had a lot of people tearing apart the display to get to the batteries," said a Boat Electric spokesperson. "We were having to rebuild the display all the time, and we would really rather sell a battery out of our store room." We wanted to know why these batteries are becoming so popular with NW boaters, and Harris Allen proved to be very informative. Harris shared a general outline of the company history and the specific battery technology employed in the Meridian Marine battery. ***** What can you tell us about the company itself? "Northstar Battery was formed three or three and a half years ago by an international group of battery company executives. Many of them were from Europe. They had an idea that they wanted to build a better battery. They went out and raised $60-million in venture capital, and built the most advanced battery-manufacturing plant in the world in Springfield, Missouri. They built the plant in Missouri because the two largest lead mines in the US are located there." "The founders realized that if they were going to build an improved battery, they would have to go outside the traditional manufacturing processes used by all the other manufacturers. A new approach was required, and they adapted technology from aerospace, automotive, and other industries to get the robotics that they needed to assemble these batteries." With all of the batteries on the market, why would a Northwest boater want to specifically consider yours? "One of the most remarkable things about the Meridian Marine battery is that my unit with amp-hour capacity equivalent with a traditional 8D battery is only about half the size. It is slightly taller, but our battery is only 5-inches wide. We can effectively put two of these in the space of a single 8D. In fact, many people put two new Meridians into the same battery box that previously held only one 8D. I ask prospective customers whether they would prefer to recover half the space currently used by batteries, or enjoy double the power. It's a win-win decision, no matter how a boater decides." "The Meridian Marine battery is a premium product. They cost a lot more to manufacture, and to buy, than some battery purchased off the shelf in an auto parts store. Although the initial cost is higher than an off-the-shelf 8D, the Meridian battery will have a service life that is almost four times as long as the cheaper product." Is it correct to assume that your batteries utilize AGM technology? "Yes, that's correct. You can call it AGM, for 'absorbed glass mat', but it is also referred to as a 'starved electrolyte' battery. Layers of lead plates are separated by layers of glass mat, and the mat is soaked with electrolyte. Once assembled into a bundle, the alternating lead and glass bundles are compressed as part of the manufacturing process. Most manufacturers achieve about a ten- percent compression. Through the use of robotics, Northstar Battery has been able to come up with over a thirty- percent compression. This means that we can get a huge amount of plate area into a smaller space. The critical consideration is the amount of plate area in contact with the electrolyte, so the bundle can be compressed without loss of capacity." "Another advantage of a Meridian Battery is that if you should split the case, the battery isn't going to leak. All the electrolyte is contained in the glass mat." Isn't it true that an AGM battery can be installed in any position, except maybe upside down? "You can't install one upside down. You'll notice on these particular batteries that there's a unique feature. Any sealed battery has valves in it, and falls into a class we call 'valve regulated lead-acid batteries'. If you reach a case pressure of, (in our case at least) 5 psi then the vents open. It takes a serious overcharge to reach a case pressure of 5 psi, but when you do you're venting hydrogen gas. On our particular battery, if the valves should ever open the gas will go into this vent chamber, here on the top of the battery. The vent chamber is an excellent feature, and we go a step beyond that. We have two plastic nipples on the vent chamber so we can install plastic tubing. We can use the tubing to daisy chain the batteries together, and then drain the gasses overboard anywhere we want." "In Fort Lauderdale, we do a lot of Feadships and other big boats. Most of them fall under SOLAS, GMDSS requirements which means they have to have a back-up battery bank for their electronics. Typically, that's under the helm, where all the electronics are. When we have batteries under the electronics, we don't want to run the risk of the battery charger going crazy and venting corrosive gas onto the electronics. In a case like that, we use the remote venting feature and vent the batteries out the side of the boat. Are the vent tube fittings fairly well exclusive to the Meridian Marine product line? "Yes, it's a very unique solution. It allows us to do rack mount installations. Rather than have batteries stuck all around the engine room, we just weld up a stainless rack, install a number of batteries on their sides, and use a single vent for all of them." Do Meridians make good starting batteries? "Yes, because of the compression factor we have a tremendous amount of plate area in the battery and that gives them excellent starting power. Take a look at our 115-amp model for example. Most people would consider that a very compact battery, it's 4 ¼ inches wide, and 15 inches long. We just did a refit on a 150-foot Trinity, with a 53-litre, 1800 HP, 3512 Cat. The starting bank consists of two of these batteries combined to create 24-volts." "Take a look at our 210-amp model. As you can see, it is rated at 1830 cold cranking amps, and most 8D's are rated at about 1200. We have about 50% more cranking power, in a battery that occupies only half the space." What are the sizes most commonly purchased by pleasure boaters? "We just follow the standard marine ratings. We sell a lot of 115-amp, 130-amp, and 210-amp batteries to boaters. By putting two of those 210-amp batteries into a 8D box, all of a sudden you have created a 420-amp battery. Most of the 8D's are 200, 210 or 225 amps, depending upon who built the battery. The term 8D refers to case size. Our 210-amp battery is sort of in the middle, capacity wise, with most of the 8D batteries on the market, but it's only half the size. Putting two of these into the space traditionally occupied by an 8D creates a battery that is about double most 8D units. That's why I ask people whether they would prefer to have twice the power, or only use up half the space." How about deep-cycle durability? "Consider the typical, off-the-shelf flooded cell 8D battery. At 50% discharge, you're looking at 200 to 250 recharge cycles before that battery is done. With a Meridian, you can get over 800 cycles from 50% discharge. The deeper you discharge a battery, the fewer cycles you are going to get. A standard 8D discharged to 80% would be lucky to survive more than about 100 cycles. A Meridian discharged to 80% will last for over 500 recharges." How has the marine market responded to your product so far? "Well, Boat Electric is a good example. They waited a little while and studied the idea before they turned in their first stocking order. Sales in the Pacific Northwest have exploded, with batteries all but flying out the door. Boaters love these. We're now the OEM battery for Hinckley, Palmer Johnson, Direktor Shipyards, Lyman Morse, and nearly all the high-speed, custom sport fish guys. *** While most Pacific Northwest boaters won't be purchasing a Hinckley in the immediate future, it's fun to realize that our boats could rather realistically have a battery in common with such a prestigious craft. Next time the batteries wear out, it might be well to consider a newly relevant question when replacing them, "Do I want to use half the space, or enjoy double the power?" Nice post Chuck. How much are they retailing for? Having to deal with four lead plate group 31 batteries in my old boat was quite a chore and required maintenance every other week. |
Thanks for writing & posting this, Chuck. Very interesting reading. I am
a fan of old fashioned flooded cell batteries, but these are worth looking into. Fair Skies Doug King Gould 0738 wrote: Double the Power, or Half the Space? We recently dropped by Boat Electric (on Westlake Avenue in Seattle) to visit with Harris Allen, of Meridian Marine Progressive Products. Meridian Marine Progressive Products is the marine distribution and marketing arm of the Northstar Battery Company. Boat Electric has been selling the Meridian Marine batteries, and business is so brisk that employees have resorted hooking the Meridian batteries on display together with zip ties. "We had a lot of people tearing apart the display to get to the batteries," said a Boat Electric spokesperson. "We were having to rebuild the display all the time, and we would really rather sell a battery out of our store room." We wanted to know why these batteries are becoming so popular with NW boaters, and Harris Allen proved to be very informative. Harris shared a general outline of the company history and the specific battery technology employed in the Meridian Marine battery. ***** What can you tell us about the company itself? "Northstar Battery was formed three or three and a half years ago by an international group of battery company executives. Many of them were from Europe. They had an idea that they wanted to build a better battery. They went out and raised $60-million in venture capital, and built the most advanced battery-manufacturing plant in the world in Springfield, Missouri. They built the plant in Missouri because the two largest lead mines in the US are located there." "The founders realized that if they were going to build an improved battery, they would have to go outside the traditional manufacturing processes used by all the other manufacturers. A new approach was required, and they adapted technology from aerospace, automotive, and other industries to get the robotics that they needed to assemble these batteries." With all of the batteries on the market, why would a Northwest boater want to specifically consider yours? "One of the most remarkable things about the Meridian Marine battery is that my unit with amp-hour capacity equivalent with a traditional 8D battery is only about half the size. It is slightly taller, but our battery is only 5-inches wide. We can effectively put two of these in the space of a single 8D. In fact, many people put two new Meridians into the same battery box that previously held only one 8D. I ask prospective customers whether they would prefer to recover half the space currently used by batteries, or enjoy double the power. It's a win-win decision, no matter how a boater decides." "The Meridian Marine battery is a premium product. They cost a lot more to manufacture, and to buy, than some battery purchased off the shelf in an auto parts store. Although the initial cost is higher than an off-the-shelf 8D, the Meridian battery will have a service life that is almost four times as long as the cheaper product." Is it correct to assume that your batteries utilize AGM technology? "Yes, that's correct. You can call it AGM, for 'absorbed glass mat', but it is also referred to as a 'starved electrolyte' battery. Layers of lead plates are separated by layers of glass mat, and the mat is soaked with electrolyte. Once assembled into a bundle, the alternating lead and glass bundles are compressed as part of the manufacturing process. Most manufacturers achieve about a ten- percent compression. Through the use of robotics, Northstar Battery has been able to come up with over a thirty- percent compression. This means that we can get a huge amount of plate area into a smaller space. The critical consideration is the amount of plate area in contact with the electrolyte, so the bundle can be compressed without loss of capacity." "Another advantage of a Meridian Battery is that if you should split the case, the battery isn't going to leak. All the electrolyte is contained in the glass mat." Isn't it true that an AGM battery can be installed in any position, except maybe upside down? "You can't install one upside down. You'll notice on these particular batteries that there's a unique feature. Any sealed battery has valves in it, and falls into a class we call 'valve regulated lead-acid batteries'. If you reach a case pressure of, (in our case at least) 5 psi then the vents open. It takes a serious overcharge to reach a case pressure of 5 psi, but when you do you're venting hydrogen gas. On our particular battery, if the valves should ever open the gas will go into this vent chamber, here on the top of the battery. The vent chamber is an excellent feature, and we go a step beyond that. We have two plastic nipples on the vent chamber so we can install plastic tubing. We can use the tubing to daisy chain the batteries together, and then drain the gasses overboard anywhere we want." "In Fort Lauderdale, we do a lot of Feadships and other big boats. Most of them fall under SOLAS, GMDSS requirements which means they have to have a back-up battery bank for their electronics. Typically, that's under the helm, where all the electronics are. When we have batteries under the electronics, we don't want to run the risk of the battery charger going crazy and venting corrosive gas onto the electronics. In a case like that, we use the remote venting feature and vent the batteries out the side of the boat. Are the vent tube fittings fairly well exclusive to the Meridian Marine product line? "Yes, it's a very unique solution. It allows us to do rack mount installations. Rather than have batteries stuck all around the engine room, we just weld up a stainless rack, install a number of batteries on their sides, and use a single vent for all of them." Do Meridians make good starting batteries? "Yes, because of the compression factor we have a tremendous amount of plate area in the battery and that gives them excellent starting power. Take a look at our 115-amp model for example. Most people would consider that a very compact battery, it's 4 ¼ inches wide, and 15 inches long. We just did a refit on a 150-foot Trinity, with a 53-litre, 1800 HP, 3512 Cat. The starting bank consists of two of these batteries combined to create 24-volts." "Take a look at our 210-amp model. As you can see, it is rated at 1830 cold cranking amps, and most 8D's are rated at about 1200. We have about 50% more cranking power, in a battery that occupies only half the space." What are the sizes most commonly purchased by pleasure boaters? "We just follow the standard marine ratings. We sell a lot of 115-amp, 130-amp, and 210-amp batteries to boaters. By putting two of those 210-amp batteries into a 8D box, all of a sudden you have created a 420-amp battery. Most of the 8D's are 200, 210 or 225 amps, depending upon who built the battery. The term 8D refers to case size. Our 210-amp battery is sort of in the middle, capacity wise, with most of the 8D batteries on the market, but it's only half the size. Putting two of these into the space traditionally occupied by an 8D creates a battery that is about double most 8D units. That's why I ask people whether they would prefer to have twice the power, or only use up half the space." How about deep-cycle durability? "Consider the typical, off-the-shelf flooded cell 8D battery. At 50% discharge, you're looking at 200 to 250 recharge cycles before that battery is done. With a Meridian, you can get over 800 cycles from 50% discharge. The deeper you discharge a battery, the fewer cycles you are going to get. A standard 8D discharged to 80% would be lucky to survive more than about 100 cycles. A Meridian discharged to 80% will last for over 500 recharges." How has the marine market responded to your product so far? "Well, Boat Electric is a good example. They waited a little while and studied the idea before they turned in their first stocking order. Sales in the Pacific Northwest have exploded, with batteries all but flying out the door. Boaters love these. We're now the OEM battery for Hinckley, Palmer Johnson, Direktor Shipyards, Lyman Morse, and nearly all the high-speed, custom sport fish guys. *** While most Pacific Northwest boaters won't be purchasing a Hinckley in the immediate future, it's fun to realize that our boats could rather realistically have a battery in common with such a prestigious craft. Next time the batteries wear out, it might be well to consider a newly relevant question when replacing them, "Do I want to use half the space, or enjoy double the power?" |
JimH wrote:
Nice post Chuck. How much are they retailing for? Having to deal with four lead plate group 31 batteries in my old boat was quite a chore and required maintenance every other week. Why? We have 4 Excide Gr-31 dual purpose batteries. I hooked them to a smart charger and they do quite well. Occasionally (like twice in 7 months) add distilled water. However I check them regularly... not a big deal. DSK |
Nice post Chuck. How much are they retailing for?
I'm under the impression that retail is maybe twice to two and a half times the price of a flooded cell battery, but I don't have any hard numbers. |
Thanks for writing & posting this, Chuck.
Some scarce boating content for the NG, a screw-up detector for me. My "executive editor" has a degree in English, but she doesn't know anything about boats. Running something through here is useful. If ten guys say, "Hey! What about this?" I can figure out whether it needs to be incorporated into or removed from the text. Very interesting reading. I am a fan of old fashioned flooded cell batteries, but these are worth looking into. I am also a flooded cell fan. I would certainly consider batteries like these if I needed to get the maximum amount of power into a minimal amount of space. |
"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Double the Power, or Half the Space? Can I assume, being into racing, these batteries are lighter per amp/hr than conventional automotive batteries? Dixon |
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Chuck, was that an advertisement? I read a lot of nice words, but didn't see
any test results or other statistics to support the claims. It was an interview, in which the subject responded to a request to talk about his company and his product. There's always a chance that the amp/hour ratings and CCA ratings printed on the battery cases are blatant lies, but I doubt it. You can get two of these into an existing 8D box, which is what the entire theme of the article (half the space or twice the power) is about. |
It's a PR piece for a new product. "Articles" like this is very common in
all boating magazines. Normally they agree to run so many ads if the magazine agrees to run the piece. You don't know a goddam thing about boats, and don't even begin to insinuate you know anything about boating magazines. Pick up any issue of any boating magazine, and if it is reasonably successful you can go through the magazine and say, "Oh, look! Here's an ad for that company or brand of boat that was featured in an article this month. Must be something fu'd going on here." Of course the fact that the same company or product may have advertised regularly for years means nothing.... Now count the dozens, scores, or in some of the largest publications the *hundreds* of ads for companies that do not have articles appearing in the issue. Any explanation for those? Add the publishing business to the list of things you need to learn more about. |
Did I say something to offend you? If so, I must have missed it.
I do know about Boating Mags and all magazines because I worked for a marketing company and we used to "buy" these PR pieces all the time. What did offend you about my comment? It was a PR fluff piece, nothing wrong with that. "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... It's a PR piece for a new product. "Articles" like this is very common in all boating magazines. Normally they agree to run so many ads if the magazine agrees to run the piece. You don't know a goddam thing about boats, and don't even begin to insinuate you know anything about boating magazines. Pick up any issue of any boating magazine, and if it is reasonably successful you can go through the magazine and say, "Oh, look! Here's an ad for that company or brand of boat that was featured in an article this month. Must be something fu'd going on here." Of course the fact that the same company or product may have advertised regularly for years means nothing.... Now count the dozens, scores, or in some of the largest publications the *hundreds* of ads for companies that do not have articles appearing in the issue. Any explanation for those? Add the publishing business to the list of things you need to learn more about. |
"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... It's a PR piece for a new product. "Articles" like this is very common in all boating magazines. Normally they agree to run so many ads if the magazine agrees to run the piece. You don't know a goddam thing about boats, and don't even begin to insinuate you know anything about boating magazines. Pick up any issue of any boating magazine, and if it is reasonably successful you can go through the magazine and say, "Oh, look! Here's an ad for that company or brand of boat that was featured in an article this month. Must be something fu'd going on here." Of course the fact that the same company or product may have advertised regularly for years means nothing.... Now count the dozens, scores, or in some of the largest publications the *hundreds* of ads for companies that do not have articles appearing in the issue. Any explanation for those? Add the publishing business to the list of things you need to learn more about. Undies in a knot tonight Chuck? Chill. |
"JimH" wrote in message ... "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... It's a PR piece for a new product. "Articles" like this is very common in all boating magazines. Normally they agree to run so many ads if the magazine agrees to run the piece. You don't know a goddam thing about boats, and don't even begin to insinuate you know anything about boating magazines. Pick up any issue of any boating magazine, and if it is reasonably successful you can go through the magazine and say, "Oh, look! Here's an ad for that company or brand of boat that was featured in an article this month. Must be something fu'd going on here." Of course the fact that the same company or product may have advertised regularly for years means nothing.... Now count the dozens, scores, or in some of the largest publications the *hundreds* of ads for companies that do not have articles appearing in the issue. Any explanation for those? Add the publishing business to the list of things you need to learn more about. Undies in a knot tonight Chuck? Chill. Must have seen the latest zogby poll |
I take "Motorboating" and it has several articles a month about new
boats. All of the new boats are 'spectacular'. None have faults. Are there any magazines which actually compare different brands? Usually not head to head. I subscribed to Poweboat Reports for a while, but their editorial budget is almost non existent and they draw absolute conclusions about items that are obviously very subjective. Many of the considerations are pretty subjective. For example, most new boats have a shiny gel coat. Does Brand A shine more than Brand B? Who knows? Does it matter as long as both are really shiny? How big does "roomy" stateroom have to be? Etc. There are also differences between a thorough, clinical test and a review of general impressions and experiences while aboard. Sort of like the differences between David Pascoe's "reviews" and an actual survey. Take the battery article- you wanted "tests, statistics, charts, graphs, etc" to back up the guy's claims about his batteries- but really beyond the amp hour rating, physical case size, and CCA of the batteries he didn't make any claims that would have to be verified by an indpendent laboratory. One of the challenges with boats is that the majority of gasoline powered boats share the same mfgr's engines. Tough to rate one brand a lot higher on mechanical reliability than another when so many major components are exactgly the same. With some of the diesel boats, you might find a particular engine throughout the production run, or you might find several. Best way to compare, head to head, would be to save the "performance data chart" (if there is one) from one issue to the next. If you're lucky, you might learn enough about a product from a general article to know whether or not you want to investigate it further, but nobody should expect a magazine to tell them everything they need to know to make a decision about any product. Boats and accessories included. |
Undies in a knot tonight Chuck? Chill.
Not at all. The man of a thousand screen names presumed to declare what the item *really* was, and why it was written. He was wrong on both counts, wrong about the way the business works, and wrong to run his mouth about a subject where he is so clearly underinformed. |
Did I say something to offend you? If so, I must have missed it.
I do know about Boating Mags and all magazines because I worked for a marketing company and we used to "buy" these PR pieces all the time. You presumed to declare a motivation behind the article. You were wrong. You presumed to declare that there is an advertising deal in the works between my publisher and the battery company. You are wrong again. There is no quid-pro-quo as you insisted.(The company that retails this product in town *does* advertise in my publisher's magazine, and all other regional publications, and has done so every month for about 20 years. Odds are good that they will advertise for another 20 whether we ever mentioned their name outside of their ad space, or not. Our revenue from that account will not increase, or decrease ten cents as a result of the interview). When you run a specialty publication addressing a narrow field of interest, there will certainly be many instances when an article features a company that is also an advertiser. I suppose to be really uptight about it, we could adopt a policy that read, "We will refuse to accept any advertising from your firm for one issue prior and two issues beyond the month any editorial regarding your company appears." Not likely to happen. We try not to be whores, but by the same token there's no point in being a self righteous martyr. |
"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Undies in a knot tonight Chuck? Chill. Not at all. The man of a thousand screen names presumed to declare what the item *really* was, and why it was written. He was wrong on both counts, wrong about the way the business works, and wrong to run his mouth about a subject where he is so clearly underinformed. As an engineer, I found the article interesting but a little light on details as has been noted by others. It did have hints of a penumbra of an emanation of the kind of article Motor Trend was famous for. Do you recall the raves for the Vega and the wonderful new engine process in which the bores were anodized which was said to be far superior to using liners? Popular Science was another magazine given to that sort of article. I will not venture a guess as to the motivation of the authors and editors. I doubt, except perhaps for motor trend, that it was so crass as a straight money for editorial transaction. Providing all the bloody details, especially if independently arrived at, is way more work that one person can handle. del cecchi |
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JimH,
I think Chuck might be out of the loop, and doesn't realize the magazines sell these fluff pieces to anyone who wants to pay for them. What I can't figure out is why he is so upset about such a common practice. "JimH" wrote in message ... "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... It's a PR piece for a new product. "Articles" like this is very common in all boating magazines. Normally they agree to run so many ads if the magazine agrees to run the piece. You don't know a goddam thing about boats, and don't even begin to insinuate you know anything about boating magazines. Pick up any issue of any boating magazine, and if it is reasonably successful you can go through the magazine and say, "Oh, look! Here's an ad for that company or brand of boat that was featured in an article this month. Must be something fu'd going on here." Of course the fact that the same company or product may have advertised regularly for years means nothing.... Now count the dozens, scores, or in some of the largest publications the *hundreds* of ads for companies that do not have articles appearing in the issue. Any explanation for those? Add the publishing business to the list of things you need to learn more about. Undies in a knot tonight Chuck? Chill. |
Gould,
I hate to tell you this, but you are the one uniformed. The question is why are you so upset if your publisher asked you to write a "fluff" article. It was a good "fluff" article, nothing to be ashamed of. It sounded like all of the "reviews" in boating magazines. "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Undies in a knot tonight Chuck? Chill. Not at all. The man of a thousand screen names presumed to declare what the item *really* was, and why it was written. He was wrong on both counts, wrong about the way the business works, and wrong to run his mouth about a subject where he is so clearly underinformed. |
Gould,
I have no problems about Boating Mags lack of real reporting. No one expects them to honestly review any product. I was talking to someone who reviewed boats and he told me if they really come across a piece of **** boat, in which they can not find anything good to say about the boat, they just won't review it. They don't want to do anything to **** off their bread and butter. "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Did I say something to offend you? If so, I must have missed it. I do know about Boating Mags and all magazines because I worked for a marketing company and we used to "buy" these PR pieces all the time. You presumed to declare a motivation behind the article. You were wrong. You presumed to declare that there is an advertising deal in the works between my publisher and the battery company. You are wrong again. There is no quid-pro-quo as you insisted.(The company that retails this product in town *does* advertise in my publisher's magazine, and all other regional publications, and has done so every month for about 20 years. Odds are good that they will advertise for another 20 whether we ever mentioned their name outside of their ad space, or not. Our revenue from that account will not increase, or decrease ten cents as a result of the interview). When you run a specialty publication addressing a narrow field of interest, there will certainly be many instances when an article features a company that is also an advertiser. I suppose to be really uptight about it, we could adopt a policy that read, "We will refuse to accept any advertising from your firm for one issue prior and two issues beyond the month any editorial regarding your company appears." Not likely to happen. We try not to be whores, but by the same token there's no point in being a self righteous martyr. |
Tom,
What it would really read much more positive than that. Something along the lines of: The beautiful lines of the Ranger T-Top will protect you from UV rays while you troll for those monster fish using the built in rod holders. The T-Top utilizes a unique process that allows Ranger to keep the weight as low as possible, an important consideration for anyone who tows his boat using the family car. "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... The Ranger T-top is undersized and didn't quite fit the center console properly causing vibrations and their unwanted side effects" is translated into "The Ranger T-top, while somewhat under engineered, looks good on the boat and has four rod holders". :) All the best, Tom -------------- "What the hell's the deal with this newsgroup... is there a computer terminal in the day room of some looney bin somewhere?" Bilgeman - circa 2004 |
On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:49:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote: My problem with boating and fishing mags is that they depend on the ads for a living ============================================= Its worse than that. They also depend on the builders and dealers for test boats since they can't afford to buy them at retail. If they start making unfavorable comments, the supply of test boats will dry up very quickly. |
On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:49:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing
wrote: I worked for a year with the ARRL as a Technical Editor for their main magazine "QST" and was the de-facto editor of "QEX" which was their heavy theory and experimental magazine. ============================= Interesting. Now I know where the "Short Wave Sportfishing" handle comes from. One of the highlights of my ham career was working Doug DeMaw on 80 CW while he was running one of his famous QRP rigs. That was back in the early 70s when he was Tech Editor of QST. |
The magazines, the boat builders and suppliers, and most of the general
public know of the symbiotic relationship, I am surprised that no one told Gould about it. .. "Wayne.B" wrote in message ... On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:49:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: My problem with boating and fishing mags is that they depend on the ads for a living ============================================= Its worse than that. They also depend on the builders and dealers for test boats since they can't afford to buy them at retail. If they start making unfavorable comments, the supply of test boats will dry up very quickly. |
On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 15:20:00 GMT, "Jon Smithe"
wrote: I am surprised that no one told Gould about it. ================================= Chuck is a smart guy and he knows very well. His professional connections however, require him to go cruising in "de nile" now and then. |
On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:58:52 GMT, "Jon Smithe"
wrote: Tom, What it would really read much more positive than that. Something along the lines of: The beautiful lines of the Ranger T-Top will protect you from UV rays while you troll for those monster fish using the built in rod holders. The T-Top utilizes a unique process that allows Ranger to keep the weight as low as possible, an important consideration for anyone who tows his boat using the family car. In my experience, that would be considered an outright lie, but other would be considered "truth". Trust me on this. :) Take care. Tom "The beatings will stop when morale improves." E. Teach, 1717 |
On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:56:15 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:49:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: I worked for a year with the ARRL as a Technical Editor for their main magazine "QST" and was the de-facto editor of "QEX" which was their heavy theory and experimental magazine. ============================= Interesting. Now I know where the "Short Wave Sportfishing" handle comes from. One of the highlights of my ham career was working Doug DeMaw on 80 CW while he was running one of his famous QRP rigs. That was back in the early 70s when he was Tech Editor of QST. Doug was an interesting individual - a creature of the times if you will. Ever hear the story of the radio design that by all rights it should never have worked? And most of the time didn't? He was a master at it. When Doug sent in something to QST, only the high mucky mucks were allowed to fiddle with his articles. Us riff-raff weren't allowed to question his musings. :) I could tell you stories about DeMaw and the "Chicago Mafia" that ran the league for a few years. :) God, have I been a ham that long? Guess so. :) All the best, Tom -------------- "What the hell's the deal with this newsgroup... is there a computer terminal in the day room of some looney bin somewhere?" Bilgeman - circa 2004 |
On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:41:45 -0400, Wayne.B
wrote: On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 10:49:07 GMT, Short Wave Sportfishing wrote: My problem with boating and fishing mags is that they depend on the ads for a living ============================================= Its worse than that. They also depend on the builders and dealers for test boats since they can't afford to buy them at retail. If they start making unfavorable comments, the supply of test boats will dry up very quickly. Ok - my .02¢. Because of time ahead and just-in-time design and production cycles, it is almost impossible to react to consumer or critical evaluations such that a better boat can be built incorporating those reviews. What they can do is incorporate those design ideas forward in time, but they cannot correct design flaws backward. And that's the major problem. I believe there is room for honest evaluation - you just have to work at it, make arrangements with the manufacturers and force some issues. Then maybe we'd get better boats for less money. If I were still in the small boat market, I would have a boat custom built. And I know where I would build it - Blue Fin Yachts over in Bristol, RI. That way I could incorporate the ideas (like mounting the fire extinguisher side ways instead of up and down) and other things that make a good boat. If pressed, I'd steal all the good ideas from Polar boats and have one built by Blue Fin. :) Later, Tom |
"Gould 0738" wrote in message ... You presumed to declare a motivation behind the article. You were wrong. Well, I certainly don't know the circumstances behind the article, but is sure has all the classic signs of a paid advertisement in disguise. You let the manufacturer lead the discussion, talk only about the strong points, don't provide any real facts or figures, include several statements that are misleading, and don't ask any of the obvious questions the "inquiring minds" would like to know. This happens all the time. Many, if not all, magazines will trade an article for either a direct payment or an agreement to run advertising, or perhaps some other form of sponsership. I have created a new consumer product and have been through all this. You pay the radio talk show host to mention the product. You give Oprah one for herself, one for all her friends, and one to give away on her show to get her to mention it. You pay NBC big bucks to include one on their sit-com show and even write a show that works it into the plot. The marketing department writes "press releases" and sends them out to all the relevant publications. We would write "articles" and send them out, and they would get published word for word. We would even write our own "interviews" and buy space in certain magazines. Did your magazine actually conduct the interview, or did you just take copy from the manufacturer? If you are really in a position to know, then I will take it at your word. But don't be surprised if others doubt your story. Rod |
Did your magazine actually conduct the interview, or did you just take copy
from the manufacturer? *I* personally conducted the interview. Got a microcassette recorder? I'll send you the tape. |
I believe that "lighter per amp hour" is accurate.
========================================== Possibly a dangerous assumption since they are still lead-acid cells. Some comparisons for you: The 210-amp Meridian battery weighs 131 pounds. That calculates at 1.60 amps per pound. A 225-amp West Marine gel cell battery weighs 161 pounds, delivering only 1.39 amps per pound. The 245-amp West Marine AGM battery weighs 158 pounds, rivaling but not equaling the Meridian amp/pound output at 1.55 amps per pound. The West Marine 12-volt flooded cell 8D is rated at 170 amps, and weighs 132 pounds. The equates to less than 1.29 amps per pound. Without bothering to run a comparsion against every single battery on the market, it is possible to establish that these batteries are indeed "lighter per amp hour" (or, more amp hours per pound) than many batteries, including every variety of 8D Marine battery offered by the nation's largest marine retailer. |
JimH,
I think Chuck might be out of the loop, and doesn't realize the magazines sell these fluff pieces to anyone who wants to pay for them. Wrong. I make 100% of the editorial decisions in the publication. Not exactly "out of the loop". What I can't figure out is why he is so upset about such a common practice. Well then figure this out. First, I'm not "upset", just shocked that a guy who doesn't know **** from shine about the situation presumes to insist that the item was written to order and involves and advertising deal. You're just flat wrong, John, Jon, whatever.... Insisting over and over again that you are right, with *no* evidence other than your own insistence, makes you look extremely silly. |
Gould,
I hate to tell you this, but you are the one uniformed. The question is why are you so upset if your publisher asked you to write a "fluff" article My publisher seldom asks me to write anything. I have full editorial discretion. That's a concept you probably wouldn't understand, as all you can seem to write are snide personal remarks about other people. Why don't you get back over to the OT political threads where you belong, and stop trying to pick fights and start personal arguments in an on-topic thread? You want to bitch about my personal or political philosophies, fine. Do it where it's appropriate. Trying to hijack a thread into a personal squabble is *exactly* what your very favorite participant in the NG is famous for. Is part of your fixation on that person a burning desire to emulate his behavior? It sounded like all of the "reviews" in boating magazines. It wasn't a product review, it was an informational interview and represented as such. I'd think a guy who claims to be an expert on writing and publishing, as well as a mind-reader, would know the difference. |
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SWS,
It sounds like you know what you are talking about, but what did I say was a lie? It was all fluff with out really saying anything. When someone cuts the gauge on metal, they put in "strengthen" ridges or corrugation type folds to make up for lack of strength, hence "the unique process". If someone is towing a boat with the family car, weight is important consideration. I don't think I lied, I just emphasized the positive and ignored the fact that the T-Top will not be able to take a lot of excess stress, such as one might find in strong winds or a careless boater grabbing the T-Top. "Short Wave Sportfishing" wrote in message ... On Sat, 16 Oct 2004 12:58:52 GMT, "Jon Smithe" wrote: Tom, What it would really read much more positive than that. Something along the lines of: The beautiful lines of the Ranger T-Top will protect you from UV rays while you troll for those monster fish using the built in rod holders. The T-Top utilizes a unique process that allows Ranger to keep the weight as low as possible, an important consideration for anyone who tows his boat using the family car. In my experience, that would be considered an outright lie, but other would be considered "truth". Trust me on this. :) Take care. Tom "The beatings will stop when morale improves." E. Teach, 1717 |
Gould,
I thought your Fluff article was a well written PR piece that was worthy of any boating magazine. I also believe the PR piece was a payoff for advertising, both for buying past ads and future ads. My guess is your "distributor or store" selling the product, contacted your editor or sales dept. and said, he I have a great new product can you write up a "review" of the product. They knew he was a good steady advertiser and thought it would be a great way to fill up some pages and give your advertiser something special for all of his ads. The editor or sales dept. knows to refuse to do these PR articles can result in lost ad revenues going to your competitors.. Now, if a distributor or store who never advertised in your magazine had contacted your magazine for a fluff piece on a similar product I sincerely doubt we would ever see the piece, unless he agreed to run some ads. No need to be ashamed, you are in the business to make money, but don't fool yourself into believing their is not a "payoff" for advertising.. Any reader of your magazine would know that this was not really a review, but a nice PR article. It doesn't matter if it is a piece that is sent out by the builder's PR dept, or a magazine who supplies the writer with a tape recorder so he can repeat what the builder tells him, it is a fluff PR piece. "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... The magazines, the boat builders and suppliers, and most of the general public know of the symbiotic relationship, I am surprised that no one told Gould about it. Suddenly we're backpedaling from "a PR piece written in exchange for a advertising commitment" to a "symbiotic relationship"? Every aspect of any economy is a "symbiotic relationship." |
Gould,
I was not trying to pick a fight with anyone, and was meant to support your magazine position in running the infomercial.. I was responding to someone's comment in which he said " Chuck, was that an advertisement? I read a lot of nice words, but didn't see any test results or other statistics to support the claims." My reply was "It's a PR piece for a new product. "Articles" like this is very common in all boating magazines. .Normally they agree to run so many ads if the magazine agrees to run the piece." Your reply was "You don't know a goddam thing about boats, and don't even begin to insinuate you know anything about boating magazines." In other posts you continue to make personal insults and were trying to pick a fight. I continued to keep the discussion on topic about boating magazines. As far as you comment about the editor asking you to write the piece, didn't you say your editor asked you to give the president of the company a call? If not, how did you hear about the product and get the presidents name and telephone number so you 'interview" him? Even though you obviously was the one trying to start a fight, I have deliberately stayed away from a fight and keep the discussion on topic. As you can see from the all other replies everyone agreed that this is the typical well written PR piece run by boating magazines. Again, I am amazed at how upset you became when I made my supporting comment. I have done everything to keep this on a discussion about boating magazines, you have made this into a discussion of personalities and not issues. According to your standards, repeated often in this NG, that is only done when someone believes they have lost the argument. "Gould 0738" wrote in message ... Gould, I hate to tell you this, but you are the one uniformed. The question is why are you so upset if your publisher asked you to write a "fluff" article My publisher seldom asks me to write anything. I have full editorial discretion. That's a concept you probably wouldn't understand, as all you can seem to write are snide personal remarks about other people. Why don't you get back over to the OT political threads where you belong, and stop trying to pick fights and start personal arguments in an on-topic thread? You want to bitch about my personal or political philosophies, fine. Do it where it's appropriate. Trying to hijack a thread into a personal squabble is *exactly* what your very favorite participant in the NG is famous for. Is part of your fixation on that person a burning desire to emulate his behavior? It sounded like all of the "reviews" in boating magazines. It wasn't a product review, it was an informational interview and represented as such. I'd think a guy who claims to be an expert on writing and publishing, as well as a mind-reader, would know the difference. |
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