On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 11:01:46 -0400, mono sect wrote:

Looking at these numbers helps one to understand the wisdom of our
forefathers in creating the Electoral College system. The difference in
the vote count in just New York City might have elected Al Gore, in a
popular vote only system.

http://www.rosecity.net/al_gore/election_map.html

There's considerable blue on that map. If land could vote, but it can't,
so what's your point? There were several reasons our founding fathers set
up the Electoral College. One of them was to avoid partisan politics.

http://www.fec.gov/pdf/eleccoll.pdf

On 23 Jun 2004 02:44:27 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

Please Chuckie, whats your definition of a neocon?

(Since you asked)

Rather than a person who is newly conservative, (which a neocon may or may not
be), a neocon is a person who subscribes to the "new" conservatism.

The new conseratism is a black vs. white philosophy. All things are either very
good, or very wicked. The new conservatism, like all philosophies, defines its
own values as the "very good" values and all others as the "very wicked". All
values are extreme in neoconservatism. The Commander in Chief (they seldom
refer to him anymore as the president) is God's Chosen Leader for the American
People, and those who oppose or even question Him are aiding and abetting our
rapidly increasing number of enemies.

Limbaugh, Hannity, Coulter, Savage, and others epitomize the voices of
neoconservatism. It is a narrow minded and hateful, self congratulatory and
autovindicated system of belief.

However, before all four conservatives who will even bother to read this pick
up the nearest flame-thrower and come back with the moral-equivalency excuses
about liberals do this, this, and this.......

Not all conservatives are neocons. There are a handful of traditional
conservatives left in the world. The traditional conservatives are shocked at
the current size of the federal government and the dismal state of government
fiscal affairs. The traditional conservatives respect dissent, (recognizing
that at times it is their own voices that will be those of dissent, rather than
majority) and are not trapped by binary thinking. I have a very high regard for
traditonal, thoughtful, contemplative, rational conservatives.

The neo con says, "You're either with me, or against me!" The traditional
conservative says, "We either agree, or we need to work out a solution that
will be at least somewhat acceptable to all sides. It could be that neither of
us is *absolutely* right, and that there is more truth in the middle than on
either extreme."

So, no. A neocon isn't somebody who "used to be a liberal but saw the light".
(That's a fairly binary concept, that all people are either liberal or
conservative, anyway). A neocon is a binary thinker who used to be a liberal,
moderate, or traditional conservative but who has been blinded by the
propaganda and bulldung. Not exactly the same thing. :-)

(You asked)


If a traditional conservative was a liberal, then he/she is a neoconservative.
Perhaps you mean to say that Rush, Coulter, etc. are right wing extremists. I
don't agree with that, but unless they were former liberals, which they may have
been, then they aren't neoconservatives.

I disagree with the concept that they are even extremists. They just fight
against the extreme left, thus getting their own title.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

John H wrote:

If a traditional conservative was a liberal, then he/she is a neoconservative.
Perhaps you mean to say that Rush, Coulter, etc. are right wing extremists. I
don't agree with that, but unless they were former liberals, which they may have
been, then they aren't neoconservatives.

Fortunately for you, you don't have to qualify in knowledge of modern
English in order to babysit as a sub...

And your point is?

I see you failed to address the questions that I posed,

There was no need, Dave.

The question was, "Is neo-conservatism an absolute and binary philosophy?"

Rather than identify with the classic or traditional conservatives, (about whom
I said some respectful things), you elected to defend neo-conservatism.

While defending neo-conservatism against my charges of polarized perceptions
and self vindicating philosophies, you chose to use a series of absolutist,
binary, rebuttals.

That's similar to posting, "Whuyt the heck do yu mein I dont kno how to spiel?"
The body of your rebuttal carries the opposing argument. No point to kick you
any further when you're down.

If a traditional conservative was a liberal, then he/she is a
neoconservative.

Reread what you wrote. Very slowly.

Regardless what a traditional conservative *was*, anybody who can be
indentified as a traditional conservative *is* just that. A traditional
conservative.

Those who subscribe to neo-conservaTISM
are neo-cons, regardless of previous affilitations or beliefs. One can
"progress" from rational conservatism to neo-conservatism. No detour to
liberalism required.

On 23 Jun 2004 17:53:17 GMT, (Gould 0738) wrote:

If a traditional conservative was a liberal, then he/she is a
neoconservative.

Reread what you wrote. Very slowly.

Regardless what a traditional conservative *was*, anybody who can be
indentified as a traditional conservative *is* just that. A traditional
conservative.

Those who subscribe to neo-conservaTISM
are neo-cons, regardless of previous affilitations or beliefs. One can
"progress" from rational conservatism to neo-conservatism. No detour to
liberalism required.

Any conservative who *was* a liberal *is* a neoconservative. Why is Webster not
sufficient as a source any longer?

Who coined and defined the term 'neocon'? Apparently it wasn't Webster, and I'd
be willing to bet that it was coined as a derogatory term by someone of the
liberal persuasion.

This isn't an archaic definition, it's what is used today:

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

One entry found for neoconservative.


Main Entry: neo·con·ser·va·tive
Pronunciation: -k&n-'s&r-v&-tiv
Function: noun
: a former liberal espousing political conservatism
- neo·con·ser·va·tism /-v&-"ti-z&m/ noun
- neoconservative adjective


John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:27:10 -0400, Harry Krause wrote:

John H wrote:

If a traditional conservative was a liberal, then he/she is a neoconservative.
Perhaps you mean to say that Rush, Coulter, etc. are right wing extremists. I
don't agree with that, but unless they were former liberals, which they may have
been, then they aren't neoconservatives.

Fortunately for you, you don't have to qualify in knowledge of modern
English in order to babysit as a sub...

Harry, you've shown your colors. Goodbye.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!

John H wrote:
Any conservative who *was* a liberal *is* a neoconservative. Why is Webster not
sufficient as a source any longer?

So, if this definition is correct, then Bush & Cheney not to mention
Wolfowitz etc etc all *used* to be liberals?

Interesting. When was this, exactly?

DSK

John H wrote:
On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 13:27:10 -0400, Harry Krause wrote:

John H wrote:

If a traditional conservative was a liberal, then he/she is a neoconservative.
Perhaps you mean to say that Rush, Coulter, etc. are right wing extremists. I
don't agree with that, but unless they were former liberals, which they may have
been, then they aren't neoconservatives.

Fortunately for you, you don't have to qualify in knowledge of modern
English in order to babysit as a sub...

Harry, you've shown your colors. Goodbye.

John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!


John, it isn't my problem that you are a simple-minded fool, lazy, and
cannot figure out the modern-day meaning of a word in common usage. It
is, however, a problem for the school district where you sub. That and
your disdain for the black students in the schools where you sub make
you quite a piece of work.

If you weren't so intellectually lazy and working so hard at being
disengenuous, you'd know that "neoconservative refers to the extremist
right-wing ideology of the current Republican leadership which, though
it sprung out of the conservative movement, isn't conservative at all in
any traditional sense (in that radicalism is, by definition, not
conservative). This definition seems to be the dominant one."

No cite for you. Easy enough to find.

On Wed, 23 Jun 2004 14:34:47 -0400, DSK wrote:

John H wrote:
Any conservative who *was* a liberal *is* a neoconservative. Why is Webster not
sufficient as a source any longer?

So, if this definition is correct, then Bush & Cheney not to mention
Wolfowitz etc etc all *used* to be liberals?

Interesting. When was this, exactly?

DSK

Doug, I didn't make up the definition. Go he

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionar...ve&x=10 &y=13

I have no reason to think the dictionary got it wrong. If Bush, et al, are
neoconservatives, then, by definition, they were former liberals who are now
espousing political conservatism.

If they are not former liberals, then they are not neoconservatives, by
definition.


John H

On the 'Poco Loco' out of Deale, MD
on the beautiful Chesapeake Bay!