NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
-


My comment stands. Your Little Business group is full of glowing
references to Saint Dubya the Dumb. Naturally, it would have an
opposite
opinion of the Democratic front-runner.

No, not naturally. You're making stupid-ass assumptions again...without
checking the facts. NFIB asks its 600,000 members to vote on what
issues
are most important to small businesses. It then takes the results of
those
surveys and lobbies Congress to pass legislation that would help small
business. Each member of Congress then votes on the issues...and NFIB
keeps
track of who votes for what.

There are plenty of Democrats with positive (50% or better)
ratings...meaning they agree with NFIB.

Dianne Feinstein scored a 50%
Zell Miller score a 75%
John Breaux scored a 63%
Mary Landrieu scored a 75%
Max Baucus scored a 75%
Ben Nelson scored a 63%
Tim Johnson scored a 50%
James Jeffords (I) scored a 63% (scored an 83% in the 106th Congress
before
he left the Republican party)

NFIB's "glowing references" are only given when a government official
acts/votes in a way that supports small business...and that simply
doesn't
describe the vast majority of democrats.


It doesn't mean "they" agreed with your group. It means your group
agreed with their positions.

No, actually you're wrong. Lobbying groups have a pretty strong effect on
what gets passed in Congress. Fortune rated NFIB the nation's most powerful
business lobbying group...and the third most powerful lobbying group
overall...second only to the NRA, and AARP, respectively.

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/power25

The Top 15:
1) NRA
2) AARP
3) NFIB
4) American Israel Public Affairs Committee
5) Assoc. of Trial Lawyers of America
6) AFL-CIO
7) Chamber of Commerce of the USA
8) National Beer Wholesalers Association
9) Nat'l Assn. of Realtors
10)National Assn. of Manufacturers
11)National Assn. of Home Builders of the US
12)American Medical Association
13)American Hospital Association (formerly ranked 31st)
14)NEA
15)American Farm Bureau Federation


I've seen Fortune's lists, and I've seen others. I've never even
encountered anyone else who has mentioned your group of Small
Businessmen, probably because your interests and mine don't cover much
of the same ground, legislatively. The NRA, for example, doesn't factor
into much of what interests me on the Hill. The Pharmaceutical Research
and Manufacturers Association does. The AARP certainly whored itself
recently for the drug manufacturers.

Ahh...the beer wholesalers. Now thete's a group worth knowing.
--
Email sent to is never read.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:



NFIB and small business make the difference in Washington, D.C.


NFIB comes out fighting every time lawmakers and regulators try
to
take another bite out of your business or your pocketbook. NFIB
members
from
all over the country make their voices heard, and Congress listens --
and
those victories translate into money in your pocket.


Hehehe. They sho' got their hooks into you.



Obstacles Cleared for Overtime Reform

You mean elimination.


Small Business Scores Health-Care Option With HSAs

President Bush signed legislation in December 2003, authorizing
the
creation of Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). Taking effect Jan. 1,
2004,
HSAs
are tax-free savings accounts for medical expenses that will allow
more
small-business owners to obtain affordable health coverage for
themselves
and their employees.

This is one of the biggest and saddest laughs of all. An HSA is no
substitute for a strong health insurance plan. Can you tell us why?




Any taxpayer with a high-deductible insurance plan can
contribute
up
to $2,600 a year ($5,150 for families) into an HSA account.

Well, that ought to cover two days at the hospital...or removal of a
hangnail.

Doh! The "high-deductible insurance plan" pays the big bills. The $2600
pays the routine trips to the doc. I pay almost $11,000 for a family of
four (with an 80/20 plan and $500 deductible). I bet my premium would
drop
by 75% if I had a very high deductible plan. If nobody gets sick in a
given
year, then I would save mega-bucks...which is money that would be lining
the
pockets of some insurance executive if it weren't for HSA's. If we *do*
get
sick, then it's virtually a wash.

The other issue NFIB is strongly lobbying for are AHP's. Until an
Association Health Plan bill is passed, we small business guys don't get
the
same special privileges as is afforded government workers and union
members.
You guys lobbied for AHP's and got 'em (in principle, if not in
name)...and
now it's our turn.




Indeed, AHP's are promising. A really serious problem these days is that
the cost of pharmaceuticals for covered employees now costs health plans
about the same as hopsitalization. This is leading to caps and higher
co-pays for some.

I figure that once AHP legislation passes, it'll force to the table two of
the larger profit-makers in the pharmaceutical industry...namely,
manufacturers and pharmacies. I would hope to see the individual
associations (with memberships sometimes exceeding several hundred thousand
people) negotiating directly with the manufacturers and the pharmacies.

Of course, the biggest opponent of AHP's is the insurance industry. AHP's
give associations bargaining power against the insurance companies...and
could give associations enough clout to completely bypass the insurance
companies.

Wanna know who the key opponents are?

Blue Cross/Blue Shield
State insurance commissioners
AFL-CIO and other unions
Mental Health Groups
Health insurance agent associations
Senator Edward Kennedy
Senator Richard Durbin
(source:
http://www.cropusainsurance.com/legi..._opponents.asp)


In light of your strong allegiances to the aforementioned groups and
individuals, I'm surprised that you've broken ranks
and described AHP's as "promising". I guess there's some hope for you yet.
;-)

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...



Indeed, AHP's are promising.

PROS & CONS - SUPPORTERS AND OPPONENTS
Association Health Plan Legislation

Pro

a.. Supporters of the plan include small businesses, Farm Bureau, chambers
of commerce, and associations of self-employeds such as engineers,
construction firms, farm associations and those who have not been allowed to
purchase health insurance through associations
Con

a.. Opponents of the plan are Blue Cross/Blue Shield, who fear that they
would lose business to AHPs and fear that they would lose the ability to set
rates for individuals and small businesses based upon company-wide expense
b.. Senator Kennedy and other liberal Senators oppose the legislation
because it would lessen the need for national health care
c.. State insurance departments oppose the plan as they fear losing their
regulatory authority and insurance premium taxes
d.. AFL/CIO, American Federal of State & County Municipal Employees,
American Federation of Teachers and other unions oppose the plan because
they support universal health care
e.. Health insurance agents fear loss of commissions

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
-


My comment stands. Your Little Business group is full of glowing
references to Saint Dubya the Dumb. Naturally, it would have an
opposite
opinion of the Democratic front-runner.

No, not naturally. You're making stupid-ass assumptions
again...without
checking the facts. NFIB asks its 600,000 members to vote on what
issues
are most important to small businesses. It then takes the results of
those
surveys and lobbies Congress to pass legislation that would help
small
business. Each member of Congress then votes on the issues...and
NFIB
keeps
track of who votes for what.

There are plenty of Democrats with positive (50% or better)
ratings...meaning they agree with NFIB.

Dianne Feinstein scored a 50%
Zell Miller score a 75%
John Breaux scored a 63%
Mary Landrieu scored a 75%
Max Baucus scored a 75%
Ben Nelson scored a 63%
Tim Johnson scored a 50%
James Jeffords (I) scored a 63% (scored an 83% in the 106th Congress
before
he left the Republican party)

NFIB's "glowing references" are only given when a government official
acts/votes in a way that supports small business...and that simply
doesn't
describe the vast majority of democrats.


It doesn't mean "they" agreed with your group. It means your group
agreed with their positions.

No, actually you're wrong. Lobbying groups have a pretty strong effect
on
what gets passed in Congress. Fortune rated NFIB the nation's most
powerful
business lobbying group...and the third most powerful lobbying group
overall...second only to the NRA, and AARP, respectively.

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/power25

The Top 15:
1) NRA
2) AARP
3) NFIB
4) American Israel Public Affairs Committee
5) Assoc. of Trial Lawyers of America
6) AFL-CIO
7) Chamber of Commerce of the USA
8) National Beer Wholesalers Association
9) Nat'l Assn. of Realtors
10)National Assn. of Manufacturers
11)National Assn. of Home Builders of the US
12)American Medical Association
13)American Hospital Association (formerly ranked 31st)
14)NEA
15)American Farm Bureau Federation


I've seen Fortune's lists, and I've seen others. I've never even
encountered anyone else who has mentioned your group of Small
Businessmen, probably because your interests and mine don't cover much
of the same ground, legislatively.

Sure they do. You own a business with employees, right? Then the NFIB has
lobbied for a lot of the favorable legislation you've received.

The NRA, for example, doesn't factor
into much of what interests me on the Hill.

Me neither...but I know they're a pretty powerful group.

The Pharmaceutical Research
and Manufacturers Association does.

Of course.

The AARP certainly whored itself
recently for the drug manufacturers.

I don't agree here. Half a loaf is better than no loaf. Now that the
government is paying the bill, there'll be additional legislation to attempt
to fix what's broken. The current prescription drug bill is just a start.


Ahh...the beer wholesalers. Now thete's a group worth knowing.

Pretty large part of our economy, unfortunately.

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"Don White" wrote in message
...
What this usually means is that the small business wants gov't handouts
or
a
reduced tax rate.
Pay your fair share...the unionized working class sure are.

Why must you always be such a dim bulb? The "unionized working class"
would
not have jobs if not for small businesses. Here's some stats for you:


Actually, you have it backwards. If it weren't for workers, there
wouldn't be any small businesses, or large businesses, for that matter.

I knew you'd make this point...and I really can't argue against it, except
for the exceptions you made below. However, I'd add one caveat to your
statement: businesses *can* operate without *unionized* working class.

You can have a society in which every man or woman is his or her own
producer (a farmer, a sawyer, a cobbler, et cetera, who trades with
others for sustenance, and without anything but the smallest family
businesses, but you cannot have most small or any medium or large
businesses without workers.

Agreed.

We had such a business-less society when
this country was first settled.

So it can work...but we'd be living in the dark ages.


Capital is subservient to labor.

And vice-versa.

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message

......Besides your beer, I'm especially fond of all the
cashiers who can make change without looking at the digits on the
register.

Now that would be a nice touch..... :-)

NOYB wrote:
"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...
NOYB wrote:



NFIB and small business make the difference in Washington, D.C.


NFIB comes out fighting every time lawmakers and regulators try
to
take another bite out of your business or your pocketbook. NFIB
members
from
all over the country make their voices heard, and Congress listens --
and
those victories translate into money in your pocket.


Hehehe. They sho' got their hooks into you.



Obstacles Cleared for Overtime Reform

You mean elimination.


Small Business Scores Health-Care Option With HSAs

President Bush signed legislation in December 2003, authorizing
the
creation of Health Savings Accounts (HSAs). Taking effect Jan. 1,
2004,
HSAs
are tax-free savings accounts for medical expenses that will allow
more
small-business owners to obtain affordable health coverage for
themselves
and their employees.

This is one of the biggest and saddest laughs of all. An HSA is no
substitute for a strong health insurance plan. Can you tell us why?




Any taxpayer with a high-deductible insurance plan can
contribute
up
to $2,600 a year ($5,150 for families) into an HSA account.

Well, that ought to cover two days at the hospital...or removal of a
hangnail.

Doh! The "high-deductible insurance plan" pays the big bills. The $2600
pays the routine trips to the doc. I pay almost $11,000 for a family of
four (with an 80/20 plan and $500 deductible). I bet my premium would
drop
by 75% if I had a very high deductible plan. If nobody gets sick in a
given
year, then I would save mega-bucks...which is money that would be lining
the
pockets of some insurance executive if it weren't for HSA's. If we *do*
get
sick, then it's virtually a wash.

The other issue NFIB is strongly lobbying for are AHP's. Until an
Association Health Plan bill is passed, we small business guys don't get
the
same special privileges as is afforded government workers and union
members.
You guys lobbied for AHP's and got 'em (in principle, if not in
name)...and
now it's our turn.




Indeed, AHP's are promising. A really serious problem these days is that
the cost of pharmaceuticals for covered employees now costs health plans
about the same as hopsitalization. This is leading to caps and higher
co-pays for some.

I figure that once AHP legislation passes, it'll force to the table two of
the larger profit-makers in the pharmaceutical industry...namely,
manufacturers and pharmacies. I would hope to see the individual
associations (with memberships sometimes exceeding several hundred thousand
people) negotiating directly with the manufacturers and the pharmacies.

Of course, the biggest opponent of AHP's is the insurance industry. AHP's
give associations bargaining power against the insurance companies...and
could give associations enough clout to completely bypass the insurance
companies.

Wanna know who the key opponents are?

Blue Cross/Blue Shield
State insurance commissioners
AFL-CIO and other unions
Mental Health Groups
Health insurance agent associations
Senator Edward Kennedy
Senator Richard Durbin
(source:
http://www.cropusainsurance.com/legi..._opponents.asp)


In light of your strong allegiances to the aforementioned groups and
individuals, I'm surprised that you've broken ranks
and described AHP's as "promising". I guess there's some hope for you yet.
;-)


More bull****. I'm directly involved with several of the largest unions
affiliated with the AFL, and the AFL itself, all deeply involved in
health care associations set up for the very purpose you are discussing
here.

You need to expand your lists of sources, fella.
--
Email sent to is never read.

NOYB wrote:

"Harry Krause" wrote in message
...



Indeed, AHP's are promising.

PROS & CONS - SUPPORTERS AND OPPONENTS
Association Health Plan Legislation

Pro

a.. Supporters of the plan include small businesses, Farm Bureau, chambers
of commerce, and associations of self-employeds such as engineers,
construction firms, farm associations and those who have not been allowed to
purchase health insurance through associations
Con

a.. Opponents of the plan are Blue Cross/Blue Shield, who fear that they
would lose business to AHPs and fear that they would lose the ability to set
rates for individuals and small businesses based upon company-wide expense
b.. Senator Kennedy and other liberal Senators oppose the legislation
because it would lessen the need for national health care
c.. State insurance departments oppose the plan as they fear losing their
regulatory authority and insurance premium taxes
d.. AFL/CIO, American Federal of State & County Municipal Employees,
American Federation of Teachers and other unions oppose the plan because
they support universal health care
e.. Health insurance agents fear loss of commissions



Your source's interpretation is wrong. Certainly the labor movement
supports universal care, and huge elements of movement who support that
also support health care associations, and participate in them.

--
Email sent to is never read.

"NOYB" wrote in message news:DIvUb.12070
Huh? I thought he was a Vietnam vet. In fact, he was a lieutenant, right?
Which means that he ordered men into combat...and some of those men did not
make it back. That makes him no different from the
Commander-in-Chief...except that he had control over fewer men.

Are you really saying that, as a lieutenant, Kerry had the power to
order a premptive war on another country? I did not know!
Kerry was doing his duty in Vietnam, following orders. Nothing more,
nothing less.

"John Gaquin" wrote in message
...

"Doug Kanter" wrote in message

......Besides your beer, I'm especially fond of all the
cashiers who can make change without looking at the digits on the
register.

Now that would be a nice touch..... :-)



Here's a nice touch. My car broke down while visiting Ottawa. The hotel
manager found out about the mess and gave me a $25.00 tab for the bar. I
needed it by the time it was over. Not THAT'S service.