Why jump into a "big" boat, if your a newbie, it is much larger investment,
much larger costs etc etc. What if you decide you do not like boating after
a year? At this point it is an experiment, you are only assuming you are
going to enjoy going out on the water with family and friends. Should you
jump into the biggest boat, you are risking more. Especially should your
boating waters be dangerous, it only adds more risks. It is like learning
anything, you start at grade 1 and move up, you do not simply jump into
college. Normal progression is the safest one. Marinas and boat dealers love
it either way, if you just jump into big boat, then they capitalize on
damage, fixing this, etc etc, if you decide to learn on something smaller
that you can handle, then they may get sales. Assuming you always buy from
the dealer. Remember, when your offshore, the wind and waves pick up, and
you turn that key to start that motor, what if it doesn't start? And the
wind is picking up, and the waves, and you do not know where to
troubleshoot. Maybe he should simply charter out.












"Garth Almgren" wrote in message
...
On 5/5/2004 10:07 AM, Harry Krause wrote:

basskisser wrote:

Harry Krause wrote in message
...

I had a wonderful time as a kid with 12-14' Penn Yans and Wolverines
powered by 15/18 hp evinrudes, on the connecticut side of the sound.

Spent the first years of my life close to Penn Yan, NY., where the boats
are made.


Ahh. My father gave me two Penn Yans to use during two successive
summers. I loved the boats. Both had hulls of wood strips covered with
some sort of canvas. The decks, seats and interiors were varnished wood.
Round chines, soft ride, really pretty, classic-looking little boats. He
was a Penn Yan dealer for many years, but dropped the boats in the late
1950s. Kept selling the canoes, though.

My family has a 8' 1942 Penn Yan on the stern of our Chris. Wonderful
rowing dingy.

Unfortunately, the guy in the slip across from ours stalled while
reversing, forgot to put her in neutral before restarting, lost control
(guess what brand of boat...), and smacked directly into our Penn Yan.
The dingy took the brunt of the hit (cracked the keel and broke a bunch
of ribs) and saved the Chris' transom.

Check out the "crunched" series at
http://home.comcast.net/~galmgren/chris-craft/

We're hoping that we can find someone to salvage it, since it's doubtful
we could find a replacement for a decent price.

--
~/Garth - 1966 Glastron V-142 Skiflite: "Blue-Boat"
"There is nothing - absolutely nothing - half so much worth doing
as simply messing about in boats."
-Kenneth Grahame, The Wind in the Willows

"Bob D." wrote in message
...


Running a 16-foot boat for a year or so does a wonderful job of training
you....to run a 16-foot boat.


This is as you would say, "Horsefeathers". IMHO, running a 16 foot boat
allows to apply boating theory, and gain boating experience at a faster
rate, with reduced risk, and reduced ancillary costs than with say
stepping into a 28 foot cruiser.

If you discover within a month that your 16 foot boat is completely
inappropriate for 80% of the wave conditions outside of your harbor, you'll
find yourself using the boat quite a bit less. Then, its value as a learning
tool diminishes rapidly. Perhaps the OP should be wandering around marinas
and talking to owners of smaller boats, to find out if and how they feel
limited by their particular boats.

" Tuuk" wrote in message
...

Why jump into a "big" boat, if your a newbie, it is much larger
investment,
much larger costs etc etc. What if you decide you do not like boating
after
a year?

I own a 14' boat, which happens to be perfect for my needs. It's extremely
seaworthy for its size. But, a 14-16' boat is in NO way an accurate
indication of what it'll be like to operate, maintain and enjoy a slightly
larger boat, perhaps in the 19-25' range.


At this point it is an experiment, you are only assuming you are
going to enjoy going out on the water with family and friends.

Smaller boats tend to be less than comfortable. And, he won't have room for
MUCH family & friends.


Especially should your
boating waters be dangerous, it only adds more risks.

What??? The only way this is true is if you're saying that you risk less
financial loss if a small boat sinks, compared with a larger one. Other than
that, the statement makes absolutely no sense.

Especially should your
boating waters be dangerous, it only adds more risks.

What??? The only way this is true is if you're saying that you risk less
financial loss if a small boat sinks, compared with a larger one. Other than
that, the statement makes absolutely no sense.


Glad somebody else noticed that, too.

"If the water is dangerous, a small boat is better." NOT!

Hey Tuuk, do you have a boat or are you just hanging out for the politics?

"Gould 0738" wrote in message
...
Especially should your
boating waters be dangerous, it only adds more risks.

What??? The only way this is true is if you're saying that you risk less
financial loss if a small boat sinks, compared with a larger one. Other
than
that, the statement makes absolutely no sense.


Glad somebody else noticed that, too.

"If the water is dangerous, a small boat is better." NOT!

Hey Tuuk, do you have a boat or are you just hanging out for the politics?



I love my boat, in terms of its ability to keep me dry, and get me through
weather that would terrify some boaters. And, if I lift the motor, I can
pole or row my way through 6" of water when necessary. But frankly, it's
pretty damned uncomfortable. With an ice chest, fishing tackle, vests &
battery, it's got plenty of room for 2, or maybe 3, if the passengers are
people who understand where someone's trying to move to next.

I've looked at slightly larger Lunds, as well as Alumacraft and one other
similar brand whose name I forget, and decided that designers cannot work
miracles in boats under 18'.

In article ,
(Gould 0738) wrote:

How is blindly telling a would be boater to get a larger boat,

I wouldn't begin to know.

What I said was:

Get a boat that suits your needs and, at the very beginning, learn to
operate
it properly. That may even involve hiring somebody to teach you, one on
one.

Several of the folks screeching that you *must* start small and work up have
cited "safety" as an issue.


While I don't feel anyone *must* start off in a small boat, I can by no
means consider it "bad advice" for most first time boaters to start off
with a smaller vessel for reasons of safety and practically. And yes
saftey is an issue if your in a boat you can't operate.

Maybe it's different in my state, but boating deaths go up exponentially the
further one gets down below 20 feet LOA.


This a vague correlation, offering no other details like location,
conditions, activity or the captain's experience.

It is my understanding that most boating fatalities take place under calm
conditions, and DO NOT involve recreational boaters, but hunters and
fishermen on small boats that I would not constitute as a recreational
boat. These statistics better illustrate the misuse of and stupidity on a
boat like standing up in a 9 foot john boat, overloading, and not wearing
a PFD. Those fatalities might be skewing the statistics in favor of the
"bigger is better" argument. Factor out the hunters and fisherman and the
calm conditions, and the remaining statistics would hold more relevance.

All things being equal, your point is taken that you will be safer on a
larger boat, AND if a new boater is hell bent on taking seven people out
on the water, then for the love of god they should get a boat larger than
16 feet.

But that is a far cry from being able to recommend to everyone that
getting a larger boat is good idea for a first time boat owner.

I'm personally aware of scores of first-time boaters who had very successful
experiences with boats as large as a 63-foot Hatteras. In every case, the
people got some extensive one-on-one training.


Hiring someone to hold your hand until you can operate your own vessel is
great. But would you argue that every new boater would exercise this
much common sense? In most cases, the best we can hope for is a dealer
taking the new owner out to get familar with the helm, and that is a far
cry from being able to safeley operate the boat under adverse conditions.


We can agree that it is complete idiocy to be out and about on a boat you are
not prepared to handle. We apparently disagree that it is possible for that
*first* boat to something other than a tiny little runabout.

We don't necessarily disagree on your second point, as I've never said one
can not or should not start out with a larger vessel. You have valid
points supporting the decision to opt for the larger vessel. The
exception I took, is in the failing to point out the potential pitfalls
in starting out with a larger, or "too large" a boat for the the would be
boater.

Also Sprach Gould 0738 :

Maybe it's different in my state, but boating deaths go up exponentially the
further one gets down below 20 feet LOA.

Did you conveniently forget to mention that the number of boats on the
water increases exponentially below 20 feet? For instance, combining
King and Snohomish counties, there are 72,000 boats under 20 feet, 15,000
between 21 and 30 feet, and 6003 31 feet and up.

Of course there are going to be more deaths below 20 feet, there are a lot
more of them on the water. I won't deny that the operators are likely to
be less experienced, or that the boats are likely less stable in rough
weather, but they're nowhere near the deathtraps your statistical
manipulation makes them out to be.

In fact, in some ways you are safer on a boat less than 20 feet. A boat
less than 20 feet is required to have flotation... basic flotation for
inboards and stern drives, and level flotation for outboards. Over 20
feet, there is no legal requirement for flotation, and most don't have it,
so will sink like a rock.

Dan

--
Aerodrome (n) - British word for airport. About what you would expect from
a country that gives its airplanes names like Gypsy Moth and Fairey Battle
Bomber.

While I don't feel anyone *must* start off in a small boat, I can by no
means consider it "bad advice" for most first time boaters to start off
with a smaller vessel for reasons of safety and practically. And yes
saftey is an issue if your in a boat you can't operate.

And we're certainly an argumentive couple of cusses considering that we
essentially agree. Refer again to my statement, please. Perhaps it was
carelessly worded or otherwise unclear:

Get a boat that suits your needs and, at the very beginning, learn to
operate
it properly. That may even involve hiring somebody to teach you, one on
one.


All other things being equal, a boater will be statistically and demonstrably
safer in a larger boat that he knows how to operate than in a smaller boat that
he knows how to operate equally well. Both are learned experiences. Does
everybody who learns to drive need to start out in a Mini Cooper, or could the
average person probably handle a 3/4 ton pickup as a first
vehicle with proper instruction? Similar concept.

Would you move your wife and five kids into a two bedroom home because it was
your first house? Why would anybody start off with a vessel that clearly is
undersized for its intended use or desired level of comfort simply because it
is a first boat?



Not everybody needs a big boat. But those who attempt to sleep a family of four
during a weekend or two on a 19-foot cuddy cabin will be lucky to sustain
interest in the hobby long enough to take that expensive depreciation hit and
"step up".

It is my understanding that most boating fatalities take place under calm
conditions, and DO NOT involve recreational boaters, but hunters and
fishermen on small boats that I would not constitute as a recreational
boat.

Yes, but. When you look at the statistics for recreational boaters who are not
hunting.....(and it gets pretty weird to exclude fishing, but OK)......there
are still a disproportionate number of people who die in the smaller craft.
When did you last hear of a 30-foot cruiser capsizing, or swamping in
3-footers?



Hiring someone to hold your hand until you can operate your own vessel is
great. But would you argue that every new boater would exercise this
much common sense? In most cases, the best we can hope for is a dealer
taking the new owner out to get familar with the helm, and that is a far
cry from being able to safeley operate the boat under adverse conditions.


We do have to rely on people showing som common sense. The fact that the OP is
asking questions about size indicates a thoughtful process at work.

Frankly, I don't want some guy bearing down on me at 25 knots in a 16-footer if
it's Day One of his boating experience and he's had no more instruction than
the boat dealer saying, "Here's the keys, Skipper. Good luck!"


We can agree that it is complete idiocy to be out and about on a boat you
are
not prepared to handle. We apparently disagree that it is possible for that
*first* boat to something other than a tiny little runabout.



We don't necessarily disagree on your second point, as I've never said one
can not or should not start out with a larger vessel. You have valid
points supporting the decision to opt for the larger vessel. The
exception I took, is in the failing to point out the potential pitfalls
in starting out with a larger, or "too large" a boat for the the would be
boater.

Perhaps my perspective is influenced by my geographic location. The first
powerboat I learned to operate on more than a casual basis was a 34-foot,
single screw trawler. That's not so unusual out here. With that as a
background, I always marvel at the number of people who are conviced they could
never learn to operate a single engine boat or who are convinced that there is
a narrow range of properly sized boats for a beginner.

Anything bigger than an 8-foot rowing pram is unsuitable for a novice who will
not obtrain instruction. :-)

Did you conveniently forget to mention that the number of boats on the
water increases exponentially below 20 feet?

No, the statistics are typically expressed in deaths per thousand. That
neutralizes the numerical difference.

Good aspect to consider, though.

I won't deny that the operators are likely to
be less experienced, or that the boats are likely less stable in rough
weather, but they're nowhere near the deathtraps your statistical
manipulation makes them out to be.

Deathtraps? Never did I say deathtraps.
All other things be equal, a boater will be safer in a larger and heavier boat
that he knows how to run well than in a smaller and lighter boat than he knows
how to run well.

When it comes to safety, there's no replacement for displacement.


In fact, in some ways you are safer on a boat less than 20 feet. A boat
less than 20 feet is required to have flotation... basic flotation for
inboards and stern drives, and level flotation for outboards. Over 20
feet, there is no legal requirement for flotation, and most don't have it,
so will sink like a rock.

If flotation made that much difference, the statistics per thousand would
actually favor the little boats. The statistics do not.

Given a choice between a 4000 lb bowrider with 15 inches of freeboard and full
flotation and a 10,000 lb boat with a proper foredeck, 30 or more inches of
freeboard, lacking full floation I'd opt for the latter.
I'm more interested in avoiding a situation where the flotation becomes the
critical difference between life and death, but that's just me. Lots of room on
the water for more than one opinion.

"Bob D." wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Gould 0738) wrote:

Maybe it's different in my state, but boating deaths go up exponentially
the
further one gets down below 20 feet LOA.


This a vague correlation, offering no other details like location,
conditions, activity or the captain's experience.

It is my understanding that most boating fatalities take place under calm
conditions, and DO NOT involve recreational boaters, but hunters and
fishermen on small boats that I would not constitute as a recreational
boat. These statistics better illustrate the misuse of and stupidity on a
boat like standing up in a 9 foot john boat, overloading, and not wearing
a PFD. Those fatalities might be skewing the statistics in favor of the
"bigger is better" argument. Factor out the hunters and fisherman and the
calm conditions, and the remaining statistics would hold more relevance.

Hunters & inland fishermen have a relatively high fatality rate when
involved in the "out of boat" type of accident. It is generally thought to
be because they don't generally consider themselves boaters, and thus often
do not take even the simplest safety precautions, such as having & wearing a
PFD, etc. However, these same hunters and fishermen do not constitute a
large percentage of boaters as a whole, and do not, I believe, skew the
stats.

Full stats are available free at
http://www.uscgboating.org/statistic...stics_2002.pdf



Year 2002 (latest available)

LENGTH DROWNINGS OTHER DEATHS* TOTAL
Less than 16 254 77
331

16 to 26 179 111
290

26 feet to 40 feet 19 18
37

40 feet to 65 feet 3 3
6

More than 65 feet 1 3
4

Unknown 68 14
82

Total 524 226
750