Hello :

I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo Penta
I/O.

Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is
telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming
down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while putting
the boat in the water at a launch ramp.

Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective engine
gasket.
IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to the
manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water ingestion.

I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder I/O
engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this allows
the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open, thus
sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have further
details ?

Thanks in advance !

Ralph

Is the mechanic saying that you came off plane and the water came over the
transom and was ingested by the fuel injection system? If so, you would
have noticed if you had ever had that problem, and even if the water flooded
the deck, I can not imagine it leaking into the fuel injection system. If
it will, you need to correct that leak, because you will always have water
in a boat. . I would not accept that answer from the dealer. You can
contact Volvo Penta directly at:

http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/glob...nited%20States




"Ralph Modica" wrote in message
...
Hello :

I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo
Penta
I/O.

Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is
telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while
coming
down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while
putting
the boat in the water at a launch ramp.

Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective
engine
gasket.
IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to
the
manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water
ingestion.

I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder
I/O
engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this
allows
the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open,
thus
sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have
further
details ?

Thanks in advance !

Ralph

Dr. Dr. Smithers wrote:
Is the mechanic saying that you came off plane and the water came over the
transom and was ingested by the fuel injection system? If so, you would
have noticed if you had ever had that problem, and even if the water flooded
the deck, I can not imagine it leaking into the fuel injection system. If
it will, you need to correct that leak, because you will always have water
in a boat. . I would not accept that answer from the dealer. You can
contact Volvo Penta directly at:

http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/glob...nited%20States




"Ralph Modica" wrote in message
...

Hello :

I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo
Penta
I/O.

Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is
telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while
coming
down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while
putting
the boat in the water at a launch ramp.

Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective
engine
gasket.
IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained to
the
manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water
ingestion.

I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder
I/O
engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this
allows
the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open,
thus
sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have
further
details ?

Thanks in advance !

Ralph




I don't know how the Volvo setup is designed, but I suspect the mechanic
is saying that the water slap on the transom pushed up into the exhaust
risers and then into a cylinder or two through the exhaust valves.

It ain't supposed to happen, but it can.

Eisboch

Yea, but if it was running the water would pretty much be expelled before a
noticable amount could get past the rings into the oil. Having said that it
is always advisable to back down slowly to avoid having the wake overwash
your tail.

As far as cam overlap I have about as much overlap with a crane cam in a sb
as possible with a wet exhaust and I still don't have water in the oil.

The question is how much water??? No water should be in the oil. Any more
than a little is really bad because it goes to the bottom of the oil pan and
that where your oil pump pick up is. And a very slight amount is usually
vaporized and vented. How did you find the water? While draining the oil?

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
Dr. Dr. Smithers wrote:
Is the mechanic saying that you came off plane and the water came over
the transom and was ingested by the fuel injection system? If so, you
would have noticed if you had ever had that problem, and even if the
water flooded the deck, I can not imagine it leaking into the fuel
injection system. If it will, you need to correct that leak, because you
will always have water in a boat. . I would not accept that answer
from the dealer. You can contact Volvo Penta directly at:

http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/glob...nited%20States




"Ralph Modica" wrote in message
...

Hello :

I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo
Penta
I/O.

Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic
is
telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while
coming
down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while
putting
the boat in the water at a launch ramp.

Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective
engine
gasket.
IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained
to the
manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water
ingestion.

I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder
I/O
engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this
allows
the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open,
thus
sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have
further
details ?

Thanks in advance !

Ralph




I don't know how the Volvo setup is designed, but I suspect the mechanic
is saying that the water slap on the transom pushed up into the exhaust
risers and then into a cylinder or two through the exhaust valves.

It ain't supposed to happen, but it can.

Eisboch

"Ralph Modica" wrote in message
...

Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic is
telling me this is "Normal"

I have owned a wide variety of boats and I have never had water get into the
engine.

and may occur if the boat ingests water while coming
down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while
putting
the boat in the water at a launch ramp.

While it is possible that water can get ingested into the engine the likely
scenario is that it gets sucked into the cylinders and hydrolocks the
engine. You would know it if this happened to you.


Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective
engine
gasket.

I think so too.

I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder
I/O
engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this
allows
the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open,
thus
sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have
further
details ?

I have never heard of this being a problem in a stock engine, but it can be
a problem with a modified engine. It is common for a "high performance"
engine to use a cam that has significant overlap between exhaust and intake.
The overlap really helps at the really high RPMs but it kills idle. These
are the engines that "lope" as they idle or simply won't idle below 1000 RPM
at all. Even in these engines it is only a problem if there is very little
drop distance from the elbow to the exhaust manifold. Again, if you sucked
water into the cylinder you would know it when you tried to start up again.

A more common hydrolock situation is the result of an engine that "runs on"
or "diesels" when you shut it down. It is common for these engines to
actually run backwards for a bit, which can really suck water up from the
exhaust. Again, first clue is that you can't crank the engine over again
until you pull the spark plugs and drain the water out.

No matter what, water in the oil is NOT normal.

Rod McInnis

To All :

Thanks for your quick responses.

The boat is a cabin cruiser with a swim platform on the transom ... water did
not splash over the transom and into the fuel injection system. Water
contamination was found on the dipstick during a pre-launch checkout.

The mechanic is telling me that water may have been sucked in through the
exhaust port - either from coming off plane too quickly (never happens) or may
have splashed up into the exhaust manifold area from being offloaded from the
ramp into the water. He said some manufacturers don't position the engine or
stringers right, so a boat may be more prone to taking on water even from just
being put into the water off the trailer. I've found some info from the BoatUS
consumer site that discusses water ingestion problems .. seems it's a design
flaw that required changes in the exhaust manifold to prevent back suction of
water into the exhaust valve area when it is still partially open during the
intake stroke.

I'm intending to pursue this issue with the manufacturer (LARSON) and Volvo.
Thanks to Dr.Smithers for the link to Volvo.

If I find the dealer and/or Volvo giving me a run-around for what looks like a
design deficiency, I may consider pursuing legal class-action, as I'm probably
not the only one who has been hit with this problem. For anyone out of
warranty, they'd be stuck with the repair bill for something that is due to poor
design. With the co$t of a boat, I don't expect to have to continue to pay
co$tly repair$ for something the manufacturer should have designed correctly in
the first place.

We found the water in oil condition during a routine pre-launch check ... I've
had many years of experience rebuilding automotive engines and readily
recognized the symptoms of water contamination. Further, I just don't buy the
"this is normal and/or expected" types of answers .. it IS a design flaw. Boats
are sold with an implied "fitness of purpose" to be used on the water. To tell
me that I shouldn't abruptly slow down or even worry about boat ramp loading
areas as a problem is unacceptable. In my "day job" I'm an computer engineer ..
if I were to tell someone they could only use their computers under strict
parameters, people would rightly tell me I'm being ridiculous. Boats SHOULD be
designed to function under the types of conditions expected for on-water use -
to have an inherent problem that causes water ingestion under too easy of
conditions is NOT proper design for what the boat was intended to do.

Thanks to all for the feedback !

Ralph




JamesgangNC wrote:

Yea, but if it was running the water would pretty much be expelled before a
noticable amount could get past the rings into the oil. Having said that it
is always advisable to back down slowly to avoid having the wake overwash
your tail.

As far as cam overlap I have about as much overlap with a crane cam in a sb
as possible with a wet exhaust and I still don't have water in the oil.

The question is how much water??? No water should be in the oil. Any more
than a little is really bad because it goes to the bottom of the oil pan and
that where your oil pump pick up is. And a very slight amount is usually
vaporized and vented. How did you find the water? While draining the oil?

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
Dr. Dr. Smithers wrote:
Is the mechanic saying that you came off plane and the water came over
the transom and was ingested by the fuel injection system? If so, you
would have noticed if you had ever had that problem, and even if the
water flooded the deck, I can not imagine it leaking into the fuel
injection system. If it will, you need to correct that leak, because you
will always have water in a boat. . I would not accept that answer
from the dealer. You can contact Volvo Penta directly at:

http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/glob...nited%20States




"Ralph Modica" wrote in message
...

Hello :

I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7 Volvo
Penta
I/O.

Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic
is
telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water while
coming
down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while
putting
the boat in the water at a launch ramp.

Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a defective
engine
gasket.
IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not complained
to the
manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water
ingestion.

I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo 8-cylinder
I/O
engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off - this
allows
the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open,
thus
sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or have
further
details ?

Thanks in advance !

Ralph




I don't know how the Volvo setup is designed, but I suspect the mechanic
is saying that the water slap on the transom pushed up into the exhaust
risers and then into a cylinder or two through the exhaust valves.

It ain't supposed to happen, but it can.

Eisboch

Ralph Modica wrote:
To All :

Thanks for your quick responses.

The boat is a cabin cruiser with a swim platform on the transom ... water did
not splash over the transom and into the fuel injection system. Water
contamination was found on the dipstick during a pre-launch checkout.

The mechanic is telling me that water may have been sucked in through the
exhaust port - either from coming off plane too quickly (never happens) or may
have splashed up into the exhaust manifold area from being offloaded from the
ramp into the water. He said some manufacturers don't position the engine or
stringers right, so a boat may be more prone to taking on water even from just
being put into the water off the trailer. I've found some info from the BoatUS
consumer site that discusses water ingestion problems .. seems it's a design
flaw that required changes in the exhaust manifold to prevent back suction of
water into the exhaust valve area when it is still partially open during the
intake stroke.

I'm intending to pursue this issue with the manufacturer (LARSON) and Volvo.
Thanks to Dr.Smithers for the link to Volvo.

If I find the dealer and/or Volvo giving me a run-around for what looks like a
design deficiency, I may consider pursuing legal class-action, as I'm probably
not the only one who has been hit with this problem. For anyone out of
warranty, they'd be stuck with the repair bill for something that is due to poor
design. With the co$t of a boat, I don't expect to have to continue to pay
co$tly repair$ for something the manufacturer should have designed correctly in
the first place.

We found the water in oil condition during a routine pre-launch check ... I've
had many years of experience rebuilding automotive engines and readily
recognized the symptoms of water contamination. Further, I just don't buy the
"this is normal and/or expected" types of answers .. it IS a design flaw. Boats
are sold with an implied "fitness of purpose" to be used on the water. To tell
me that I shouldn't abruptly slow down or even worry about boat ramp loading
areas as a problem is unacceptable. In my "day job" I'm an computer engineer ..
if I were to tell someone they could only use their computers under strict
parameters, people would rightly tell me I'm being ridiculous. Boats SHOULD be
designed to function under the types of conditions expected for on-water use -
to have an inherent problem that causes water ingestion under too easy of
conditions is NOT proper design for what the boat was intended to do.

Thanks to all for the feedback !

Ralph


The water in the oil is most likely not from the manifolds... this would
suggest a hydro-lock exposure... and would be a very unusual
circumstance on the Volvo I/O(especially this new). The Mercruiser, for
example, has a flapper in the leg to prevent power-off or reverse
intrusion(although it commonly fatigues & fails - & owners run the boats
in all kinds of conditions for years and never notice it has been gone
for a long time) and the Volvo likely has a similar protection feature.

Then, even if it does get past the leg, the risers are next. Unless the
manifolds have been severely ravaged by exposure/corrosion, cylinder
intrusion is unlikely in a properly operating running engine. Even
then, the mechanic is suggesting that the water then got past the
pistons & rings - highly improbable. The valve timing overlap is a
non-issue - that engine is of a relatively mild tune - more like an RV
cam grind for torque & low end grunt(under 5000 rpm power) not a radical
street/strip shaft.

The problem sounds like an intake manifold gasket, and it is not
"normal". How much water do you think it was in the mix? This is a GM
engine, but Volvo should be able to address the issue. The brand of
boat would seem to be irrelevant. Get it fixed under warranty... I'm
wondering if the mechanic or shop is trying to put off the job until he
can be paid an off-warranty rate for the work.

Rob

I agree with Rob on this one, I doubt it from exhaust reversion while
running. The cam is just way too mild for that.

Sometimes a lot of water getting back up the exhaust will leak past the
rings into the oil but in that situation you have to have the engine off
when the water enters the exhaust and stay off for a long time for the water
to leak past the rings. Seldom happens on a trailer boat. You launch, you
start the engine. Merc does have riser extenders for large boats where the
engine is mounted close to the water line. I don't know about Volvo.

I'd be looking for other sources like gaskets. Where are you located and
how often was the boat used this summer? Was it properly winterized last
winter? Have you drained the oil to determine the amount of water yet? The
total amount of water is really going to be a useful clue. When you say
water was found on the dipstick, you mean the white crud resulting from a
water/oil mix? Remove the oil filler cap and look there too. Does it live
outside on the trailer? Always stored with the bow high?

As to fitness of purpose I'm guessing maybe this is your first boat? Boats
are nothing like cars and they have a whole lot harder life that most
things. Combine that with the fact that most boat builders are more like a
cottage industry than a major manufacturer and you soon figure out why they
call boats a hole in the water you pour money into :-)

"Ralph Modica" wrote in message
...
To All :

Thanks for your quick responses.

The boat is a cabin cruiser with a swim platform on the transom ... water
did
not splash over the transom and into the fuel injection system. Water
contamination was found on the dipstick during a pre-launch checkout.

The mechanic is telling me that water may have been sucked in through the
exhaust port - either from coming off plane too quickly (never happens) or
may
have splashed up into the exhaust manifold area from being offloaded from
the
ramp into the water. He said some manufacturers don't position the engine
or
stringers right, so a boat may be more prone to taking on water even from
just
being put into the water off the trailer. I've found some info from the
BoatUS
consumer site that discusses water ingestion problems .. seems it's a
design
flaw that required changes in the exhaust manifold to prevent back suction
of
water into the exhaust valve area when it is still partially open during
the
intake stroke.

I'm intending to pursue this issue with the manufacturer (LARSON) and
Volvo.
Thanks to Dr.Smithers for the link to Volvo.

If I find the dealer and/or Volvo giving me a run-around for what looks
like a
design deficiency, I may consider pursuing legal class-action, as I'm
probably
not the only one who has been hit with this problem. For anyone out of
warranty, they'd be stuck with the repair bill for something that is due
to poor
design. With the co$t of a boat, I don't expect to have to continue to pay
co$tly repair$ for something the manufacturer should have designed
correctly in
the first place.

We found the water in oil condition during a routine pre-launch check ...
I've
had many years of experience rebuilding automotive engines and readily
recognized the symptoms of water contamination. Further, I just don't buy
the
"this is normal and/or expected" types of answers .. it IS a design flaw.
Boats
are sold with an implied "fitness of purpose" to be used on the water. To
tell
me that I shouldn't abruptly slow down or even worry about boat ramp
loading
areas as a problem is unacceptable. In my "day job" I'm an computer
engineer ..
if I were to tell someone they could only use their computers under strict
parameters, people would rightly tell me I'm being ridiculous. Boats
SHOULD be
designed to function under the types of conditions expected for on-water
use -
to have an inherent problem that causes water ingestion under too easy of
conditions is NOT proper design for what the boat was intended to do.

Thanks to all for the feedback !

Ralph




JamesgangNC wrote:

Yea, but if it was running the water would pretty much be expelled before
a
noticable amount could get past the rings into the oil. Having said that
it
is always advisable to back down slowly to avoid having the wake overwash
your tail.

As far as cam overlap I have about as much overlap with a crane cam in a
sb
as possible with a wet exhaust and I still don't have water in the oil.

The question is how much water??? No water should be in the oil. Any
more
than a little is really bad because it goes to the bottom of the oil pan
and
that where your oil pump pick up is. And a very slight amount is usually
vaporized and vented. How did you find the water? While draining the
oil?

"Eisboch" wrote in message
...
Dr. Dr. Smithers wrote:
Is the mechanic saying that you came off plane and the water came over
the transom and was ingested by the fuel injection system? If so, you
would have noticed if you had ever had that problem, and even if the
water flooded the deck, I can not imagine it leaking into the fuel
injection system. If it will, you need to correct that leak, because
you
will always have water in a boat. . I would not accept that answer
from the dealer. You can contact Volvo Penta directly at:

http://www.volvo.com/volvopenta/glob...nited%20States




"Ralph Modica" wrote in message
...

Hello :

I have a 2003 Larson Cabrio 254 Cabin Crusier w/73 hours on the 5.7
Volvo
Penta
I/O.

Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's
mechanic
is
telling me this is "Normal" and may occur if the boat ingests water
while
coming
down off-plane too rapidly or even if water is splashed too high while
putting
the boat in the water at a launch ramp.

Seems this is TOO easy an "explanation" for what I think is a
defective
engine
gasket.
IF this IS something common, I'm amazed more people have not
complained
to the
manufacturer's about designing their boats better to avoid water
ingestion.

I've also heard water ingestion is a common problem on Volvo
8-cylinder
I/O
engines. There is apparently a problem with valve timing being off -
this
allows
the intake stroke to pull vacuum while an exhaust valve is still open,
thus
sucking water into the cylinders. Has anyone here heard of this or
have
further
details ?

Thanks in advance !

Ralph




I don't know how the Volvo setup is designed, but I suspect the
mechanic
is saying that the water slap on the transom pushed up into the exhaust
risers and then into a cylinder or two through the exhaust valves.

It ain't supposed to happen, but it can.

Eisboch

Risers are too short for the engine/hull configuration. You'll never get the
dealer to admit it, but check around with other owners of your hull/engine
combo in your area and see who else has the same tbl.
Best of luck
Mike

"rmcinnis" wrote in message
...

"Ralph Modica" wrote in message
...

Have recently discovered water in the engine oil. The dealer's mechanic
is
telling me this is "Normal"

I have owned a wide variety of boats and I have never had water get into
the
engine.

A very tiny amount of water in the oil is normal but NOT GOOD. A byproduct
of combustion is water. You see it dripping out of the tailpipes of cars
when they are cold and a fog when warmer. Some of this water gets by the
rings and winds up in the engine. It's important that the engine get hot
and stay hot for enough time to drive the water out of the oil.

Now as to the amount, there should NEVER be a change in the color of the oil
because of the water in it. If there is then you have a bad head gasket or a
cracked block. It's common for head gaskets to leak thus the recommended
stop leak in automotive cars. Since boats usually use raw water cooling you
can't put stop leak in the cooling system. All you can do is tighten the
head gaskets and hope it stops. IF not then new head gasket(s) are needed.