Hi bb,

All my apologies if my posts offended you. They weren't targeted at you
nor at any other poster here. I actually value your post, even if my
opinion isn't relevant on this public thread where anything goes. You
have discussed the issue at hand: boat prices - not who's mother
doesn't like a certain poster, etc. It was the totally off topic posts
which ticked me off, especially as I read quite a few in a row. I'm
glad some are in short term mode and should automatically disappear
after x number of days at the poster's request. It will make such a
thread more coherent to anyone coming along later and interested in the
topic of boat prices.

I'm new here, and thus not at all accustomed to they way communiction
goes, especially when several members have scores to settle. All I
asked is for them to "step outside" to deal with conflicts unrelated to
this subject.

I happen to agree with you about the attitude of squeezing unfair deals
out of sellers as being at least as unacceptable as squeezing unfair
amounts of money from buyers for boats which are worn and torn. Fair
prices are important, in human terms. You state quite justly that
nobody deserves to get ripped off, whatever their role in a
transaction.

However, with market forces governing prices (regulated prices don't
really seem to work in some cases) what often tends to happen is an
excessive pendulum motion between supply and demand. When it is a
sellers market, sellers (and brokers) tend to try to get as high a
price as the market will bear, even if to an outsider it might seem
excessive. As long as someone is ready to pay, who is to complain?

This is the view of "Contractarian Ethics" in which a contract is the
only measure of what is right and wrong. However, when a contract
defies your own values by being too non conforming to what you hold to
be minimum standards, then you might be entitled to view the contract
as "wrong" or "unfair", even if each party directly involved agrees. To
make my point in an exagerated way, selling an inflatable mattress for
$10,000 to a very uneducated buyer could seem wrong to some people,
while to others, if the buyer is happy with his mattress, it is none of
anyone else's business.

In a buyer's market, when there are many boats for sale and few buyers
to be found, buyers may tend to try to wrench sellers to the ground
prying their boats out of their hands for pocket change. This, of
course similar to a seller's behavior in a seller's market. And the
same issue of responsible behavior towards others in a transaction is
at the heart of the problem.

What seems to be in question is:

- if the price is made between consenting parties, does that make it a
fair price? (we remember the widowed grandmother suckered into
practically giving away her regretted husband's boat)

- if it is a seller's market, is it plausible that (as many banks and
insurance agencies say today) most boats tend to be overpriced?

- if it is a buyer's market, is it plausible that we consider most
boats as being underpriced?

Boat prices seems to be tributary to many factors:

Technical constraints: presence of navigable waters, availablity of
fuel and fuel pricing, availability of disposable income to purchase
leisure craft, credit reserves and interest rates, size of the boat
park correlated to the number of potential purchasers, taxation,
storage and maintenance costs, etc.

Psychological and sociocultural factors: attractiveness of maritime
activities, attitude towards watersports, lifestyle associations with
specific types of boats, social status implications, object fascination
with boats, and not in the least affective emotional attachement to a
boat, etc.

In my earlier postings I was not trashing sellers or brokers. We can
all observe that totally free markets tend to obey the logic of
anything that the market will bear will be the market price - even if
excessively high or low. However, it is my own personal belief (with
which many will disagree) that when you are in a dominant market
position (as buyer or as seller) you have the instrinsic responsability
to temper the urge to make a killer deal at someone else's expense. If
boats are cheap? Make someone's day by paying the seller's asking price
without trying to chisel them. When boats are overpriced? Try to
advertise yours for what you think it is worth, and not for what
speculative sellers/brokers elsewhere are trying to bleed buyers.

If I seemed biased in my above posts, it is only because I believe that
the boat market is currently overpriced in general. You cannot say that
this is untrue when some boats which have already used up the best
decade in their lifespan are priced in quite used condition
uncomfortably close to their original new price. But does this means
that all sellers/brokers are exagerating prices? By no means. Some boat
models which may be slow movers are seemingly quite low priced even
today, so I would advise educated buyers to look at them carefully and,
if they check out, cut the seller some slack. Don't apply further
downward pressure.

Cheers,

Rich

On 26 Mar 2005 06:33:43 -0800, wrote:

Hi bb,

All my apologies if my posts offended you.

Yeah, I was offended, but apologies accepted. It just rubbed me the
wrong way at the wrong time.

You post many pertinent questions in your reply.

I will say one more thing about the whole issue before moving on.
I've said many times to buyers, sellers and sales people, in this age
of the internet, it's very hard, if not impossible, to find an
uninformed buyer (not that I spend any time trying to find one). In
just a few minutes anyone can find the asking prices of similar
products all over the country. If you have a boat (or any other
similar product) that's overpriced, it's easy for any informed buyer
to figure you're out of line on your asking price.

Happy hunting.

bb

"Our Village Idiot Krause, posted by his 13th identity"
fabricated in message ...
Netsock wrote:
"Dr. T. Sheit" wrote in message
...

Who was she talking about?


Our Klass Klown Krause.




Tell us, netsock, how come your personal webpage and
the multi-identified "Smith" at 24.98.9.150 both resolve to
fe1.columbus.rr.com?

One of two reasons...

#1. You're too dumb to read a net trace, or...

#2. You are lying...yet again.

Are you truly that obsessed with me? [smile]

*ploink* #13

--
-Netsock

"It's just about going fast...that's all..."
http://home.columbus.rr.com/ckg/

"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:36:39 -0500, HKrause
wrote:
Yeah, as I said, 31s and of course the 33s were larger than what I had
in mind, when I had this refurb idea in mind. A couple of four cylinder
diesels would do nicely in the 28.

I've got a nibble, maybe, on my Parker. If the guy's really interested,
I'll have the winter plastic removed. I don't usually call for that
until the beginning of April, just before the last snowstorm here.

===============================================

Normal power on most of the 28s that we saw was a pair of 350cid
Chevys rated at 260 hp, cruising at about 130 hp each. I would want
diesel power of at least 180 to 200 hp for comparable performance. My
recollection is that the 28s actually weigh more than the 31s but the
31s are almost always found with a pair of 454s unless they've been
converted.

Don't get snookered Wayne.

Krause is a liar...its been proven, and its been proven he doesn't even have
a boat.

This is just more of his creative cut-n-paste drivel from the internet.

Ask yourself two questions...

1. What kind of life does Krause have, sitting on his duff, posting to this
Usenet group 10-12 hours a day, under more than 10 different identities?

2. Why does he not allow his posts to be x-archived?

The answers are obvious...


--
-Netsock

"It's just about going fast...that's all..."
http://home.columbus.rr.com/ckg/

Netsock,
Ask him about his Lobster Boat.


"Netsucksux" wrote in message
...
Netsock wrote:
"Wayne.B" wrote in message
...

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 14:36:39 -0500, HKrause
wrote:

Yeah, as I said, 31s and of course the 33s were larger than what I had
in mind, when I had this refurb idea in mind. A couple of four cylinder
diesels would do nicely in the 28.

I've got a nibble, maybe, on my Parker. If the guy's really interested,
I'll have the winter plastic removed. I don't usually call for that
until the beginning of April, just before the last snowstorm here.

============================================= ==

Normal power on most of the 28s that we saw was a pair of 350cid
Chevys rated at 260 hp, cruising at about 130 hp each. I would want
diesel power of at least 180 to 200 hp for comparable performance. My
recollection is that the 28s actually weigh more than the 31s but the
31s are almost always found with a pair of 454s unless they've been
converted.


Don't get snookered Wayne.

Krause is a liar...its been proven, and its been proven he doesn't even
have
a boat.


Tell you what, Netsuck. I'll show you my registration papers for my
parker, and you give me signed over registration papers and your daddy's
jetboat.

What? You won't? No balls.


1. What kind of life does Krause have, sitting on his duff, posting to
this
Usenet group 10-12 hours a day, under more than 10 different identities?

I'm always Krause. And since you are one of the Harry ID thieves, you try
to be, too.


2. Why does he not allow his posts to be x-archived?

The answers are obvious...


Because it annoys lowlifes like you, of course.

"Our Village Idiot, Krause" spewed in yet another identity
...



Tell you what, Netsuck. I'll show you my registration papers for my
parker, and you give me signed over registration papers and your daddy's
jetboat.



Sorry my pointed headed friend, but since my "daddy" doesn't even own a
boat, that cant be done. Besides, I have better things to do than entertain
a forged document.



Tell you what tho...why not share with the group why you insist my Father
does own a boat. If you show that you are not lying, I will give you choice
over any one of my 3 boats.


What? You won't? No balls.

The only ball we are talking about now, my challenged friend, is in your
court.



I'm always Krause.



And I'm always Netsock. Aside from my real name (which I used to post under,
but gave up because of email/name harvesting) it is the ONLY name I have
ever posted under here.



And since you are one of the Harry ID thieves, you
try to be, too.



Pu-lease. If you are insinuating that I have ever posed as you, you are
highly misguided. I have better things to do than to imitate a pathetic man
typing away on a Usenet group for 70 plus hours a week, let alone passing
myself off as a boatless double-digit IQed liar.



I could ask you for proof, but given your history of lies, your (lack of)
credibility precedes you.


2. Why does he not allow his posts to be x-archived?

The answers are obvious...


Because it annoys lowlifes like you, of course.



LOL! You hardly annoy me you fool. In fact, I used to find you quite
humorous, squirming and twisting when caught in your own lies. The fact is,
you did it because you couldn't keep your lies straight. There is no other
reason anybody would do it.



Nonetheless, I am a fair man. Please post proof that my Father owns a boat,
or I have ever posted under you name, and the boat is yours.



We are all waiting...




--
-Netsock



"It's just about going fast...that's all..."
http://home.columbus.rr.com/ckg/

"N S Sherlock" no****sherlock.com wrote in message
...
Netsock,
Ask him about his Lobster Boat.


Ahh, the Lobsta' boat. I do remember that one. That's the one he plagiarized
the picture of, and another he lied about ownership as well. He know says he
owns a Parker! LOL!

But I think Ill pass on asking him about it. One of my pet-peeves are liars.
I think liars are the lowest forms of human sociology, and Krause...well, he
about the biggest liar I have ever seen.

Now I understand this is Usenet, and that why I don't let him bother me
much. I'm just as happy marching on with him in my kill file, but that
infuriates him so much, he feels the "need" for me to hear him. So much so,
he has now turned to stalking me, and fabricating complete lunacies.

What's funny, or even pathetic, is that he is too dense to see what an idiot
he is really acting like.

Oh well, that's what made the Harry/Gould/Skipper (plus 9 other identities)
show, so funny.

Take care, and happy (real) boating.

--
-Netsock

"It's just about going fast...that's all..."
http://home.columbus.rr.com/ckg/

"Netsock" wrote in message
...
"Our Village Idiot, Krause" spewed in yet another
identity
...

Tell you what, Netsuck. I'll show you my registration papers for my
parker, and you give me signed over registration papers and your daddy's
jetboat.

Sorry my pointed headed friend, but since my "daddy" doesn't even own a
boat, that cant be done. Besides, I have better things to do than
entertain
a forged document.

Tell you what tho...why not share with the group why you insist my Father
does own a boat. If you show that you are not lying, I will give you
choice
over any one of my 3 boats.

What? You won't? No balls.

The only ball we are talking about now, my challenged friend, is in your
court.

I'm always Krause.

And I'm always Netsock. Aside from my real name (which I used to post
under,
but gave up because of email/name harvesting) it is the ONLY name I have
ever posted under here.

And since you are one of the Harry ID thieves, you
try to be, too.

Pu-lease. If you are insinuating that I have ever posed as you, you are
highly misguided. I have better things to do than to imitate a pathetic
man
typing away on a Usenet group for 70 plus hours a week, let alone passing
myself off as a boatless double-digit IQed liar.

I could ask you for proof, but given your history of lies, your (lack of)
credibility precedes you.

2. Why does he not allow his posts to be x-archived?

The answers are obvious...

Because it annoys lowlifes like you, of course.

LOL! You hardly annoy me you fool. In fact, I used to find you quite
humorous, squirming and twisting when caught in your own lies. The fact
is,
you did it because you couldn't keep your lies straight. There is no other
reason anybody would do it.

Nonetheless, I am a fair man. Please post proof that my Father owns a
boat,
or I have ever posted under you name, and the boat is yours.

We are all waiting...

--
-Netsock

"It's just about going fast...that's all..."
http://home.columbus.rr.com/ckg/

Hey Krause, we are still waiting for your response.

Should I consider your silence, that you concede to being a liar? [huge
grin]

We are all (still) waiting...

--
-Netsock

"It's just about going fast...that's all..."
http://home.columbus.rr.com/ckg/

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 07:44:15 -0500, "Netsock" wrote:

Hey Krause, we are still waiting for your response.

Should I consider your silence, that you concede to being a liar? [huge
grin]

We are all (still) waiting...

Could you children get over yourselves?

bb