Double the Power, or Half the Space?


We recently dropped by Boat Electric (on Westlake Avenue in Seattle) to visit
with Harris Allen, of Meridian Marine Progressive Products. Meridian Marine
Progressive Products is the marine distribution and marketing arm of the
Northstar Battery Company. Boat Electric has been selling the Meridian Marine
batteries, and business is so brisk that employees have resorted hooking the
Meridian batteries on display together with zip ties.
"We had a lot of people tearing apart the display to get to the batteries,"
said a Boat Electric spokesperson. "We were having to rebuild the display all
the time, and we would really rather sell a battery out of our store room."

We wanted to know why these batteries are becoming so popular with NW boaters,
and Harris Allen proved to be very informative. Harris shared a general outline
of the company history and the specific battery technology employed in the
Meridian Marine battery.

*****

What can you tell us about the company itself?

"Northstar Battery was formed three or three and a half years ago by an
international group of battery company executives. Many of them were from
Europe. They had an idea that they wanted to build a better battery. They went
out and raised $60-million in venture capital, and built the most advanced
battery-manufacturing plant in the world in Springfield, Missouri. They built
the plant in Missouri because the two largest lead mines in the US are located
there."

"The founders realized that if they were going to build an improved battery,
they would have to go outside the traditional manufacturing processes used by
all the other manufacturers. A new approach was required, and they adapted
technology from aerospace, automotive, and other industries to get the robotics
that they needed to assemble these batteries."

With all of the batteries on the market, why would a Northwest boater want to
specifically consider yours?

"One of the most remarkable things about the Meridian Marine battery is that my
unit with amp-hour capacity equivalent with a traditional 8D battery is only
about half the size. It is slightly taller, but our battery is only 5-inches
wide. We can effectively put two of these in the space of a single 8D. In fact,
many people put two new Meridians into the same battery box that previously
held only one 8D. I ask prospective customers whether they would prefer to
recover half the space currently used by batteries, or enjoy double the power.
It's a win-win decision, no matter how a boater decides."

"The Meridian Marine battery is a premium product. They cost a lot more to
manufacture, and to buy, than some battery purchased off the shelf in an auto
parts store. Although the initial cost is higher than an off-the-shelf 8D, the
Meridian battery will have a service life that is almost four times as long as
the cheaper product."


Is it correct to assume that your batteries utilize AGM technology?


"Yes, that's correct. You can call it AGM, for 'absorbed glass mat', but it is
also referred to as a 'starved electrolyte' battery. Layers of lead plates are
separated by layers of glass mat, and the mat is soaked with electrolyte. Once
assembled into a bundle, the alternating lead and glass bundles are compressed
as part of the manufacturing process. Most manufacturers achieve about a ten-
percent compression. Through the use of robotics, Northstar Battery has been
able to come up with over a thirty- percent compression. This means that we can
get a huge amount of plate area into a smaller space. The critical
consideration is the amount of plate area in contact with the electrolyte, so
the bundle can be compressed without loss of capacity."

"Another advantage of a Meridian Battery is that if you should split the case,
the battery isn't going to leak. All the electrolyte is contained in the glass
mat."


Isn't it true that an AGM battery can be installed in any position, except
maybe upside down?

"You can't install one upside down. You'll notice on these particular batteries
that there's a unique feature. Any sealed battery has valves in it, and falls
into a class we call 'valve regulated lead-acid batteries'. If you reach a case
pressure of, (in our case at least) 5 psi then the vents open. It takes a
serious overcharge to reach a case pressure of 5 psi, but when you do you're
venting hydrogen gas. On our particular battery, if the valves should ever open
the gas will go into this vent chamber, here on the top of the battery. The
vent chamber is an excellent feature, and we go a step beyond that. We have two
plastic nipples on the vent chamber so we can install plastic tubing. We can
use the tubing to daisy chain the batteries together, and then drain the gasses
overboard anywhere we want."

"In Fort Lauderdale, we do a lot of Feadships and other big boats. Most of them
fall under SOLAS, GMDSS requirements which means they have to have a back-up
battery bank for their electronics. Typically, that's under the helm, where all
the electronics are.
When we have batteries under the electronics, we don't want to run the risk of
the battery charger going crazy and venting corrosive gas onto the electronics.
In a case like that, we use the remote venting feature and vent the batteries
out the side of the boat.

Are the vent tube fittings fairly well exclusive to the Meridian Marine product
line?

"Yes, it's a very unique solution. It allows us to do rack mount installations.
Rather than have batteries stuck all around the engine room, we just weld up a
stainless rack, install a number of batteries on their sides, and use a single
vent for all of them."


Do Meridians make good starting batteries?

"Yes, because of the compression factor we have a tremendous amount of plate
area in the battery and that gives them excellent starting power. Take a look
at our 115-amp model for example. Most people would consider that a very
compact battery, it's 4 ¼ inches wide, and 15 inches long. We just did a refit
on a 150-foot Trinity, with a 53-litre, 1800 HP, 3512 Cat. The starting bank
consists of two of these batteries combined to create 24-volts."

"Take a look at our 210-amp model. As you can see, it is rated at 1830 cold
cranking amps, and most 8D's are rated at about 1200. We have about 50% more
cranking power, in a battery that occupies only half the space."

What are the sizes most commonly purchased by pleasure boaters?

"We just follow the standard marine ratings. We sell a lot of 115-amp, 130-amp,
and 210-amp batteries to boaters. By putting two of those 210-amp batteries
into a 8D box, all of a sudden you have created a 420-amp battery. Most of the
8D's are 200, 210 or 225 amps, depending upon who built the battery. The term
8D refers to case size. Our 210-amp battery is sort of in the middle, capacity
wise, with most of the 8D batteries on the market, but it's only half the size.
Putting two of these into the space traditionally occupied by an 8D creates a
battery that is about double most 8D units. That's why I ask people whether
they would prefer to have twice the power, or only use up half the space."

How about deep-cycle durability?

"Consider the typical, off-the-shelf flooded cell 8D battery. At 50% discharge,
you're looking at 200 to 250 recharge cycles before that battery is done. With
a Meridian, you can get over 800 cycles from 50% discharge. The deeper you
discharge a battery, the fewer cycles you are going to get. A standard 8D
discharged to 80% would be lucky to survive more than about 100 cycles. A
Meridian discharged to 80% will last for over 500 recharges."

How has the marine market responded to your product so far?

"Well, Boat Electric is a good example. They waited a little while and studied
the idea before they turned in their first stocking order. Sales in the Pacific
Northwest have exploded, with batteries all but flying out the door. Boaters
love these. We're now the OEM battery for Hinckley, Palmer Johnson, Direktor
Shipyards, Lyman Morse, and nearly all the high-speed, custom sport fish guys.

***

While most Pacific Northwest boaters won't be purchasing a Hinckley in the
immediate future, it's fun to realize that our boats could rather realistically
have a battery in common with such a prestigious craft. Next time the batteries
wear out, it might be well to consider a newly relevant question when replacing
them, "Do I want to use half the space, or enjoy double the power?"

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Double the Power, or Half the Space?


We recently dropped by Boat Electric (on Westlake Avenue in Seattle) to
visit
with Harris Allen, of Meridian Marine Progressive Products. Meridian
Marine
Progressive Products is the marine distribution and marketing arm of the
Northstar Battery Company. Boat Electric has been selling the Meridian
Marine
batteries, and business is so brisk that employees have resorted hooking
the
Meridian batteries on display together with zip ties.
"We had a lot of people tearing apart the display to get to the
batteries,"
said a Boat Electric spokesperson. "We were having to rebuild the display
all
the time, and we would really rather sell a battery out of our store
room."

We wanted to know why these batteries are becoming so popular with NW
boaters,
and Harris Allen proved to be very informative. Harris shared a general
outline
of the company history and the specific battery technology employed in the
Meridian Marine battery.

*****

What can you tell us about the company itself?

"Northstar Battery was formed three or three and a half years ago by an
international group of battery company executives. Many of them were from
Europe. They had an idea that they wanted to build a better battery. They
went
out and raised $60-million in venture capital, and built the most advanced
battery-manufacturing plant in the world in Springfield, Missouri. They
built
the plant in Missouri because the two largest lead mines in the US are
located
there."

"The founders realized that if they were going to build an improved
battery,
they would have to go outside the traditional manufacturing processes used
by
all the other manufacturers. A new approach was required, and they adapted
technology from aerospace, automotive, and other industries to get the
robotics
that they needed to assemble these batteries."

With all of the batteries on the market, why would a Northwest boater want
to
specifically consider yours?

"One of the most remarkable things about the Meridian Marine battery is
that my
unit with amp-hour capacity equivalent with a traditional 8D battery is
only
about half the size. It is slightly taller, but our battery is only
5-inches
wide. We can effectively put two of these in the space of a single 8D. In
fact,
many people put two new Meridians into the same battery box that
previously
held only one 8D. I ask prospective customers whether they would prefer
to
recover half the space currently used by batteries, or enjoy double the
power.
It's a win-win decision, no matter how a boater decides."

"The Meridian Marine battery is a premium product. They cost a lot more to
manufacture, and to buy, than some battery purchased off the shelf in an
auto
parts store. Although the initial cost is higher than an off-the-shelf 8D,
the
Meridian battery will have a service life that is almost four times as
long as
the cheaper product."


Is it correct to assume that your batteries utilize AGM technology?


"Yes, that's correct. You can call it AGM, for 'absorbed glass mat', but
it is
also referred to as a 'starved electrolyte' battery. Layers of lead plates
are
separated by layers of glass mat, and the mat is soaked with electrolyte.
Once
assembled into a bundle, the alternating lead and glass bundles are
compressed
as part of the manufacturing process. Most manufacturers achieve about a
ten-
percent compression. Through the use of robotics, Northstar Battery has
been
able to come up with over a thirty- percent compression. This means that
we can
get a huge amount of plate area into a smaller space. The critical
consideration is the amount of plate area in contact with the electrolyte,
so
the bundle can be compressed without loss of capacity."

"Another advantage of a Meridian Battery is that if you should split the
case,
the battery isn't going to leak. All the electrolyte is contained in the
glass
mat."


Isn't it true that an AGM battery can be installed in any position, except
maybe upside down?

"You can't install one upside down. You'll notice on these particular
batteries
that there's a unique feature. Any sealed battery has valves in it, and
falls
into a class we call 'valve regulated lead-acid batteries'. If you reach a
case
pressure of, (in our case at least) 5 psi then the vents open. It takes a
serious overcharge to reach a case pressure of 5 psi, but when you do
you're
venting hydrogen gas. On our particular battery, if the valves should ever
open
the gas will go into this vent chamber, here on the top of the battery.
The
vent chamber is an excellent feature, and we go a step beyond that. We
have two
plastic nipples on the vent chamber so we can install plastic tubing. We
can
use the tubing to daisy chain the batteries together, and then drain the
gasses
overboard anywhere we want."

"In Fort Lauderdale, we do a lot of Feadships and other big boats. Most of
them
fall under SOLAS, GMDSS requirements which means they have to have a
back-up
battery bank for their electronics. Typically, that's under the helm,
where all
the electronics are.
When we have batteries under the electronics, we don't want to run the
risk of
the battery charger going crazy and venting corrosive gas onto the
electronics.
In a case like that, we use the remote venting feature and vent the
batteries
out the side of the boat.

Are the vent tube fittings fairly well exclusive to the Meridian Marine
product
line?

"Yes, it's a very unique solution. It allows us to do rack mount
installations.
Rather than have batteries stuck all around the engine room, we just weld
up a
stainless rack, install a number of batteries on their sides, and use a
single
vent for all of them."


Do Meridians make good starting batteries?

"Yes, because of the compression factor we have a tremendous amount of
plate
area in the battery and that gives them excellent starting power. Take a
look
at our 115-amp model for example. Most people would consider that a very
compact battery, it's 4 ¼ inches wide, and 15 inches long. We just did a
refit
on a 150-foot Trinity, with a 53-litre, 1800 HP, 3512 Cat. The starting
bank
consists of two of these batteries combined to create 24-volts."

"Take a look at our 210-amp model. As you can see, it is rated at 1830
cold
cranking amps, and most 8D's are rated at about 1200. We have about 50%
more
cranking power, in a battery that occupies only half the space."

What are the sizes most commonly purchased by pleasure boaters?

"We just follow the standard marine ratings. We sell a lot of 115-amp,
130-amp,
and 210-amp batteries to boaters. By putting two of those 210-amp
batteries
into a 8D box, all of a sudden you have created a 420-amp battery. Most of
the
8D's are 200, 210 or 225 amps, depending upon who built the battery. The
term
8D refers to case size. Our 210-amp battery is sort of in the middle,
capacity
wise, with most of the 8D batteries on the market, but it's only half the
size.
Putting two of these into the space traditionally occupied by an 8D
creates a
battery that is about double most 8D units. That's why I ask people
whether
they would prefer to have twice the power, or only use up half the space."

How about deep-cycle durability?

"Consider the typical, off-the-shelf flooded cell 8D battery. At 50%
discharge,
you're looking at 200 to 250 recharge cycles before that battery is done.
With
a Meridian, you can get over 800 cycles from 50% discharge. The deeper you
discharge a battery, the fewer cycles you are going to get. A standard 8D
discharged to 80% would be lucky to survive more than about 100 cycles. A
Meridian discharged to 80% will last for over 500 recharges."

How has the marine market responded to your product so far?

"Well, Boat Electric is a good example. They waited a little while and
studied
the idea before they turned in their first stocking order. Sales in the
Pacific
Northwest have exploded, with batteries all but flying out the door.
Boaters
love these. We're now the OEM battery for Hinckley, Palmer Johnson,
Direktor
Shipyards, Lyman Morse, and nearly all the high-speed, custom sport fish
guys.

***

While most Pacific Northwest boaters won't be purchasing a Hinckley in the
immediate future, it's fun to realize that our boats could rather
realistically
have a battery in common with such a prestigious craft. Next time the
batteries
wear out, it might be well to consider a newly relevant question when
replacing
them, "Do I want to use half the space, or enjoy double the power?"




Nice post Chuck. How much are they retailing for?

Having to deal with four lead plate group 31 batteries in my old boat was
quite a chore and required maintenance every other week.

JimH wrote:
Nice post Chuck. How much are they retailing for?

Having to deal with four lead plate group 31 batteries in my old boat was
quite a chore and required maintenance every other week.

Why?

We have 4 Excide Gr-31 dual purpose batteries. I hooked them to a smart
charger and they do quite well. Occasionally (like twice in 7 months)
add distilled water. However I check them regularly... not a big deal.

DSK

Nice post Chuck. How much are they retailing for?

I'm under the impression that retail is maybe twice to two and a half times the
price of a flooded cell battery, but I don't have any hard numbers.

Thanks for writing & posting this, Chuck. Very interesting reading. I am
a fan of old fashioned flooded cell batteries, but these are worth
looking into.

Fair Skies
Doug King

Gould 0738 wrote:

Double the Power, or Half the Space?


We recently dropped by Boat Electric (on Westlake Avenue in Seattle) to visit
with Harris Allen, of Meridian Marine Progressive Products. Meridian Marine
Progressive Products is the marine distribution and marketing arm of the
Northstar Battery Company. Boat Electric has been selling the Meridian Marine
batteries, and business is so brisk that employees have resorted hooking the
Meridian batteries on display together with zip ties.
"We had a lot of people tearing apart the display to get to the batteries,"
said a Boat Electric spokesperson. "We were having to rebuild the display all
the time, and we would really rather sell a battery out of our store room."

We wanted to know why these batteries are becoming so popular with NW boaters,
and Harris Allen proved to be very informative. Harris shared a general outline
of the company history and the specific battery technology employed in the
Meridian Marine battery.

*****

What can you tell us about the company itself?

"Northstar Battery was formed three or three and a half years ago by an
international group of battery company executives. Many of them were from
Europe. They had an idea that they wanted to build a better battery. They went
out and raised $60-million in venture capital, and built the most advanced
battery-manufacturing plant in the world in Springfield, Missouri. They built
the plant in Missouri because the two largest lead mines in the US are located
there."

"The founders realized that if they were going to build an improved battery,
they would have to go outside the traditional manufacturing processes used by
all the other manufacturers. A new approach was required, and they adapted
technology from aerospace, automotive, and other industries to get the robotics
that they needed to assemble these batteries."

With all of the batteries on the market, why would a Northwest boater want to
specifically consider yours?

"One of the most remarkable things about the Meridian Marine battery is that my
unit with amp-hour capacity equivalent with a traditional 8D battery is only
about half the size. It is slightly taller, but our battery is only 5-inches
wide. We can effectively put two of these in the space of a single 8D. In fact,
many people put two new Meridians into the same battery box that previously
held only one 8D. I ask prospective customers whether they would prefer to
recover half the space currently used by batteries, or enjoy double the power.
It's a win-win decision, no matter how a boater decides."

"The Meridian Marine battery is a premium product. They cost a lot more to
manufacture, and to buy, than some battery purchased off the shelf in an auto
parts store. Although the initial cost is higher than an off-the-shelf 8D, the
Meridian battery will have a service life that is almost four times as long as
the cheaper product."


Is it correct to assume that your batteries utilize AGM technology?


"Yes, that's correct. You can call it AGM, for 'absorbed glass mat', but it is
also referred to as a 'starved electrolyte' battery. Layers of lead plates are
separated by layers of glass mat, and the mat is soaked with electrolyte. Once
assembled into a bundle, the alternating lead and glass bundles are compressed
as part of the manufacturing process. Most manufacturers achieve about a ten-
percent compression. Through the use of robotics, Northstar Battery has been
able to come up with over a thirty- percent compression. This means that we can
get a huge amount of plate area into a smaller space. The critical
consideration is the amount of plate area in contact with the electrolyte, so
the bundle can be compressed without loss of capacity."

"Another advantage of a Meridian Battery is that if you should split the case,
the battery isn't going to leak. All the electrolyte is contained in the glass
mat."


Isn't it true that an AGM battery can be installed in any position, except
maybe upside down?

"You can't install one upside down. You'll notice on these particular batteries
that there's a unique feature. Any sealed battery has valves in it, and falls
into a class we call 'valve regulated lead-acid batteries'. If you reach a case
pressure of, (in our case at least) 5 psi then the vents open. It takes a
serious overcharge to reach a case pressure of 5 psi, but when you do you're
venting hydrogen gas. On our particular battery, if the valves should ever open
the gas will go into this vent chamber, here on the top of the battery. The
vent chamber is an excellent feature, and we go a step beyond that. We have two
plastic nipples on the vent chamber so we can install plastic tubing. We can
use the tubing to daisy chain the batteries together, and then drain the gasses
overboard anywhere we want."

"In Fort Lauderdale, we do a lot of Feadships and other big boats. Most of them
fall under SOLAS, GMDSS requirements which means they have to have a back-up
battery bank for their electronics. Typically, that's under the helm, where all
the electronics are.
When we have batteries under the electronics, we don't want to run the risk of
the battery charger going crazy and venting corrosive gas onto the electronics.
In a case like that, we use the remote venting feature and vent the batteries
out the side of the boat.

Are the vent tube fittings fairly well exclusive to the Meridian Marine product
line?

"Yes, it's a very unique solution. It allows us to do rack mount installations.
Rather than have batteries stuck all around the engine room, we just weld up a
stainless rack, install a number of batteries on their sides, and use a single
vent for all of them."


Do Meridians make good starting batteries?

"Yes, because of the compression factor we have a tremendous amount of plate
area in the battery and that gives them excellent starting power. Take a look
at our 115-amp model for example. Most people would consider that a very
compact battery, it's 4 ¼ inches wide, and 15 inches long. We just did a refit
on a 150-foot Trinity, with a 53-litre, 1800 HP, 3512 Cat. The starting bank
consists of two of these batteries combined to create 24-volts."

"Take a look at our 210-amp model. As you can see, it is rated at 1830 cold
cranking amps, and most 8D's are rated at about 1200. We have about 50% more
cranking power, in a battery that occupies only half the space."

What are the sizes most commonly purchased by pleasure boaters?

"We just follow the standard marine ratings. We sell a lot of 115-amp, 130-amp,
and 210-amp batteries to boaters. By putting two of those 210-amp batteries
into a 8D box, all of a sudden you have created a 420-amp battery. Most of the
8D's are 200, 210 or 225 amps, depending upon who built the battery. The term
8D refers to case size. Our 210-amp battery is sort of in the middle, capacity
wise, with most of the 8D batteries on the market, but it's only half the size.
Putting two of these into the space traditionally occupied by an 8D creates a
battery that is about double most 8D units. That's why I ask people whether
they would prefer to have twice the power, or only use up half the space."

How about deep-cycle durability?

"Consider the typical, off-the-shelf flooded cell 8D battery. At 50% discharge,
you're looking at 200 to 250 recharge cycles before that battery is done. With
a Meridian, you can get over 800 cycles from 50% discharge. The deeper you
discharge a battery, the fewer cycles you are going to get. A standard 8D
discharged to 80% would be lucky to survive more than about 100 cycles. A
Meridian discharged to 80% will last for over 500 recharges."

How has the marine market responded to your product so far?

"Well, Boat Electric is a good example. They waited a little while and studied
the idea before they turned in their first stocking order. Sales in the Pacific
Northwest have exploded, with batteries all but flying out the door. Boaters
love these. We're now the OEM battery for Hinckley, Palmer Johnson, Direktor
Shipyards, Lyman Morse, and nearly all the high-speed, custom sport fish guys.

***

While most Pacific Northwest boaters won't be purchasing a Hinckley in the
immediate future, it's fun to realize that our boats could rather realistically
have a battery in common with such a prestigious craft. Next time the batteries
wear out, it might be well to consider a newly relevant question when replacing
them, "Do I want to use half the space, or enjoy double the power?"

Thanks for writing & posting this, Chuck.

Some scarce boating content for the NG, a screw-up detector for me.

My "executive editor" has a degree in English, but she doesn't know anything
about boats. Running something through here is useful. If ten guys say, "Hey!
What about this?" I can figure out whether it needs to be incorporated into or
removed from the text.

Very interesting reading. I am
a fan of old fashioned flooded cell batteries, but these are worth
looking into.

I am also a flooded cell fan. I would certainly consider batteries like these
if
I needed to get the maximum amount of power into a minimal amount of space.

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Double the Power, or Half the Space?

Can I assume, being into racing, these batteries are lighter per amp/hr
than conventional automotive batteries?
Dixon

Chuck, was that an advertisement? I read a lot of nice words, but didn't see
any
test results or other statistics to support the claims.


It was an interview, in which the subject responded to a request to talk about
his company and his product.

There's always a chance that the amp/hour ratings and CCA ratings printed on
the battery cases are blatant lies, but I doubt it. You can get two of these
into an existing 8D box, which is what the entire theme of the article (half
the space or twice the power) is about.

I take "Motorboating" and it has several articles a month about new
boats. All of the new boats are 'spectacular'. None have faults. Are there
any
magazines which actually compare different brands?



Usually not head to head. I subscribed to Poweboat Reports for a while, but
their editorial budget is almost non existent and they draw absolute
conclusions about items that are obviously very subjective. Many of the
considerations are pretty subjective. For example, most new boats have a shiny
gel coat. Does Brand A shine more than Brand B? Who knows? Does it matter as
long as both are really shiny? How big does "roomy" stateroom have to be? Etc.

There are also differences between a thorough, clinical test and a review of
general impressions and experiences while aboard. Sort of like the differences
between David Pascoe's "reviews" and an actual survey.

Take the battery article- you wanted "tests, statistics, charts, graphs, etc"
to back up the guy's claims about his batteries- but really beyond the amp hour
rating, physical case size, and CCA of the batteries he didn't make any claims
that
would have to be verified by an indpendent laboratory.

One of the challenges with boats is that the majority of gasoline powered boats
share the same mfgr's engines. Tough to rate one brand a lot higher on
mechanical reliability than another when so many major components are exactgly
the same. With some of the diesel boats, you might find a particular engine
throughout the production run, or you might find several.

Best way to compare, head to head, would be to save the "performance data
chart" (if there is one) from one issue to the next.

If you're lucky, you might learn enough about a product from a general article
to know whether or not you want to investigate it further, but nobody should
expect a magazine to tell them everything they need to know to make a decision
about any product. Boats and accessories included.

Gould,

I checked out Nor'westing Magazine and it appeared to be a first class
regional boating magazine. I was surprised to see your magazine selling
reprints of their reviews, you normally don't see regional boating magazines
having the leverage to allow them to sell their reviews as an additional
source of income. I have normally only seen this done with national
magazines. This speaks highly of the reputation of your magazine in the
northwest.

While it is great for boating magazines, it does highlight the importance of
understanding how boating magazines, including yours, make a profit. The
selling price of the magazine does not begin to cover the costs, so
advertising and selling reprints of the articles are the only way magazine
owners can make money. Since no one will pay to advertise in a magazine
that demeans their product, or pay for reprints of a poor review or PR
article, it is important that the consumer realize the real relationship
between boating magazines and boating suppliers. This is not an attack on
you or any boating magazine.

By the way, I also read a number of your reviews, and all I read had that
nice homey personal feel that I and many others like. It is like you are
talking to friends and family. So don't take any of my comments personally,
I like the articles you post in rec.boats I find them enjoyable and well
written.


"Jon Smithe" wrote in message news:...
Gould,

I was not trying to pick a fight with anyone, and was meant to support
your magazine position in running the infomercial.. I was responding to
someone's comment in which he said " Chuck, was that an advertisement?
I read a lot of nice words, but didn't
see any test results or other statistics to support the claims."

My reply was "It's a PR piece for a new product. "Articles" like this is
very common in
all boating magazines. .Normally they agree to run so many ads if the
magazine agrees to run the piece."

Your reply was "You don't know a goddam thing about boats, and don't even
begin to
insinuate you know anything about boating magazines."
In other posts you continue to make personal insults and were trying to
pick a fight. I continued to keep the discussion on topic about boating
magazines.

As far as you comment about the editor asking you to write the piece,
didn't you say your editor asked you to give the president of the company
a call? If not, how did you hear about the product and get the presidents
name and telephone number so you 'interview" him?

Even though you obviously was the one trying to start a fight, I have
deliberately stayed away from a fight and keep the discussion on topic.

As you can see from the all other replies everyone agreed that this is the
typical well written PR piece run by boating magazines.

Again, I am amazed at how upset you became when I made my supporting
comment. I have done everything to keep this on a discussion about
boating magazines, you have made this into a discussion of personalities
and not issues. According to your standards, repeated often in this NG,
that is only done when someone believes they have lost the argument.





"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Gould,
I hate to tell you this, but you are the one uniformed. The question is
why
are you so upset if your publisher asked you to write a "fluff" article

My publisher seldom asks me to write anything. I have full editorial
discretion.
That's a concept you probably wouldn't understand, as all you can seem to
write
are snide personal remarks about other people.

Why don't you get back over to the OT political threads where you belong,
and
stop trying to pick fights and start personal arguments in an on-topic
thread?

You want to bitch about my personal or political philosophies, fine. Do
it
where it's appropriate. Trying to hijack a thread into a personal
squabble is
*exactly* what your very favorite participant in the NG is famous for. Is
part
of your fixation on that person a burning desire to emulate his behavior?

It sounded like all
of the "reviews" in boating magazines.


It wasn't a product review, it was an informational interview and
represented
as such.

I'd think a guy who claims to be an expert
on writing and publishing, as well as a mind-reader, would know the
difference.