OK, Gene. You've had your own machine shop, so you have the skills to
machine and assemble the parts. Go hire some R&D engineers, some marketing
people, and some procurement individuals that'll obtain the special alloys,
bearings, seals, and plastics you'll need, and build me a 225 hp four-stroke
(no patent infringements! Better hire a patent attorney!) that costs less
than $21,000. Oh yeah...and you have to pay yourself a salary too.
Afterall, the managers at Yamaha aren't working for free.


Your posts are beginning to border on the edge of absurdity.

P.S.--Better arrange for a BIG line of credit, 'cause you'll need it.





"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 00:09:18 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:49:11 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:


"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:50:49 GMT, "NOYB" wrote:


Sure they are. So to get the most bang for your buck, you
sometimes
have
to
take advantage of a company's "dumping" practices and buy their
undervalued
outboard...like you did with the Suzuki's. They're terrific
engines
and
would be priced closer to Merc and Yamaha if Suzuki wasn't trying
to
gain
market share via dumping.


Explain to me again how (1) outboards are overpriced and (2) Suzuki
is
"dumping" them for what they ought to sell for anyway.....

My brother bought a Suzuki 140 for 3 grand less than a comparable
Yamaha.
Is it possible that the Suzuki was $1500 below reasonable market
value...and
the Yamaha was $1500 too expensive?

And *I'm* the "binary thinker"?


No, you just aren't thinking. Anybody that thinks $21,000 for a gear
case and a six cylinder engine makes sense needs help.


Anybody that doesn't understand the principal of economies of scale needs
help.


Again, you are adrift in a sea of contradiction. Well, we can take
this one several ways....

Assuming this is about "economy of scale" maybe that is why my
Suzuki's cost about half of what Yamahas cost... they are made from
automobile parts.....

Honda did the same thing, but their engines are priced close to
Yamaha. It seems to be widely accepted here that Yamaha sells more
engines than anybody... so they should be cheaper than Suzuki. From
what I can tell, Suzuki sells for about the same amount (adjusted for
currency) worldwide. So much for "economy of scale."

Again, it shouldn't take a brain surgeon (or a dentist) to understand
that no six cylinder engine coupled with any sort of normal gearbox
should sell for $21,000.00. I've worked in Machine Shops and Foundries
all of my life.... ran my own machine shop for 22 years.... and I can
assure you.. quantity or no, none of the materials, processes, or
assemblies justify what is being asked by the manufacturers. Pure and
simple..... it is considered a luxury item and is priced as such...
especially in this country.

--



Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC.

http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/
Homepage
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/directions.asp Where
Southport,NC is located.
http://www.southharbourvillage.com/autoupdater.htm Real Time
Pictures at My Marina
http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats
at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide
http://www.cafeshops.com/recdotboats Shameless
Commercial Plug for Lee's Rec.Boats Clothing

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...
Assuming this is about "economy of scale" maybe that is why my
Suzuki's cost about half of what Yamahas cost... they are made from
automobile parts.....

Or *maybe* Suzuki is "dumping" their products over here?


Honda did the same thing, but their engines are priced close to
Yamaha. It seems to be widely accepted here that Yamaha sells more
engines than anybody... so they should be cheaper than Suzuki.

They *should*...but they aren't. Which means that Suzuki is probably
dumping.

From
what I can tell, Suzuki sells for about the same amount (adjusted for
currency) worldwide. So much for "economy of scale."

"From what you can tell"? Show me where Suzuki is selling for the same
price in Japan as it is in the States.




Again, it shouldn't take a brain surgeon (or a dentist) to understand
that no six cylinder engine coupled with any sort of normal gearbox
should sell for $21,000.00.

That's where you're wrong. R&D, sales and marketing, procurement, etc. all
go into the cost of that outboard. When the Yamaha 225 Four-stroke was
introduced, I had heard that it would take 7 years before Yamaha would even
"break-even" on that motor (to make up for all the R&D costs). That is part
of the reason why they shared the technology with Mercury. In return,
Mercury was supposed to supply to Yamaha the R&D for a new 300hp that
Mercury is working on. With the new "dumping" suit filed about 3 weeks ago,
I'm not sure those plans are still a go.


worked in Machine Shops and Foundries
all of my life.... ran my own machine shop for 22 years.... and I can
assure you.. quantity or no, none of the materials, processes, or
assemblies justify what is being asked by the manufacturers. Pure and
simple..... it is considered a luxury item and is priced as such...
especially in this country.


"...priced as such...especially in this country?" You said before that
Suzuki's sell for the same price everywhere. Do they or don't they?

Gene Kearns wrote:


Again, it shouldn't take a brain surgeon (or a dentist) to understand
that no six cylinder engine coupled with any sort of normal gearbox
should sell for $21,000.00. I've worked in Machine Shops and Foundries
all of my life.... ran my own machine shop for 22 years.... and I can
assure you.. quantity or no, none of the materials, processes, or
assemblies justify what is being asked by the manufacturers. Pure and
simple..... it is considered a luxury item and is priced as such...
especially in this country.


Agree. Many items are priced according to what the market will pay, not
by what it costs to produce them. Outboards are *way* overpriced.

-- Charlie


----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups
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"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...


In fact, you are so incredibly right, again, I don't know why I waste
my time being so wrong. I'll be more careful in the future....


Well, well, well. Finally, you're right about something.

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...
OK, Gene. You've had your own machine shop, so you have the skills to
machine and assemble the parts. Go hire some R&D engineers, some
marketing
people, and some procurement individuals that'll obtain the special
alloys,
bearings, seals, and plastics you'll need, and build me a 225 hp
four-stroke
(no patent infringements! Better hire a patent attorney!) that costs less
than $21,000. Oh yeah...and you have to pay yourself a salary too.
Afterall, the managers at Yamaha aren't working for free.


Your posts are beginning to border on the edge of absurdity.

P.S.--Better arrange for a BIG line of credit, 'cause you'll need it.




Your post is the absurd one. You can buy all the parts for an engine for a
lot less than 5k. You could buy everything, and cast a block and still be
in maybe 10k and thats quantity one. Why does a motor cycle, costs less
than an outboard. And they are not making that many more bikes than O/Bs.
Add in all the other small engines they, especially Honda, produce and you
can see where the O/B is very much overpriced. My Yamaha T-8 is probably
about $2800 list. I paid $2300. A small 8 hp fourstoke. I can buy a 6 hp
lawnmower for about $250 and that includes about $60 in government mandated
safety equipment and loads of cost of liability insurance if some dodo cuts
off his toes. My gearbox should cost $2550? The big Honda is the same
engine as one of the passenger cars, with a drysump added to run on end.
And that engine does not cost $10k. Hell, a Ford Powerstroke is only about
$7500 complete. Same with Volvo and Yanmar diesels. $20k to power the
boat? I am buying a new 2004 Chevy LT crew cab 4x4 duramax. About $42k.
Leather, CD changer, etc. And it is also overpriced! But Chevy can get the
$$$$.

grin, do you always get these people to bite so easily?


"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...


In fact, you are so incredibly right, again, I don't know why I waste
my time being so wrong. I'll be more careful in the future....


Well, well, well. Finally, you're right about something.

Bill,
How many cars are able to make 225 hp out of a 2.0 liter engine...thus
getting 112.5 hp/liter? How many of 'em run their engines at nearly
80-90% of redline continuously for extended periods of time?

You can buy a Cadillac CTS for about $32k. If you want the CTS-V (400hp
Corvette engine in it), expect to cough up another $18k. Now, we both know
that the parts in the bigger engine can't cost *that* much more. You're
paying for technology. You don't have to pay $21k for an outboard...unless
you want the latest technology. A Yammie 200hp OX66 can be bought for half
of that. I said it befo it will take 7 years for Yamaha to recoup the
R&D costs on the 225 four-stroke. You're paying for the technology...not
the parts and pieces.

BTW--Your example about a lawnmower engine is ridiculous. If the
technological standard of a lawnmower engine was on par with a four-stroke
Yammie, everyone would be strapping a Lawn-boy to the stern of their boat.


"Calif Bill" wrote in message
nk.net...

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...
OK, Gene. You've had your own machine shop, so you have the skills to
machine and assemble the parts. Go hire some R&D engineers, some
marketing
people, and some procurement individuals that'll obtain the special
alloys,
bearings, seals, and plastics you'll need, and build me a 225 hp
four-stroke
(no patent infringements! Better hire a patent attorney!) that costs
less
than $21,000. Oh yeah...and you have to pay yourself a salary too.
Afterall, the managers at Yamaha aren't working for free.


Your posts are beginning to border on the edge of absurdity.

P.S.--Better arrange for a BIG line of credit, 'cause you'll need it.




Your post is the absurd one. You can buy all the parts for an engine for
a
lot less than 5k. You could buy everything, and cast a block and still be
in maybe 10k and thats quantity one. Why does a motor cycle, costs less
than an outboard. And they are not making that many more bikes than O/Bs.
Add in all the other small engines they, especially Honda, produce and you
can see where the O/B is very much overpriced. My Yamaha T-8 is probably
about $2800 list. I paid $2300. A small 8 hp fourstoke. I can buy a 6
hp
lawnmower for about $250 and that includes about $60 in government
mandated
safety equipment and loads of cost of liability insurance if some dodo
cuts
off his toes. My gearbox should cost $2550? The big Honda is the same
engine as one of the passenger cars, with a drysump added to run on end.
And that engine does not cost $10k. Hell, a Ford Powerstroke is only
about
$7500 complete. Same with Volvo and Yanmar diesels. $20k to power the
boat? I am buying a new 2004 Chevy LT crew cab 4x4 duramax. About $42k.
Leather, CD changer, etc. And it is also overpriced! But Chevy can get
the
$$$$.

So can Yamaha and Mercury.

It's usually not this easy. Just tonight, alone, I've been called a
"****ing dweeb" and an "idiot" by two guys that are usually pretty
mild-mannered. I surmise that they were Dean supporters...and they're not
in too good a mood right now after Iowa and New Hampshire.




"fred" wrote in message
news:_blSb.54340$U%5.319066@attbi_s03...
grin, do you always get these people to bite so easily?


"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...

"Gene Kearns" wrote in message
...


In fact, you are so incredibly right, again, I don't know why I waste
my time being so wrong. I'll be more careful in the future....


Well, well, well. Finally, you're right about something.

"NOYB" wrote in message
nk.net...
It's usually not this easy. Just tonight, alone, I've been called a
"****ing dweeb" and an "idiot" by two guys that are usually pretty
mild-mannered. I surmise that they were Dean supporters...and they're not
in too good a mood right now after Iowa and New Hampshire.


Oh yeah...
And Gene is ****ed that his boat is too wide for its length.

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...
Bill,
How many cars are able to make 225 hp out of a 2.0 liter engine...thus
getting 112.5 hp/liter? How many of 'em run their engines at nearly
80-90% of redline continuously for extended periods of time?

You can buy a Cadillac CTS for about $32k. If you want the CTS-V (400hp
Corvette engine in it), expect to cough up another $18k. Now, we both
know
that the parts in the bigger engine can't cost *that* much more. You're
paying for technology. You don't have to pay $21k for an
outboard...unless
you want the latest technology. A Yammie 200hp OX66 can be bought for
half
of that. I said it befo it will take 7 years for Yamaha to recoup the
R&D costs on the 225 four-stroke. You're paying for the technology...not
the parts and pieces.

BTW--Your example about a lawnmower engine is ridiculous. If the
technological standard of a lawnmower engine was on par with a four-stroke
Yammie, everyone would be strapping a Lawn-boy to the stern of their boat.


"Calif Bill" wrote in message
nk.net...

"NOYB" wrote in message
ink.net...
OK, Gene. You've had your own machine shop, so you have the skills to
machine and assemble the parts. Go hire some R&D engineers, some
marketing
people, and some procurement individuals that'll obtain the special
alloys,
bearings, seals, and plastics you'll need, and build me a 225 hp
four-stroke
(no patent infringements! Better hire a patent attorney!) that costs
less
than $21,000. Oh yeah...and you have to pay yourself a salary too.
Afterall, the managers at Yamaha aren't working for free.


Your posts are beginning to border on the edge of absurdity.

P.S.--Better arrange for a BIG line of credit, 'cause you'll need it.




Your post is the absurd one. You can buy all the parts for an engine
for
a
lot less than 5k. You could buy everything, and cast a block and still
be
in maybe 10k and thats quantity one. Why does a motor cycle, costs less
than an outboard. And they are not making that many more bikes than
O/Bs.
Add in all the other small engines they, especially Honda, produce and
you
can see where the O/B is very much overpriced. My Yamaha T-8 is
probably
about $2800 list. I paid $2300. A small 8 hp fourstoke. I can buy a 6
hp
lawnmower for about $250 and that includes about $60 in government
mandated
safety equipment and loads of cost of liability insurance if some dodo
cuts
off his toes. My gearbox should cost $2550? The big Honda is the same
engine as one of the passenger cars, with a drysump added to run on end.
And that engine does not cost $10k. Hell, a Ford Powerstroke is only
about
$7500 complete. Same with Volvo and Yanmar diesels. $20k to power the
boat? I am buying a new 2004 Chevy LT crew cab 4x4 duramax. About
$42k.
Leather, CD changer, etc. And it is also overpriced! But Chevy can get
the
$$$$.

So can Yamaha and Mercury.



The technology of the lawnmower is close to the Yamaha. Tighter tolerances
and more beef in a few places but still close. My T-8 is carbed, same as
the lawnmower. Honda's use a car engine in their big O/B's. Infinity
engine I think. They can get the price, so they do. Where do you get 7
years for the R&D payoff? They are using that R&D all through the line, and
what is the R&D budget? Compared to sales?
Bill