How many have during Bush's watch?


NOYB wrote:
Bush didn't give N. Korea $4 billion in aid in exchange for an empty
promise.


Got any proof it was just an "empty promise"?

Looks to me (and the rest of the world) that their promise was good...
they didn't build nukes until well after President Bush came into office
and kicked over the applecart.




How many do you think will?


I don't believe Bush will give any aid to Kim...so the question is moot.


Then why is Condi making offers? So as to make another hollow gesture at
diplomacy?


Or Iran?


I think it's more likely that Israeli or US forces will strike suspected
Iranian nuke sites than inspect them. The Iranians don't appear to be
willing to cave on the nuke inspection issue.


The option of making strikes at Iranian facilities must be kept on the
table until we're certain they're not building warheads... or even dirty
bombs... but they're smart enough to've put key facilities far
underground in hard-to-find places... even if you wouldn't have thought
of it. Got any idea how big a country Iran is? Remember Libya? Think
they haven't learned anything, just because you haven't?



Or Libya? And why do you think any inspection teams *have* to be led by an
American?


Led, accompanied by, whatever. The point is inspection teams with US
representatives on them.


That's better. But the point is that the inspection teams see everything
and come away with *real* assurance that no weapons are being produced.


The "protocols" change from administration to administration. Clinton
believed in appeasement

Says you. Whatever Clinton did, it worked. Proven.


... Bush believes in pre-emption.


Hard to say what Bush believes in, he's done everything from make
promises to making empy threats to actually invading countries that
present no threat to us.

DSK

"DSK" wrote in message
.. .
How many have during Bush's watch?


NOYB wrote:
Bush didn't give N. Korea $4 billion in aid in exchange for an empty
promise.


Got any proof it was just an "empty promise"?

Looks to me (and the rest of the world) that their promise was good...
they didn't build nukes until well after President Bush came into office
and kicked over the applecart.


How do you know the promise was good? They didn't allow inspectors in to
verify during Clinton's Presidency. Then Bush announces that he's going to
push for inspections, and Voila! N. Korea claims they have nukes and plan
on reconstituting there nuclear program. Sounds like a case of the hand
caught in the cookie jar.




How many do you think will?


I don't believe Bush will give any aid to Kim...so the question is moot.


Then why is Condi making offers? So as to make another hollow gesture at
diplomacy?



She's not making offers. She said that she doesn't believe aid to N. Korea
would hurt the negotiation and inspection process.

Or Iran?


I think it's more likely that Israeli or US forces will strike suspected
Iranian nuke sites than inspect them. The Iranians don't appear to be
willing to cave on the nuke inspection issue.


The option of making strikes at Iranian facilities must be kept on the
table until we're certain they're not building warheads... or even dirty
bombs... but they're smart enough to've put key facilities far underground
in hard-to-find places... even if you wouldn't have thought of it. Got
any idea how big a country Iran is? Remember Libya? Think they haven't
learned anything, just because you haven't?



Or Libya? And why do you think any inspection teams *have* to be led by
an American?


Led, accompanied by, whatever. The point is inspection teams with US
representatives on them.


That's better. But the point is that the inspection teams see everything
and come away with *real* assurance that no weapons are being produced.


The "protocols" change from administration to administration. Clinton
believed in appeasement

Says you. Whatever Clinton did, it worked. Proven.


... Bush believes in pre-emption.


Hard to say what Bush believes in, he's done everything from make promises
to making empy threats to actually invading countries that present no
threat to us.


He's just continuing with the long-established Presidential policy of
"intentional ambiguity".

Bush didn't give N. Korea $4 billion in aid in exchange for an empty
promise.


Got any proof it was just an "empty promise"?


NOYB wrote:
How do you know the promise was good?

Because they did not build nukes during that period, and did not have
any nukes when George Bush Jr came into office... otherwise, why would
they bother to start up their enrichment plant and start building them then?


.... Bush announces that he's going to
push for inspections, and Voila! N. Korea claims they have nukes and plan
on reconstituting there nuclear program.

Umm, no. They didn't "claim to have nukes," they pulled some fuel from a
depot (verified by satellite) and started an enrichment program
(verified by satellite) and said they were starting to build some nukes.

.. Sounds like a case of the hand
caught in the cookie jar.

No, it sounds like you have no clue what's involved in building a
nuclear fission device, and are willing to distort the facts (and lie
too) to try and "prove" your point.

DSK

Scooby Doo wrote:

sherwindu wrote in
:



Scooby Doo wrote:

sherwindu wrote in
:



Scooby Doo wrote:

Shortwave Sportfishing wrote in
:

Who - the Israelis? I thought they only used missiles on people
in wheel chairs?

What, terrorists can't ride around in wheel chairs? That should
help us narrow our search for these crazies. Only wheel chair
incident I recall is when the Arabs pushed a Jewish man in a wheel
chair off a cruise boat. Now that's a brave thing to do.

Yes, "The Arabs" did that. Everyone of them, via their elected
representatives and officially inducted military. Oh, wait, no, it
was just a couple of nuts. It's the elected representatives and
officially inducted military of *Israel* that kills, maims and
bulldozes innocents.

No, the Israeli army protects it's citizens.

1. It's "its", not "it's".

OK, you win all the arguements because of a gramatical mistake. How juvenile.



2. The international community has determined that those "citizens" are
living in occupied territory illegally. Even Ariel Sharon has
acknowledged as much, even though as others here have pointed out, the
Gaza "withdrawal" (if and when it actually happens" creates a prison for
the Pal's more than a country.

Unfortunately the
'couple' of nuts you mentioned is the pervasive mentality of the
Palestinians.

Proof? Didn't think so.

Hey, I spent 5 years of my life living in that region. What are your
credentials (reading the Palestinian websites, I imagine)?



For many years, their goal was to kill all Jews or
push them into the Mediterranean.

Living under illegal military occupation for 38 years will do that to ya,
ya know?

The Palestinians have had that goal even before Israel occupied the
territories. Nothing has changed.



The death toll for Palestinian CHILDREN is FOUR TIMES that of
Israelis.

Much of that is because the terrorists use children as human
shields.

Proof? Didn't think so.

When you see news coverage of uprisings in the territories, it is a bunch
of kids opposing the Israeli Army. They send their children to do their
dirty work.



Some of Israel's security
measures, like building walls, may seem extreme to some people, but
try and imagine yourself living there under a constant threat of
terrorist attack.

Try living for 38 years under military occupation. At this point,
it's EVERY DAY OF THEIR LIVES FOR A MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION.

There are all kinds of military occupations. Certainly the USA
occupation of Japan and Germany was not the same as the German and
Japanese occupation of the countries they occupied. The
Palestinians who obey the law and do not engage in terrorism do not
fear for their lives.

Tell that to the grandmothers whose homes are destroyed.

The Nazi's did much worse. By the way, it was the British that instituted the
policy of destroying the homes of terrorists. You might prefer that they take
the families out and shoot them like the Germans did in WWII.



Their biggest problem is economic.

Correct. Because of Israeli blockades and economic terrorism. The
Israeli has been known to burn down entire orchards of date trees - for
many villages their only means of economic survival.

Their
rich cousins in the Gulf states send meager amounts of money that
seem to always wind up in Yasser Arafat's Swiss Accounts, or go to
buying weapons.

Earth to moron: Arafat is dead.

I'm glad you enlightened me, as I sure needed that bit of information. We
are discussing an ongoing problem, not just today's realities. Arafat was typical
of the Palestinian infrastructure, and I'm sure his methods are being carried
out today. Your rhetoric leads me to believe I am discussing something with
a teenager, or someone who has not fully emerged from puberty.



Until the Palestinians
can show they have control of their own population, there is no
trusting them on security issues.

How many investigations of espionage and treason involving the
Palestinians have been conducted or are underway?

A lot more than any investigations the Palestinians are doing of
their terrorists.

Another pathetic dodge. When will you understand that Israel is NOT an
ally of the United States?

Well, I'm glad you are not determining our foreign policy. Why don't you
pick on a more deserving country, like France?

Scooby Doo wrote:

HarryKrause wrote in
:

Scooby Doo wrote:

Another pathetic dodge. When will you understand that Israel is NOT an
ally of the United States?


Israel is the only reliable ally the United States has in the Middle
East, dummy.

“It is difficult for me . . . to conceive of a greater harm to national
security than that caused by the defendant in view of the breadth, the
critical importance to the United States and the high sensitivity of the
information he sold to Israel . . . I respectfully submit that any U.S.
citizen, and in particular a trusted government official, who sells U.S.
secrets to any foreign nation should not be punished merely as a common
criminal. Rather the punishment imposed should reflect the perfidy of the
individual actions, the magnitude of the treason committed, and the needs
of national security.”

- Caspar Weinberger, US Secretary of Defense, in reference to the Jonathan
Pollard case.

For 13 years, Israel lied to the United States and the world, claiming
that Pollard was not one of their operatives, before finally admitting
such:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/91260.stm

Now there is an investigation concerning the leaking of US policy towards
Iran involving AIPAC and the Israeli embassy. Several of the players
involved have ties to Iran-Contra and to the forged Niger/Iraq documents.

Hey Mr. Proof Man, where is yours?



If this is an "ally" I'd hate to think what you consider an "enemy" to be.

You fail to mention that Israel is the only true democracy in the entire Middle East.

You also fail to mention that Israel has provided valuable technical and strategic
information to the US Armed Forces that have saved many lives.

Many countries have spied on the USA. It's part of the diplomatic game. Should we
break off diplomatic ties with Britain because of the Philby affair, and I could go on and
on. You seem to be holding Israel to a special standard, and makes me think you have
a special agenda for them, beyond what logic would dictate.

Scooby Doo wrote:

sherwindu wrote in
:

2. The international community has determined that those "citizens"
are living in occupied territory illegally. Even Ariel Sharon has
acknowledged as much, even though as others here have pointed out,
the Gaza "withdrawal" (if and when it actually happens" creates a
prison for the Pal's more than a country.

Unfortunately the
'couple' of nuts you mentioned is the pervasive mentality of the
Palestinians.

Proof? Didn't think so.

Hey, I spent 5 years of my life living in that region.

Nice to know that Hagallah is still recruiting. Or are you Irgun?

This shows how ignorant you are of the other side of this history.
It is Haganah, not Hagallah. I bet you never read a book about
the history of Israel by a non-arab.



For many years, their goal was to kill all Jews or
push them into the Mediterranean.

Living under illegal military occupation for 38 years will do that to
ya, ya know?

The Palestinians have had that goal even before Israel occupied the
territories. Nothing has changed.

Ah, perhaps you refer to UN Plan 184, which created an Israel HALF its
current size. The Israelis agreed to 184, then seized the other half of
Palestine.

Let's get the record clear. Your use of 'seized' implies taken without cause.
Don't forget, those territories were taken in a war where Israel's surrounding
neighbors tried to annihalate them.



The death toll for Palestinian CHILDREN is FOUR TIMES that of
Israelis.

Much of that is because the terrorists use children as human
shields.

Proof? Didn't think so.

When you see news coverage of uprisings in the territories, it is a
bunch
of kids opposing the Israeli Army. They send their children to do
their dirty work.

Ah, "when you see news coverage". By Jayson Blair? Janet Cooke? Judith
Miller? Or the Newsweek editors who darkened O.J.'s face?

No, I'm refering to NBC, ABC, CBS, BBC, etc., etc.



Try living for 38 years under military occupation. At this point,
it's EVERY DAY OF THEIR LIVES FOR A MAJORITY OF THE POPULATION.

There are all kinds of military occupations. Certainly the USA
occupation of Japan and Germany was not the same as the German
and Japanese occupation of the countries they occupied. The
Palestinians who obey the law and do not engage in terrorism do
not fear for their lives.

Tell that to the grandmothers whose homes are destroyed.

The Nazi's did much worse.

Godwin. Plonk.

What is this jibberish?



By the way, it was the British that
instituted the policy of destroying the homes of terrorists.

As it was Irgun (David Ben-Gurion and Menachem Begin's cute little club)
that instituted the policy of bombing hotels.

You
might prefer that they take the families out and shoot them like
the Germans did in WWII.

Double Godwin. Double plonk.

More jibberish.



Well, I'm glad you are not determining our foreign policy. Why
don't you pick on a more deserving country, like France?

At least France supplies us with quality food and beverages.

Well, I suggest you move there and join all the other European Israel/Jew haters.

On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:26:39 -0500, sherwindu wrote:


Godwin. Plonk.

What is this jibberish?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

Oh, I get it now. It's ok to blast Israel, but let's protect those Nazi's from abuse.

Sherwin D.

thunder wrote:

On Fri, 05 Aug 2005 23:26:39 -0500, sherwindu wrote:

Godwin. Plonk.

What is this jibberish?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law