Hi,
I've been recently offered a used coupler as I suspected mine to be shot. I
lifted my 4.3 Merc and removed the old one. Both "new"-used one as well as
the old one looked exactly the same. I inspected the rubber, splines were no
different and looked exactly identical to the smallest detail. Since the
suspected damage was due to the engine misalignment (lots of rattling and
clunking in the back of the engine (sounded like a piston rod broke loose
and was hitting cylinder walls) and I ran the engine dry for about 3x 10-15
sec. (last occurrence with some (not much) blue smoke from behind the
engine, immediately shut down) I wondered how severe the damage could be
with respect to the coupler condition.. Visually there is no way to tell the
difference between the two. Is there any other way to determine how was my
coupler affected, could it be still OK?. What would constitute a definitive
damage to the coupler? Simplest would probably be to drop the boat on the
water but this is out of the question at the moment (engine is still
disconnected). Any suggestions?

"Proxy" wrote in message
...
Hi,
I've been recently offered a used coupler as I suspected mine to be shot.
I
lifted my 4.3 Merc and removed the old one. Both "new"-used one as well as
the old one looked exactly the same. I inspected the rubber, splines were
no
different and looked exactly identical to the smallest detail.

Since the suspected damage was due to the engine misalignment

So how did the engine get misaligned? or is this "suspected"
misalignment ? As I see it, the only way misalignment could
happen is the bushing in front tripod mount got beat out, or
someone messed with the adjustment, or something in the
transom mount, or the transom (or the entire structure) got
shifted, or racked ot something.


(lots of rattling and
clunking in the back of the engine (sounded like a piston rod broke loose
and was hitting cylinder walls)

Sounds more like U-joints, or outdrive related. Did you check that ?
Also, check it with the cups on (in neutral) - should be able to walk
about the back and check it more closely. Since the U joints run at
the same speed at the engine (and connecting rods), that could be
your noise. (are you sure its *not* a connecting rod) ?

Is this an Alpha One drive? (or an older OMC etc ?)


and I ran the engine dry for about 3x 10-15 sec.

How ? 15 seconds, and *three* times?? I'd revisit
your boat operating procedures, because thats hard
to do, and quite frankly, on and a stern drive, thats
borderline operator abuse. (15 Sec is a LONG time).



(last occurrence with some (not much) blue smoke from behind the
engine, immediately shut down)

Blue smoke? god gawd!. What did the smoke smell like?
Oil, or other? (rubber, etc)

I wondered how severe the damage could be
with respect to the coupler condition..

So why do you suspect the coupler? Moreover,
why do you suspect misalignment? What is the
history of this rig ?

Visually there is no way to tell the
difference between the two. Is there any other way to determine how was my
coupler affected, could it be still OK?.

Again, I think you need to tell us more about the history
of this situation. Why do you suspect misalignment?
You should have pulled the outdrive and checked
alignment with an alignment tool before pulling the motor.
Was there ample greese in the splines?

What would constitute a definitive
damage to the coupler? Simplest would probably be to drop the boat on the
water but this is out of the question at the moment (engine is still
disconnected). Any suggestions?

Your questions seem strange - why would you go
and pull the motor like this without checking into some
of the basics (like engine alignment) ??

It is simpler then you could imagine. Outdrive was out (Alpha One). Went to
the mechanic, he used the alignment tool greased all and still could not get
the drive inside (went in until last half inch and then stop, huge pain.
Checked alignment several time is my presence , suspected misaligned engine
but the tool was showing +/-OK. He said yoke is not right (wrong) although
that was running OK as to the previous owner (bought with the outdrive out).
Gave my money back after a fight, he has torn 4 outdrive gaskets and was in
killing mode (he spent 4 hrs). I went to my friend , he runs marine
services, he checked alignment, said "tight" but unlike the other guy
managed to install the drive in 20 min. Interestingly when the drive was
almost fully in (5-10 mm to go) the was a loud clunk, like the engine -
drive combo got in place but that was "unusual" according to him yet he
still proceeded, tightened the screws. Job done.
Subsequently I did some engine work, wanted to test it and ran the engine
dry for 10 sec. - clunk, stopped, all seemed OK, checked the engine, no
issues, tried again 10 sec. same, stopped tried again more like 20 sec. the
clunk was loud like a wrench inside a metal pipe rattling and hitting sided
while rotating. Last try I ran the engine at fast idle (all was done on a
trailer, no water.). Then I saw a small blue cloud and felt.rubber smell. I
thought coupler, plus u-joint rattle due to misalignment (previous owner
could have manipulated it (not me). My thinking was: replace the coupler,
align the stuff install the drive and check then for further signs.
2 mechanics fu..ed up even though I told them both to align the engine if
suspected. bad. Both said "we can handle it". Now I HAVE TO FIX THE MESS: I
think that has prolly contributed to this was the outdrive in up position
(but prop was not moving) so not in gear. Rear engine mounts look OK. I know
I need to check all but coupler is tough as the only to conclusively test it
would
be on the water (for slippage). That would req. installing all back in,
launching, and then going back home to start dismantling again, kind of
stupid, don't u think?

As to running dry, no big deal, I have fixed more then a few seized engines
(running fine) so I know where the limits are. Water or no water, block temp
is to low to cause and damage except for impeller that I have written off
anyway for this experiment. Within 1 min. the engine won't reach any temp
that may be considered even close to dangerous. Same applies to cars. All u
need is lubrication and oil in the crankcase. Done it several times and
never seen any issue whatsoever even after a long time after that (2 years).
To me it seems logical and according to laws of physics. U need water to
cool hot/warm engine not the cold one. Just few remarks, nothing personal.
After all this is a hobby for me, I'm not a pro, just happen to know few
things (except as described, to say the least).
Thanks.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mr Wizzard"
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 3:25 AM
Subject: Engine coupler



"Proxy" wrote in message
...
Hi,
I've been recently offered a used coupler as I suspected mine to be shot.
I
lifted my 4.3 Merc and removed the old one. Both "new"-used one as well
as
the old one looked exactly the same. I inspected the rubber, splines were
no
different and looked exactly identical to the smallest detail.

Since the suspected damage was due to the engine misalignment

So how did the engine get misaligned? or is this "suspected"
misalignment ? As I see it, the only way misalignment could
happen is the bushing in front tripod mount got beat out, or
someone messed with the adjustment, or something in the
transom mount, or the transom (or the entire structure) got
shifted, or racked ot something.


(lots of rattling and
clunking in the back of the engine (sounded like a piston rod broke loose
and was hitting cylinder walls)

Sounds more like U-joints, or outdrive related. Did you check that ?
Also, check it with the cups on (in neutral) - should be able to walk
about the back and check it more closely. Since the U joints run at
the same speed at the engine (and connecting rods), that could be
your noise. (are you sure its *not* a connecting rod) ?

Is this an Alpha One drive? (or an older OMC etc ?)


and I ran the engine dry for about 3x 10-15 sec.

How ? 15 seconds, and *three* times?? I'd revisit
your boat operating procedures, because thats hard
to do, and quite frankly, on and a stern drive, thats
borderline operator abuse. (15 Sec is a LONG time).



(last occurrence with some (not much) blue smoke from behind the
engine, immediately shut down)

Blue smoke? god gawd!. What did the smoke smell like?
Oil, or other? (rubber, etc)

I wondered how severe the damage could be
with respect to the coupler condition..

So why do you suspect the coupler? Moreover,
why do you suspect misalignment? What is the
history of this rig ?

Visually there is no way to tell the
difference between the two. Is there any other way to determine how was
my
coupler affected, could it be still OK?.

Again, I think you need to tell us more about the history
of this situation. Why do you suspect misalignment?
You should have pulled the outdrive and checked
alignment with an alignment tool before pulling the motor.
Was there ample greese in the splines?

What would constitute a definitive
damage to the coupler? Simplest would probably be to drop the boat on the
water but this is out of the question at the moment (engine is still
disconnected). Any suggestions?

Your questions seem strange - why would you go
and pull the motor like this without checking into some
of the basics (like engine alignment) ??











"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Proxy" wrote in message
...
Hi,
I've been recently offered a used coupler as I suspected mine to be shot.
I
lifted my 4.3 Merc and removed the old one. Both "new"-used one as well
as
the old one looked exactly the same. I inspected the rubber, splines were
no
different and looked exactly identical to the smallest detail.

Since the suspected damage was due to the engine misalignment

So how did the engine get misaligned? or is this "suspected"
misalignment ? As I see it, the only way misalignment could
happen is the bushing in front tripod mount got beat out, or
someone messed with the adjustment, or something in the
transom mount, or the transom (or the entire structure) got
shifted, or racked ot something.


(lots of rattling and
clunking in the back of the engine (sounded like a piston rod broke loose
and was hitting cylinder walls)

Sounds more like U-joints, or outdrive related. Did you check that ?
Also, check it with the cups on (in neutral) - should be able to walk
about the back and check it more closely. Since the U joints run at
the same speed at the engine (and connecting rods), that could be
your noise. (are you sure its *not* a connecting rod) ?

Is this an Alpha One drive? (or an older OMC etc ?)


and I ran the engine dry for about 3x 10-15 sec.

How ? 15 seconds, and *three* times?? I'd revisit
your boat operating procedures, because thats hard
to do, and quite frankly, on and a stern drive, thats
borderline operator abuse. (15 Sec is a LONG time).



(last occurrence with some (not much) blue smoke from behind the
engine, immediately shut down)

Blue smoke? god gawd!. What did the smoke smell like?
Oil, or other? (rubber, etc)

I wondered how severe the damage could be
with respect to the coupler condition..

So why do you suspect the coupler? Moreover,
why do you suspect misalignment? What is the
history of this rig ?

Visually there is no way to tell the
difference between the two. Is there any other way to determine how was
my
coupler affected, could it be still OK?.

Again, I think you need to tell us more about the history
of this situation. Why do you suspect misalignment?
You should have pulled the outdrive and checked
alignment with an alignment tool before pulling the motor.
Was there ample greese in the splines?

What would constitute a definitive
damage to the coupler? Simplest would probably be to drop the boat on the
water but this is out of the question at the moment (engine is still
disconnected). Any suggestions?

Your questions seem strange - why would you go
and pull the motor like this without checking into some
of the basics (like engine alignment) ??

I agree that running the engine without cooling water for a brief time isn't
fatal to the engine...but it could ruin the plastic/nylon impeller.
"Proxy" wrote in message
...
It is simpler then you could imagine. Outdrive was out (Alpha One). Went
to
the mechanic, he used the alignment tool greased all and still could not
get
the drive inside (went in until last half inch and then stop, huge pain.
Checked alignment several time is my presence , suspected misaligned
engine
but the tool was showing +/-OK. He said yoke is not right (wrong) although
that was running OK as to the previous owner (bought with the outdrive
out).
Gave my money back after a fight, he has torn 4 outdrive gaskets and was
in
killing mode (he spent 4 hrs). I went to my friend , he runs marine
services, he checked alignment, said "tight" but unlike the other guy
managed to install the drive in 20 min. Interestingly when the drive was
almost fully in (5-10 mm to go) the was a loud clunk, like the engine -
drive combo got in place but that was "unusual" according to him yet he
still proceeded, tightened the screws. Job done.
Subsequently I did some engine work, wanted to test it and ran the engine
dry for 10 sec. - clunk, stopped, all seemed OK, checked the engine, no
issues, tried again 10 sec. same, stopped tried again more like 20 sec.
the
clunk was loud like a wrench inside a metal pipe rattling and hitting
sided
while rotating. Last try I ran the engine at fast idle (all was done on a
trailer, no water.). Then I saw a small blue cloud and felt.rubber smell.
I
thought coupler, plus u-joint rattle due to misalignment (previous owner
could have manipulated it (not me). My thinking was: replace the coupler,
align the stuff install the drive and check then for further signs.
2 mechanics fu..ed up even though I told them both to align the engine if
suspected. bad. Both said "we can handle it". Now I HAVE TO FIX THE MESS:
I
think that has prolly contributed to this was the outdrive in up position
(but prop was not moving) so not in gear. Rear engine mounts look OK. I
know
I need to check all but coupler is tough as the only to conclusively test
it would
be on the water (for slippage). That would req. installing all back in,
launching, and then going back home to start dismantling again, kind of
stupid, don't u think?

As to running dry, no big deal, I have fixed more then a few seized
engines
(running fine) so I know where the limits are. Water or no water, block
temp
is to low to cause and damage except for impeller that I have written off
anyway for this experiment. Within 1 min. the engine won't reach any temp
that may be considered even close to dangerous. Same applies to cars. All
u
need is lubrication and oil in the crankcase. Done it several times and
never seen any issue whatsoever even after a long time after that (2
years).
To me it seems logical and according to laws of physics. U need water to
cool hot/warm engine not the cold one. Just few remarks, nothing personal.
After all this is a hobby for me, I'm not a pro, just happen to know few
things (except as described, to say the least).
Thanks.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mr Wizzard"
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 3:25 AM
Subject: Engine coupler



"Proxy" wrote in message
...
Hi,
I've been recently offered a used coupler as I suspected mine to be
shot.
I
lifted my 4.3 Merc and removed the old one. Both "new"-used one as well
as
the old one looked exactly the same. I inspected the rubber, splines
were
no
different and looked exactly identical to the smallest detail.

Since the suspected damage was due to the engine misalignment

So how did the engine get misaligned? or is this "suspected"
misalignment ? As I see it, the only way misalignment could
happen is the bushing in front tripod mount got beat out, or
someone messed with the adjustment, or something in the
transom mount, or the transom (or the entire structure) got
shifted, or racked ot something.


(lots of rattling and
clunking in the back of the engine (sounded like a piston rod broke
loose
and was hitting cylinder walls)

Sounds more like U-joints, or outdrive related. Did you check that ?
Also, check it with the cups on (in neutral) - should be able to walk
about the back and check it more closely. Since the U joints run at
the same speed at the engine (and connecting rods), that could be
your noise. (are you sure its *not* a connecting rod) ?

Is this an Alpha One drive? (or an older OMC etc ?)


and I ran the engine dry for about 3x 10-15 sec.

How ? 15 seconds, and *three* times?? I'd revisit
your boat operating procedures, because thats hard
to do, and quite frankly, on and a stern drive, thats
borderline operator abuse. (15 Sec is a LONG time).



(last occurrence with some (not much) blue smoke from behind the
engine, immediately shut down)

Blue smoke? god gawd!. What did the smoke smell like?
Oil, or other? (rubber, etc)

I wondered how severe the damage could be
with respect to the coupler condition..

So why do you suspect the coupler? Moreover,
why do you suspect misalignment? What is the
history of this rig ?

Visually there is no way to tell the
difference between the two. Is there any other way to determine how was
my
coupler affected, could it be still OK?.

Again, I think you need to tell us more about the history
of this situation. Why do you suspect misalignment?
You should have pulled the outdrive and checked
alignment with an alignment tool before pulling the motor.
Was there ample greese in the splines?

What would constitute a definitive
damage to the coupler? Simplest would probably be to drop the boat on
the
water but this is out of the question at the moment (engine is still
disconnected). Any suggestions?

Your questions seem strange - why would you go
and pull the motor like this without checking into some
of the basics (like engine alignment) ??











"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Proxy" wrote in message
...
Hi,
I've been recently offered a used coupler as I suspected mine to be
shot.
I
lifted my 4.3 Merc and removed the old one. Both "new"-used one as well
as
the old one looked exactly the same. I inspected the rubber, splines
were
no
different and looked exactly identical to the smallest detail.

Since the suspected damage was due to the engine misalignment

So how did the engine get misaligned? or is this "suspected"
misalignment ? As I see it, the only way misalignment could
happen is the bushing in front tripod mount got beat out, or
someone messed with the adjustment, or something in the
transom mount, or the transom (or the entire structure) got
shifted, or racked ot something.


(lots of rattling and
clunking in the back of the engine (sounded like a piston rod broke
loose
and was hitting cylinder walls)

Sounds more like U-joints, or outdrive related. Did you check that ?
Also, check it with the cups on (in neutral) - should be able to walk
about the back and check it more closely. Since the U joints run at
the same speed at the engine (and connecting rods), that could be
your noise. (are you sure its *not* a connecting rod) ?

Is this an Alpha One drive? (or an older OMC etc ?)


and I ran the engine dry for about 3x 10-15 sec.

How ? 15 seconds, and *three* times?? I'd revisit
your boat operating procedures, because thats hard
to do, and quite frankly, on and a stern drive, thats
borderline operator abuse. (15 Sec is a LONG time).



(last occurrence with some (not much) blue smoke from behind the
engine, immediately shut down)

Blue smoke? god gawd!. What did the smoke smell like?
Oil, or other? (rubber, etc)

I wondered how severe the damage could be
with respect to the coupler condition..

So why do you suspect the coupler? Moreover,
why do you suspect misalignment? What is the
history of this rig ?

Visually there is no way to tell the
difference between the two. Is there any other way to determine how was
my
coupler affected, could it be still OK?.

Again, I think you need to tell us more about the history
of this situation. Why do you suspect misalignment?
You should have pulled the outdrive and checked
alignment with an alignment tool before pulling the motor.
Was there ample greese in the splines?

What would constitute a definitive
damage to the coupler? Simplest would probably be to drop the boat on
the
water but this is out of the question at the moment (engine is still
disconnected). Any suggestions?

Your questions seem strange - why would you go
and pull the motor like this without checking into some
of the basics (like engine alignment) ??

"Proxy" wrote in message
...
It is simpler then you could imagine. Outdrive was out (Alpha One). Went
to
the mechanic, he used the alignment tool greased all and still could not
get
the drive inside (went in until last half inch and then stop, huge pain.
Checked alignment several time is my presence , suspected misaligned
engine
but the tool was showing +/-OK. He said yoke is not right (wrong) although
that was running OK as to the previous owner (bought with the outdrive
out).
Gave my money back after a fight, he has torn 4 outdrive gaskets and was
in
killing mode (he spent 4 hrs). I went to my friend , he runs marine
services, he checked alignment, said "tight" but unlike the other guy
managed to install the drive in 20 min. Interestingly when the drive was
almost fully in (5-10 mm to go) the was a loud clunk, like the engine -
drive combo got in place but that was "unusual" according to him yet he
still proceeded, tightened the screws. Job done.
Subsequently I did some engine work, wanted to test it and ran the engine
dry for 10 sec. - clunk, stopped, all seemed OK, checked the engine, no
issues, tried again 10 sec. same, stopped tried again more like 20 sec.
the
clunk was loud like a wrench inside a metal pipe rattling and hitting
sided
while rotating. Last try I ran the engine at fast idle (all was done on a
trailer, no water.). Then I saw a small blue cloud and felt.rubber smell.
I
thought coupler, plus u-joint rattle due to misalignment (previous owner
could have manipulated it (not me). My thinking was: replace the coupler,
align the stuff install the drive and check then for further signs.
2 mechanics fu..ed up even though I told them both to align the engine if
suspected. bad. Both said "we can handle it". Now I HAVE TO FIX THE MESS:
I
think that has prolly contributed to this was the outdrive in up position
(but prop was not moving) so not in gear. Rear engine mounts look OK. I
know
I need to check all but coupler is tough as the only to conclusively test
it
would
be on the water (for slippage). That would req. installing all back in,
launching, and then going back home to start dismantling again, kind of
stupid, don't u think?

As to running dry, no big deal, I have fixed more then a few seized
engines
(running fine) so I know where the limits are. Water or no water, block
temp
is to low to cause and damage except for impeller that I have written off
anyway for this experiment. Within 1 min. the engine won't reach any temp
that may be considered even close to dangerous. Same applies to cars. All
u
need is lubrication and oil in the crankcase. Done it several times and
never seen any issue whatsoever even after a long time after that (2
years).
To me it seems logical and according to laws of physics. U need water to
cool hot/warm engine not the cold one. Just few remarks, nothing personal.
After all this is a hobby for me, I'm not a pro, just happen to know few
things (except as described, to say the least).
Thanks.

First order of business is that you need to learn about "impellers". Period.
Not to belabor the point here my friend, but its not the tempreture that is
the issue with running without water, but its the clean, dry rubber
impeller
spinning around inside a metal housing that will wipe it out in 60 seconds.








----- Original Message -----
From: "Mr Wizzard"
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 3:25 AM
Subject: Engine coupler



"Proxy" wrote in message
...
Hi,
I've been recently offered a used coupler as I suspected mine to be
shot.
I
lifted my 4.3 Merc and removed the old one. Both "new"-used one as well
as
the old one looked exactly the same. I inspected the rubber, splines
were
no
different and looked exactly identical to the smallest detail.

Since the suspected damage was due to the engine misalignment

So how did the engine get misaligned? or is this "suspected"
misalignment ? As I see it, the only way misalignment could
happen is the bushing in front tripod mount got beat out, or
someone messed with the adjustment, or something in the
transom mount, or the transom (or the entire structure) got
shifted, or racked ot something.


(lots of rattling and
clunking in the back of the engine (sounded like a piston rod broke
loose
and was hitting cylinder walls)

Sounds more like U-joints, or outdrive related. Did you check that ?
Also, check it with the cups on (in neutral) - should be able to walk
about the back and check it more closely. Since the U joints run at
the same speed at the engine (and connecting rods), that could be
your noise. (are you sure its *not* a connecting rod) ?

Is this an Alpha One drive? (or an older OMC etc ?)


and I ran the engine dry for about 3x 10-15 sec.

How ? 15 seconds, and *three* times?? I'd revisit
your boat operating procedures, because thats hard
to do, and quite frankly, on and a stern drive, thats
borderline operator abuse. (15 Sec is a LONG time).



(last occurrence with some (not much) blue smoke from behind the
engine, immediately shut down)

Blue smoke? god gawd!. What did the smoke smell like?
Oil, or other? (rubber, etc)

I wondered how severe the damage could be
with respect to the coupler condition..

So why do you suspect the coupler? Moreover,
why do you suspect misalignment? What is the
history of this rig ?

Visually there is no way to tell the
difference between the two. Is there any other way to determine how was
my
coupler affected, could it be still OK?.

Again, I think you need to tell us more about the history
of this situation. Why do you suspect misalignment?
You should have pulled the outdrive and checked
alignment with an alignment tool before pulling the motor.
Was there ample greese in the splines?

What would constitute a definitive
damage to the coupler? Simplest would probably be to drop the boat on
the
water but this is out of the question at the moment (engine is still
disconnected). Any suggestions?

Your questions seem strange - why would you go
and pull the motor like this without checking into some
of the basics (like engine alignment) ??











"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Proxy" wrote in message
...
Hi,
I've been recently offered a used coupler as I suspected mine to be
shot.
I
lifted my 4.3 Merc and removed the old one. Both "new"-used one as well
as
the old one looked exactly the same. I inspected the rubber, splines
were
no
different and looked exactly identical to the smallest detail.

Since the suspected damage was due to the engine misalignment

So how did the engine get misaligned? or is this "suspected"
misalignment ? As I see it, the only way misalignment could
happen is the bushing in front tripod mount got beat out, or
someone messed with the adjustment, or something in the
transom mount, or the transom (or the entire structure) got
shifted, or racked ot something.


(lots of rattling and
clunking in the back of the engine (sounded like a piston rod broke
loose
and was hitting cylinder walls)

Sounds more like U-joints, or outdrive related. Did you check that ?
Also, check it with the cups on (in neutral) - should be able to walk
about the back and check it more closely. Since the U joints run at
the same speed at the engine (and connecting rods), that could be
your noise. (are you sure its *not* a connecting rod) ?

Is this an Alpha One drive? (or an older OMC etc ?)


and I ran the engine dry for about 3x 10-15 sec.

How ? 15 seconds, and *three* times?? I'd revisit
your boat operating procedures, because thats hard
to do, and quite frankly, on and a stern drive, thats
borderline operator abuse. (15 Sec is a LONG time).



(last occurrence with some (not much) blue smoke from behind the
engine, immediately shut down)

Blue smoke? god gawd!. What did the smoke smell like?
Oil, or other? (rubber, etc)

I wondered how severe the damage could be
with respect to the coupler condition..

So why do you suspect the coupler? Moreover,
why do you suspect misalignment? What is the
history of this rig ?

Visually there is no way to tell the
difference between the two. Is there any other way to determine how was
my
coupler affected, could it be still OK?.

Again, I think you need to tell us more about the history
of this situation. Why do you suspect misalignment?
You should have pulled the outdrive and checked
alignment with an alignment tool before pulling the motor.
Was there ample greese in the splines?

What would constitute a definitive
damage to the coupler? Simplest would probably be to drop the boat on
the
water but this is out of the question at the moment (engine is still
disconnected). Any suggestions?

Your questions seem strange - why would you go
and pull the motor like this without checking into some
of the basics (like engine alignment) ??

"William Andersen" wrote in message
news:dHxye.3791$HV1.1703@fed1read07...
I agree that running the engine without cooling water for a brief time
isn't
fatal to the engine...but it could ruin the plastic/nylon impeller.

In "60" seconds too I might add. Go read any Clymer, Force,
Chrysler etc manual - they all have photos in 15-second intervals
of what happens to the impeller with no water. 60 Seconds, its toast.
(his clunk is probably the impeller itself getting all chewed up) hehe.



"Proxy" wrote in message
...
It is simpler then you could imagine. Outdrive was out (Alpha One). Went
to
the mechanic, he used the alignment tool greased all and still could not
get
the drive inside (went in until last half inch and then stop, huge pain.
Checked alignment several time is my presence , suspected misaligned
engine
but the tool was showing +/-OK. He said yoke is not right (wrong)
although
that was running OK as to the previous owner (bought with the outdrive
out).
Gave my money back after a fight, he has torn 4 outdrive gaskets and was
in
killing mode (he spent 4 hrs). I went to my friend , he runs marine
services, he checked alignment, said "tight" but unlike the other guy
managed to install the drive in 20 min. Interestingly when the drive was
almost fully in (5-10 mm to go) the was a loud clunk, like the engine -
drive combo got in place but that was "unusual" according to him yet he
still proceeded, tightened the screws. Job done.
Subsequently I did some engine work, wanted to test it and ran the
engine
dry for 10 sec. - clunk, stopped, all seemed OK, checked the engine, no
issues, tried again 10 sec. same, stopped tried again more like 20 sec.
the
clunk was loud like a wrench inside a metal pipe rattling and hitting
sided
while rotating. Last try I ran the engine at fast idle (all was done on
a
trailer, no water.). Then I saw a small blue cloud and felt.rubber
smell.
I
thought coupler, plus u-joint rattle due to misalignment (previous owner
could have manipulated it (not me). My thinking was: replace the
coupler,
align the stuff install the drive and check then for further signs.
2 mechanics fu..ed up even though I told them both to align the engine
if
suspected. bad. Both said "we can handle it". Now I HAVE TO FIX THE
MESS:
I
think that has prolly contributed to this was the outdrive in up
position
(but prop was not moving) so not in gear. Rear engine mounts look OK. I
know
I need to check all but coupler is tough as the only to conclusively
test
it would
be on the water (for slippage). That would req. installing all back in,
launching, and then going back home to start dismantling again, kind of
stupid, don't u think?

As to running dry, no big deal, I have fixed more then a few seized
engines
(running fine) so I know where the limits are. Water or no water, block
temp
is to low to cause and damage except for impeller that I have written
off
anyway for this experiment. Within 1 min. the engine won't reach any
temp
that may be considered even close to dangerous. Same applies to cars.
All
u
need is lubrication and oil in the crankcase. Done it several times and
never seen any issue whatsoever even after a long time after that (2
years).
To me it seems logical and according to laws of physics. U need water to
cool hot/warm engine not the cold one. Just few remarks, nothing
personal.
After all this is a hobby for me, I'm not a pro, just happen to know few
things (except as described, to say the least).
Thanks.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Mr Wizzard"
Newsgroups: rec.boats
Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 3:25 AM
Subject: Engine coupler



"Proxy" wrote in message
...
Hi,
I've been recently offered a used coupler as I suspected mine to be
shot.
I
lifted my 4.3 Merc and removed the old one. Both "new"-used one as
well
as
the old one looked exactly the same. I inspected the rubber, splines
were
no
different and looked exactly identical to the smallest detail.

Since the suspected damage was due to the engine misalignment

So how did the engine get misaligned? or is this "suspected"
misalignment ? As I see it, the only way misalignment could
happen is the bushing in front tripod mount got beat out, or
someone messed with the adjustment, or something in the
transom mount, or the transom (or the entire structure) got
shifted, or racked ot something.


(lots of rattling and
clunking in the back of the engine (sounded like a piston rod broke
loose
and was hitting cylinder walls)

Sounds more like U-joints, or outdrive related. Did you check that ?
Also, check it with the cups on (in neutral) - should be able to walk
about the back and check it more closely. Since the U joints run at
the same speed at the engine (and connecting rods), that could be
your noise. (are you sure its *not* a connecting rod) ?

Is this an Alpha One drive? (or an older OMC etc ?)


and I ran the engine dry for about 3x 10-15 sec.

How ? 15 seconds, and *three* times?? I'd revisit
your boat operating procedures, because thats hard
to do, and quite frankly, on and a stern drive, thats
borderline operator abuse. (15 Sec is a LONG time).



(last occurrence with some (not much) blue smoke from behind the
engine, immediately shut down)

Blue smoke? god gawd!. What did the smoke smell like?
Oil, or other? (rubber, etc)

I wondered how severe the damage could be
with respect to the coupler condition..

So why do you suspect the coupler? Moreover,
why do you suspect misalignment? What is the
history of this rig ?

Visually there is no way to tell the
difference between the two. Is there any other way to determine how
was
my
coupler affected, could it be still OK?.

Again, I think you need to tell us more about the history
of this situation. Why do you suspect misalignment?
You should have pulled the outdrive and checked
alignment with an alignment tool before pulling the motor.
Was there ample greese in the splines?

What would constitute a definitive
damage to the coupler? Simplest would probably be to drop the boat on
the
water but this is out of the question at the moment (engine is still
disconnected). Any suggestions?

Your questions seem strange - why would you go
and pull the motor like this without checking into some
of the basics (like engine alignment) ??











"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Proxy" wrote in message
...
Hi,
I've been recently offered a used coupler as I suspected mine to be
shot.
I
lifted my 4.3 Merc and removed the old one. Both "new"-used one as
well
as
the old one looked exactly the same. I inspected the rubber, splines
were
no
different and looked exactly identical to the smallest detail.

Since the suspected damage was due to the engine misalignment

So how did the engine get misaligned? or is this "suspected"
misalignment ? As I see it, the only way misalignment could
happen is the bushing in front tripod mount got beat out, or
someone messed with the adjustment, or something in the
transom mount, or the transom (or the entire structure) got
shifted, or racked ot something.


(lots of rattling and
clunking in the back of the engine (sounded like a piston rod broke
loose
and was hitting cylinder walls)

Sounds more like U-joints, or outdrive related. Did you check that ?
Also, check it with the cups on (in neutral) - should be able to walk
about the back and check it more closely. Since the U joints run at
the same speed at the engine (and connecting rods), that could be
your noise. (are you sure its *not* a connecting rod) ?

Is this an Alpha One drive? (or an older OMC etc ?)


and I ran the engine dry for about 3x 10-15 sec.

How ? 15 seconds, and *three* times?? I'd revisit
your boat operating procedures, because thats hard
to do, and quite frankly, on and a stern drive, thats
borderline operator abuse. (15 Sec is a LONG time).



(last occurrence with some (not much) blue smoke from behind the
engine, immediately shut down)

Blue smoke? god gawd!. What did the smoke smell like?
Oil, or other? (rubber, etc)

I wondered how severe the damage could be
with respect to the coupler condition..

So why do you suspect the coupler? Moreover,
why do you suspect misalignment? What is the
history of this rig ?

Visually there is no way to tell the
difference between the two. Is there any other way to determine how
was
my
coupler affected, could it be still OK?.

Again, I think you need to tell us more about the history
of this situation. Why do you suspect misalignment?
You should have pulled the outdrive and checked
alignment with an alignment tool before pulling the motor.
Was there ample greese in the splines?

What would constitute a definitive
damage to the coupler? Simplest would probably be to drop the boat on
the
water but this is out of the question at the moment (engine is still
disconnected). Any suggestions?

Your questions seem strange - why would you go
and pull the motor like this without checking into some
of the basics (like engine alignment) ??

"Proxy" wrote in message
...

damage except for impeller that I have written off anyway for this
experiment.

Ah, Ok, I didn't realize that you wrote off the impeller (I missed that)
(but the rubber smell could be the impeller galling up down there)

So, you didn't say anything about the U-joints. And when
mechanic dude said the yoke "isn't right", whats that mean?
Wrong one, wrong size, or bad, or what?

have you peaked inside the outdrive? bled a little bit of
grear juice out the bottom of the lower unit to look for
shavings? You replaced the coupler, or said that there
is no visable damage, or difference between that one,
and the one that was given to you, so I can't see that
being the problem. Besides, think about it, there is
nothing really to rattle there - the spline is a very percision
fit, and nothing really to rattle. Things that can rattle a
connecting rods, pistons, U-joints, yokes, bevel gears etc.
Could they have missed the shift-shaft lever alignment when
putting the outdive on? - dog clutch caught between gears?
Its all a pretty solid chunk of metal down there, so noise
can be transmitting from anywhere.

Hate to be stupid here, but are you SURE its not the motor?
i.e. since your not worried about water, cooling, impellers,
can you pop the outdrive off, and try to run the motor wihtout
the outdrive ? And whats the gimbal bearing look like ?
The front input shaft bearing for the outdive unit itself ?

Keep us posted.

Thanks. At this stage I'm not even thinking about rattling/clunking noise.
When I put the engine together I'll have one more chance to reexamine
everything. I have the engine hanging on chains and wonder how do I go about
the coupler. The rest will come later. One thing I know 4 sure that 2
mechanics have missed the alignment part (or thought that it may be ignored
for a while and both were wrong). Most upsetting is that I pointed that out
to both and from that moment became an annoyance. They seemed to have no
appreciation for other point of view at the moment.

Now, I've had a look at the coupler and seen zero damage but.since the idea
of the coupler is to inject a weak point into the drive system to protect
crank and drive shafts I wonder where is the breaking point for a coupler.
If a spun coupler (for a few secs) may still be usable or regardless of its
look should be replaced anyway. With other words, is this enough to spin it
just one turn to break the rubber layers bond or does it remain good until
the spinning visually separates rubber bushings (burned, melted rubber would
be visible then). Since the engine is stripped of exhaust I have to work
backwards, start with the coupler, put the exhaust, linkage, electrical
together and test yoke/u-joint play, engine alignment and potentially
outdrive issues. Just don't want to put it back together to later have to
dismantle it again to yank the coupler out. I don't feel like going back and
forth few times over.

As indicated impeller is just a cost of testing which I don't mind.
Otherwise I see no issues with running the engine dry as long as there is
sufficient lubrication. As I said I've done it several times on different
engines always successfully without any issues or signs of trouble (no need
for cooling something that is still cold). But that issue is beyond the
scope of this subject. Coupler is.
Btw. Cobra has the best setup allowing impeller removal in just few minutes.
Very handy, at least in my opinion.

My take is this: the engine was out of alignment which has caused u-joint
jamming momentarily and that has caused coupler to let go for a moment (blue
smoke from the engine compartment - back of the engine - typical for coupler
failure) and was immediately shut down.


"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Proxy" wrote in message
...

damage except for impeller that I have written off anyway for this
experiment.

Ah, Ok, I didn't realize that you wrote off the impeller (I missed that)
(but the rubber smell could be the impeller galling up down there)

So, you didn't say anything about the U-joints. And when
mechanic dude said the yoke "isn't right", whats that mean?
Wrong one, wrong size, or bad, or what?

have you peaked inside the outdrive? bled a little bit of
grear juice out the bottom of the lower unit to look for
shavings? You replaced the coupler, or said that there
is no visable damage, or difference between that one,
and the one that was given to you, so I can't see that
being the problem. Besides, think about it, there is
nothing really to rattle there - the spline is a very percision
fit, and nothing really to rattle. Things that can rattle a
connecting rods, pistons, U-joints, yokes, bevel gears etc.
Could they have missed the shift-shaft lever alignment when
putting the outdive on? - dog clutch caught between gears?
Its all a pretty solid chunk of metal down there, so noise
can be transmitting from anywhere.

Hate to be stupid here, but are you SURE its not the motor?
i.e. since your not worried about water, cooling, impellers,
can you pop the outdrive off, and try to run the motor wihtout
the outdrive ? And whats the gimbal bearing look like ?
The front input shaft bearing for the outdive unit itself ?

Keep us posted.

You have gotten a lot of good information so far. Here's some more.

Water is needed, not only to keep the engine cool, but also cools power
steering fluid, and those rubber hoses between the exhaust riser and
wishbone. The exhaust shutters, and plastic water pickup fitting in the
upper gearcase are also in the path of hot exhaust gasses. Also, the engine
should not be started with the sterndrive in the tilted position. You risk
tearing the u-joint bellow, damaging the gimbal bearing, u-joints, and
possibly the engine coupler. The u-joints, at the very least will make a
very unhappy noise if run at extreme angles.

Look carefully at the coupler splines and the splines on the sterndrive
yoke. If you had an allignment problem, you should see evidence on the
splines. To test for coupling, you will need an old yoke with the u-joint
removed. Hold the coupler in a fixture or mount it on the engine. Put the
yoke in the coupler and a 2' pipe thru the u-joint socket. The coupler
should be able to take at least 200lb torque without slipping. One other
test you might do is to check for runout. I'll let you figure out how to do
that.

You should take the top cover off the sterndrive and make sure everything
looks happy inside.
You should drain all the gear oil and make sure you don't see metal filings
or water.
You should install a new water pump body kit after finding and removing all
broken impeller pieces.
You should make sure the upper gear housing moves freely while feeling for a
bad bearing.Same goes for lower gearcase,except you need to check
for proper shifting.
You should check for propshaft runout.

I'm sure I left out a lot of details and would hope you have the proper OEM
service manuals to guide you.

Hope some of this information is helpful.

Good Luck
JIMinFL


"Proxy" wrote in message
news
Thanks. At this stage I'm not even thinking about rattling/clunking noise.
When I put the engine together I'll have one more chance to reexamine
everything. I have the engine hanging on chains and wonder how do I go
about the coupler. The rest will come later. One thing I know 4 sure that
2 mechanics have missed the alignment part (or thought that it may be
ignored for a while and both were wrong). Most upsetting is that I pointed
that out to both and from that moment became an annoyance. They seemed to
have no appreciation for other point of view at the moment.

Now, I've had a look at the coupler and seen zero damage but.since the
idea of the coupler is to inject a weak point into the drive system to
protect crank and drive shafts I wonder where is the breaking point for a
coupler. If a spun coupler (for a few secs) may still be usable or
regardless of its look should be replaced anyway. With other words, is
this enough to spin it just one turn to break the rubber layers bond or
does it remain good until the spinning visually separates rubber bushings
(burned, melted rubber would be visible then). Since the engine is
stripped of exhaust I have to work backwards, start with the coupler, put
the exhaust, linkage, electrical together and test yoke/u-joint play,
engine alignment and potentially outdrive issues. Just don't want to put
it back together to later have to dismantle it again to yank the coupler
out. I don't feel like going back and forth few times over.

As indicated impeller is just a cost of testing which I don't mind.
Otherwise I see no issues with running the engine dry as long as there is
sufficient lubrication. As I said I've done it several times on different
engines always successfully without any issues or signs of trouble (no
need for cooling something that is still cold). But that issue is beyond
the scope of this subject. Coupler is.
Btw. Cobra has the best setup allowing impeller removal in just few
minutes. Very handy, at least in my opinion.

My take is this: the engine was out of alignment which has caused u-joint
jamming momentarily and that has caused coupler to let go for a moment
(blue smoke from the engine compartment - back of the engine - typical for
coupler failure) and was immediately shut down.


"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Proxy" wrote in message
...

damage except for impeller that I have written off anyway for this
experiment.

Ah, Ok, I didn't realize that you wrote off the impeller (I missed that)
(but the rubber smell could be the impeller galling up down there)

So, you didn't say anything about the U-joints. And when
mechanic dude said the yoke "isn't right", whats that mean?
Wrong one, wrong size, or bad, or what?

have you peaked inside the outdrive? bled a little bit of
grear juice out the bottom of the lower unit to look for
shavings? You replaced the coupler, or said that there
is no visable damage, or difference between that one,
and the one that was given to you, so I can't see that
being the problem. Besides, think about it, there is
nothing really to rattle there - the spline is a very percision
fit, and nothing really to rattle. Things that can rattle a
connecting rods, pistons, U-joints, yokes, bevel gears etc.
Could they have missed the shift-shaft lever alignment when
putting the outdive on? - dog clutch caught between gears?
Its all a pretty solid chunk of metal down there, so noise
can be transmitting from anywhere.

Hate to be stupid here, but are you SURE its not the motor?
i.e. since your not worried about water, cooling, impellers,
can you pop the outdrive off, and try to run the motor wihtout
the outdrive ? And whats the gimbal bearing look like ?
The front input shaft bearing for the outdive unit itself ?

Keep us posted.

Appreciate the info on the coupler.
As to the dry run seems that you are echoing same thing that I've already
heard. Let me repeat then, no engine or major engine part will get hot
within the time intervals that I'm talking about. Not even exhaust. Exhaust
shutters are made for high temp, and plastic water pickup does not expel
exhaust gasses, "those rubber hoses" you refer to are made for exhaust,
let's not forget, and under normal operating conditions withstand very high
temp.
As I said before, no need to cool if something is still barely warm. Try it
or you will never know. Nothing personal.




"JIMinFL" wrote in message
ink.net...
You have gotten a lot of good information so far. Here's some more.

Water is needed, not only to keep the engine cool, but also cools power
steering fluid, and those rubber hoses between the exhaust riser and
wishbone. The exhaust shutters, and plastic water pickup fitting in the
upper gearcase are also in the path of hot exhaust gasses. Also, the
engine should not be started with the sterndrive in the tilted position.
You risk tearing the u-joint bellow, damaging the gimbal bearing,
u-joints, and possibly the engine coupler. The u-joints, at the very least
will make a very unhappy noise if run at extreme angles.

Look carefully at the coupler splines and the splines on the sterndrive
yoke. If you had an allignment problem, you should see evidence on the
splines. To test for coupling, you will need an old yoke with the u-joint
removed. Hold the coupler in a fixture or mount it on the engine. Put the
yoke in the coupler and a 2' pipe thru the u-joint socket. The coupler
should be able to take at least 200lb torque without slipping. One other
test you might do is to check for runout. I'll let you figure out how to
do that.

You should take the top cover off the sterndrive and make sure everything
looks happy inside.
You should drain all the gear oil and make sure you don't see metal
filings or water.
You should install a new water pump body kit after finding and removing
all broken impeller pieces.
You should make sure the upper gear housing moves freely while feeling for
a bad bearing.Same goes for lower gearcase,except you need to
check for proper shifting.
You should check for propshaft runout.

I'm sure I left out a lot of details and would hope you have the proper
OEM service manuals to guide you.

Hope some of this information is helpful.

Good Luck
JIMinFL


"Proxy" wrote in message
news
Thanks. At this stage I'm not even thinking about rattling/clunking
noise. When I put the engine together I'll have one more chance to
reexamine everything. I have the engine hanging on chains and wonder how
do I go about the coupler. The rest will come later. One thing I know 4
sure that 2 mechanics have missed the alignment part (or thought that it
may be ignored for a while and both were wrong). Most upsetting is that I
pointed that out to both and from that moment became an annoyance. They
seemed to have no appreciation for other point of view at the moment.

Now, I've had a look at the coupler and seen zero damage but.since the
idea of the coupler is to inject a weak point into the drive system to
protect crank and drive shafts I wonder where is the breaking point for a
coupler. If a spun coupler (for a few secs) may still be usable or
regardless of its look should be replaced anyway. With other words, is
this enough to spin it just one turn to break the rubber layers bond or
does it remain good until the spinning visually separates rubber bushings
(burned, melted rubber would be visible then). Since the engine is
stripped of exhaust I have to work backwards, start with the coupler, put
the exhaust, linkage, electrical together and test yoke/u-joint play,
engine alignment and potentially outdrive issues. Just don't want to put
it back together to later have to dismantle it again to yank the coupler
out. I don't feel like going back and forth few times over.

As indicated impeller is just a cost of testing which I don't mind.
Otherwise I see no issues with running the engine dry as long as there is
sufficient lubrication. As I said I've done it several times on different
engines always successfully without any issues or signs of trouble (no
need for cooling something that is still cold). But that issue is beyond
the scope of this subject. Coupler is.
Btw. Cobra has the best setup allowing impeller removal in just few
minutes. Very handy, at least in my opinion.

My take is this: the engine was out of alignment which has caused u-joint
jamming momentarily and that has caused coupler to let go for a moment
(blue smoke from the engine compartment - back of the engine - typical
for coupler failure) and was immediately shut down.


"Mr Wizzard" wrote in message
...

"Proxy" wrote in message
...

damage except for impeller that I have written off anyway for this
experiment.

Ah, Ok, I didn't realize that you wrote off the impeller (I missed that)
(but the rubber smell could be the impeller galling up down there)

So, you didn't say anything about the U-joints. And when
mechanic dude said the yoke "isn't right", whats that mean?
Wrong one, wrong size, or bad, or what?

have you peaked inside the outdrive? bled a little bit of
grear juice out the bottom of the lower unit to look for
shavings? You replaced the coupler, or said that there
is no visable damage, or difference between that one,
and the one that was given to you, so I can't see that
being the problem. Besides, think about it, there is
nothing really to rattle there - the spline is a very percision
fit, and nothing really to rattle. Things that can rattle a
connecting rods, pistons, U-joints, yokes, bevel gears etc.
Could they have missed the shift-shaft lever alignment when
putting the outdive on? - dog clutch caught between gears?
Its all a pretty solid chunk of metal down there, so noise
can be transmitting from anywhere.

Hate to be stupid here, but are you SURE its not the motor?
i.e. since your not worried about water, cooling, impellers,
can you pop the outdrive off, and try to run the motor wihtout
the outdrive ? And whats the gimbal bearing look like ?
The front input shaft bearing for the outdive unit itself ?

Keep us posted.