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#31
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OK, Gene. You've had your own machine shop, so you have the skills to
machine and assemble the parts. Go hire some R&D engineers, some marketing people, and some procurement individuals that'll obtain the special alloys, bearings, seals, and plastics you'll need, and build me a 225 hp four-stroke (no patent infringements! Better hire a patent attorney!) that costs less than $21,000. Oh yeah...and you have to pay yourself a salary too. Afterall, the managers at Yamaha aren't working for free. Your posts are beginning to border on the edge of absurdity. P.S.--Better arrange for a BIG line of credit, 'cause you'll need it. "Gene Kearns" wrote in message ... On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 00:09:18 GMT, "NOYB" wrote: "Gene Kearns" wrote in message .. . On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 17:49:11 GMT, "NOYB" wrote: "Gene Kearns" wrote in message .. . On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 19:50:49 GMT, "NOYB" wrote: Sure they are. So to get the most bang for your buck, you sometimes have to take advantage of a company's "dumping" practices and buy their undervalued outboard...like you did with the Suzuki's. They're terrific engines and would be priced closer to Merc and Yamaha if Suzuki wasn't trying to gain market share via dumping. Explain to me again how (1) outboards are overpriced and (2) Suzuki is "dumping" them for what they ought to sell for anyway..... My brother bought a Suzuki 140 for 3 grand less than a comparable Yamaha. Is it possible that the Suzuki was $1500 below reasonable market value...and the Yamaha was $1500 too expensive? And *I'm* the "binary thinker"? No, you just aren't thinking. Anybody that thinks $21,000 for a gear case and a six cylinder engine makes sense needs help. Anybody that doesn't understand the principal of economies of scale needs help. Again, you are adrift in a sea of contradiction. Well, we can take this one several ways.... Assuming this is about "economy of scale" maybe that is why my Suzuki's cost about half of what Yamahas cost... they are made from automobile parts..... Honda did the same thing, but their engines are priced close to Yamaha. It seems to be widely accepted here that Yamaha sells more engines than anybody... so they should be cheaper than Suzuki. From what I can tell, Suzuki sells for about the same amount (adjusted for currency) worldwide. So much for "economy of scale." Again, it shouldn't take a brain surgeon (or a dentist) to understand that no six cylinder engine coupled with any sort of normal gearbox should sell for $21,000.00. I've worked in Machine Shops and Foundries all of my life.... ran my own machine shop for 22 years.... and I can assure you.. quantity or no, none of the materials, processes, or assemblies justify what is being asked by the manufacturers. Pure and simple..... it is considered a luxury item and is priced as such... especially in this country. -- Grady-White Gulfstream, out of Southport, NC. http://myworkshop.idleplay.net/cavern/ Homepage http://www.southharbourvillage.com/directions.asp Where Southport,NC is located. http://www.southharbourvillage.com/autoupdater.htm Real Time Pictures at My Marina http://www.thebayguide.com/rec.boats Rec.boats at Lee Yeaton's Bayguide http://www.cafeshops.com/recdotboats Shameless Commercial Plug for Lee's Rec.Boats Clothing |
#32
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![]() "Gene Kearns" wrote in message ... Assuming this is about "economy of scale" maybe that is why my Suzuki's cost about half of what Yamahas cost... they are made from automobile parts..... Or *maybe* Suzuki is "dumping" their products over here? Honda did the same thing, but their engines are priced close to Yamaha. It seems to be widely accepted here that Yamaha sells more engines than anybody... so they should be cheaper than Suzuki. They *should*...but they aren't. Which means that Suzuki is probably dumping. From what I can tell, Suzuki sells for about the same amount (adjusted for currency) worldwide. So much for "economy of scale." "From what you can tell"? Show me where Suzuki is selling for the same price in Japan as it is in the States. Again, it shouldn't take a brain surgeon (or a dentist) to understand that no six cylinder engine coupled with any sort of normal gearbox should sell for $21,000.00. That's where you're wrong. R&D, sales and marketing, procurement, etc. all go into the cost of that outboard. When the Yamaha 225 Four-stroke was introduced, I had heard that it would take 7 years before Yamaha would even "break-even" on that motor (to make up for all the R&D costs). That is part of the reason why they shared the technology with Mercury. In return, Mercury was supposed to supply to Yamaha the R&D for a new 300hp that Mercury is working on. With the new "dumping" suit filed about 3 weeks ago, I'm not sure those plans are still a go. worked in Machine Shops and Foundries all of my life.... ran my own machine shop for 22 years.... and I can assure you.. quantity or no, none of the materials, processes, or assemblies justify what is being asked by the manufacturers. Pure and simple..... it is considered a luxury item and is priced as such... especially in this country. "...priced as such...especially in this country?" You said before that Suzuki's sell for the same price everywhere. Do they or don't they? |
#33
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![]() Gene Kearns wrote: Again, it shouldn't take a brain surgeon (or a dentist) to understand that no six cylinder engine coupled with any sort of normal gearbox should sell for $21,000.00. I've worked in Machine Shops and Foundries all of my life.... ran my own machine shop for 22 years.... and I can assure you.. quantity or no, none of the materials, processes, or assemblies justify what is being asked by the manufacturers. Pure and simple..... it is considered a luxury item and is priced as such... especially in this country. Agree. Many items are priced according to what the market will pay, not by what it costs to produce them. Outboards are *way* overpriced. -- Charlie ----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==---- http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 100,000 Newsgroups ---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =--- |
#34
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![]() "Gene Kearns" wrote in message ... In fact, you are so incredibly right, again, I don't know why I waste my time being so wrong. I'll be more careful in the future.... Well, well, well. Finally, you're right about something. |
#35
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![]() "NOYB" wrote in message ink.net... OK, Gene. You've had your own machine shop, so you have the skills to machine and assemble the parts. Go hire some R&D engineers, some marketing people, and some procurement individuals that'll obtain the special alloys, bearings, seals, and plastics you'll need, and build me a 225 hp four-stroke (no patent infringements! Better hire a patent attorney!) that costs less than $21,000. Oh yeah...and you have to pay yourself a salary too. Afterall, the managers at Yamaha aren't working for free. Your posts are beginning to border on the edge of absurdity. P.S.--Better arrange for a BIG line of credit, 'cause you'll need it. Your post is the absurd one. You can buy all the parts for an engine for a lot less than 5k. You could buy everything, and cast a block and still be in maybe 10k and thats quantity one. Why does a motor cycle, costs less than an outboard. And they are not making that many more bikes than O/Bs. Add in all the other small engines they, especially Honda, produce and you can see where the O/B is very much overpriced. My Yamaha T-8 is probably about $2800 list. I paid $2300. A small 8 hp fourstoke. I can buy a 6 hp lawnmower for about $250 and that includes about $60 in government mandated safety equipment and loads of cost of liability insurance if some dodo cuts off his toes. My gearbox should cost $2550? The big Honda is the same engine as one of the passenger cars, with a drysump added to run on end. And that engine does not cost $10k. Hell, a Ford Powerstroke is only about $7500 complete. Same with Volvo and Yanmar diesels. $20k to power the boat? I am buying a new 2004 Chevy LT crew cab 4x4 duramax. About $42k. Leather, CD changer, etc. And it is also overpriced! But Chevy can get the $$$$. |
#36
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grin, do you always get these people to bite so easily?
"NOYB" wrote in message ink.net... "Gene Kearns" wrote in message ... In fact, you are so incredibly right, again, I don't know why I waste my time being so wrong. I'll be more careful in the future.... Well, well, well. Finally, you're right about something. |
#37
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Bill,
How many cars are able to make 225 hp out of a 2.0 liter engine...thus getting 112.5 hp/liter? How many of 'em run their engines at nearly 80-90% of redline continuously for extended periods of time? You can buy a Cadillac CTS for about $32k. If you want the CTS-V (400hp Corvette engine in it), expect to cough up another $18k. Now, we both know that the parts in the bigger engine can't cost *that* much more. You're paying for technology. You don't have to pay $21k for an outboard...unless you want the latest technology. A Yammie 200hp OX66 can be bought for half of that. I said it befo it will take 7 years for Yamaha to recoup the R&D costs on the 225 four-stroke. You're paying for the technology...not the parts and pieces. BTW--Your example about a lawnmower engine is ridiculous. If the technological standard of a lawnmower engine was on par with a four-stroke Yammie, everyone would be strapping a Lawn-boy to the stern of their boat. "Calif Bill" wrote in message nk.net... "NOYB" wrote in message ink.net... OK, Gene. You've had your own machine shop, so you have the skills to machine and assemble the parts. Go hire some R&D engineers, some marketing people, and some procurement individuals that'll obtain the special alloys, bearings, seals, and plastics you'll need, and build me a 225 hp four-stroke (no patent infringements! Better hire a patent attorney!) that costs less than $21,000. Oh yeah...and you have to pay yourself a salary too. Afterall, the managers at Yamaha aren't working for free. Your posts are beginning to border on the edge of absurdity. P.S.--Better arrange for a BIG line of credit, 'cause you'll need it. Your post is the absurd one. You can buy all the parts for an engine for a lot less than 5k. You could buy everything, and cast a block and still be in maybe 10k and thats quantity one. Why does a motor cycle, costs less than an outboard. And they are not making that many more bikes than O/Bs. Add in all the other small engines they, especially Honda, produce and you can see where the O/B is very much overpriced. My Yamaha T-8 is probably about $2800 list. I paid $2300. A small 8 hp fourstoke. I can buy a 6 hp lawnmower for about $250 and that includes about $60 in government mandated safety equipment and loads of cost of liability insurance if some dodo cuts off his toes. My gearbox should cost $2550? The big Honda is the same engine as one of the passenger cars, with a drysump added to run on end. And that engine does not cost $10k. Hell, a Ford Powerstroke is only about $7500 complete. Same with Volvo and Yanmar diesels. $20k to power the boat? I am buying a new 2004 Chevy LT crew cab 4x4 duramax. About $42k. Leather, CD changer, etc. And it is also overpriced! But Chevy can get the $$$$. So can Yamaha and Mercury. |
#38
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It's usually not this easy. Just tonight, alone, I've been called a
"****ing dweeb" and an "idiot" by two guys that are usually pretty mild-mannered. I surmise that they were Dean supporters...and they're not in too good a mood right now after Iowa and New Hampshire. "fred" wrote in message news:_blSb.54340$U%5.319066@attbi_s03... grin, do you always get these people to bite so easily? "NOYB" wrote in message ink.net... "Gene Kearns" wrote in message ... In fact, you are so incredibly right, again, I don't know why I waste my time being so wrong. I'll be more careful in the future.... Well, well, well. Finally, you're right about something. |
#39
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![]() "NOYB" wrote in message nk.net... It's usually not this easy. Just tonight, alone, I've been called a "****ing dweeb" and an "idiot" by two guys that are usually pretty mild-mannered. I surmise that they were Dean supporters...and they're not in too good a mood right now after Iowa and New Hampshire. Oh yeah... And Gene is ****ed that his boat is too wide for its length. |
#40
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![]() "NOYB" wrote in message ink.net... Bill, How many cars are able to make 225 hp out of a 2.0 liter engine...thus getting 112.5 hp/liter? How many of 'em run their engines at nearly 80-90% of redline continuously for extended periods of time? You can buy a Cadillac CTS for about $32k. If you want the CTS-V (400hp Corvette engine in it), expect to cough up another $18k. Now, we both know that the parts in the bigger engine can't cost *that* much more. You're paying for technology. You don't have to pay $21k for an outboard...unless you want the latest technology. A Yammie 200hp OX66 can be bought for half of that. I said it befo it will take 7 years for Yamaha to recoup the R&D costs on the 225 four-stroke. You're paying for the technology...not the parts and pieces. BTW--Your example about a lawnmower engine is ridiculous. If the technological standard of a lawnmower engine was on par with a four-stroke Yammie, everyone would be strapping a Lawn-boy to the stern of their boat. "Calif Bill" wrote in message nk.net... "NOYB" wrote in message ink.net... OK, Gene. You've had your own machine shop, so you have the skills to machine and assemble the parts. Go hire some R&D engineers, some marketing people, and some procurement individuals that'll obtain the special alloys, bearings, seals, and plastics you'll need, and build me a 225 hp four-stroke (no patent infringements! Better hire a patent attorney!) that costs less than $21,000. Oh yeah...and you have to pay yourself a salary too. Afterall, the managers at Yamaha aren't working for free. Your posts are beginning to border on the edge of absurdity. P.S.--Better arrange for a BIG line of credit, 'cause you'll need it. Your post is the absurd one. You can buy all the parts for an engine for a lot less than 5k. You could buy everything, and cast a block and still be in maybe 10k and thats quantity one. Why does a motor cycle, costs less than an outboard. And they are not making that many more bikes than O/Bs. Add in all the other small engines they, especially Honda, produce and you can see where the O/B is very much overpriced. My Yamaha T-8 is probably about $2800 list. I paid $2300. A small 8 hp fourstoke. I can buy a 6 hp lawnmower for about $250 and that includes about $60 in government mandated safety equipment and loads of cost of liability insurance if some dodo cuts off his toes. My gearbox should cost $2550? The big Honda is the same engine as one of the passenger cars, with a drysump added to run on end. And that engine does not cost $10k. Hell, a Ford Powerstroke is only about $7500 complete. Same with Volvo and Yanmar diesels. $20k to power the boat? I am buying a new 2004 Chevy LT crew cab 4x4 duramax. About $42k. Leather, CD changer, etc. And it is also overpriced! But Chevy can get the $$$$. So can Yamaha and Mercury. The technology of the lawnmower is close to the Yamaha. Tighter tolerances and more beef in a few places but still close. My T-8 is carbed, same as the lawnmower. Honda's use a car engine in their big O/B's. Infinity engine I think. They can get the price, so they do. Where do you get 7 years for the R&D payoff? They are using that R&D all through the line, and what is the R&D budget? Compared to sales? Bill |
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