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#31
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DaggerAnimas
"Michael Daly" wrote in message ... "Stable, all-around river runner . comfortable cockpit for larger paddlers . long waterline for speed and tracking . for those who prefer a longer, more predictable kayak . choice beginner kayak or big water boat for anyone" "Long waterline for ... tracking" "more predictable kayak" would seem to imply a broader spectrum of usability than is actually the case. There's nothing wrong with that statement as it applies to a whitewater kayak. Your expectations are what's wrong. ... You voted Republican, didn't you. LOL |
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#32
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DaggerAnimas
"Suds (Popeye's friend)" wrote in message ... There's nothing wrong with that statement as it applies to a whitewater kayak. Your expectations are what's wrong. ... You voted Republican, didn't you. LOL Now, if someone would only be kind enough to work Hitler in here somewheres, we'll just invoke Godwin's law and kill this goddamned thread as dead as the horsey puddle back there aways..... |
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#33
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DaggerAnimas
Roger Houston wrote:
Now, this raises another point -- and one that at least in part contributed to my misinterpretation of the characterization of the first boat as a "beginner's" boat. I've been in whitewater on a raft, and the prospect of being on it in a solo kayak seemed to me to be somewhat daunting. Would you expose a "raw" kayaking beginner to whitewater? I personally wouldn't -- I'd want the individual to have had at least some experience paddling, turning, rolling, bracing, getting a feel for tipping so that the counterintuitive response to a broach on a rock would be less counterintuitive, etc. How raw is raw? In the 10+ years I've been teaching WW canoe and kayak, I put beginners on Class I-II (well, there's a II++ at the end of one river) after 5 or 6 hours of fla****er instruction. I also put touring boaters in the surf on day 2. They generally do fine. Most of them can't roll at the time of their first river trip, but that doesn't dempen their enthusiasm any. That's yet another reason I was somewhat incredulous that the "Sit And Spin" was a "beginner's" boat. A beginning whitewater paddlers, boat -- yeah, probably, as you guys have pointed out. A beginner's kayak, period? Heck, no. We've had discussions about the concept of "beginner's boats" here in the past. A lot of what pass for beginner boats are really dead end boats (I don't mean this in a disparaging way. Some of my friends have happily put a lot of miles on Pungos). But many boats sold as beginner boats are designed to get you on the water with the minimum investment of $ and learning time. Nothing wrong with that if you just want something to keep at the lake house for guests to dink around with, but these types of boats do not lead to increased mastery of the skill of paddling. They tend to be too stable, among other things, so that you can't learn to edge into turns. You can't roll them, and you certainly can't learn to roll in them. They are not suited for anything but very sheltered water. So if you want to paddle WW, it's better to start in a real WW boat, although probably not the latest and greatest (and smallest) playboat. Someting more like, dare I say, an Animas. On the other hand, if you're serious about touring, you probably need a touring boat narrower than 25" and longer than 14'. Ideally, one boat could do it all, but it can't, any more than one bicycle or car can take you from dirt to asphalt. So it's necessary to try a few things out to see whether you want to put the effort into learning them. Maybe a little frustrating at first, but it can pay off later. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA |
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#36
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DaggerAnimas
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#37
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DaggerAnimas
On 12-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote: And exactly what is that environment? Can you prove that it is safer than any other? Uh. Prove that it is safer...well, I'd say a sheltered bay with a sandy bottom is safer than Niagara Falls. What is it you are saying that is different than what I already said the pros do? You accused me of not understanding that swimming in whitewater is dangerous. No, I'm pointing out that you are ignoring that issue and assuming that a rank amateur with no instruction will be able to magically acquire the skills to handle WW on his own. No competent WW instructor, professional or otherwise, would suggest that a paddler learn WW on his own. WW is a dangerous environment and requires paddlers to learn how to handle the conditions and work together on the water. With an instructor, the student has an experienced person standing by. With the solo learner, there's no support. They will be objective third party news articles. Which still proves nothing in support of your arguments. Mike |
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#38
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DaggerAnimas
in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 10/13/05 1:55 AM: On 12-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote: And exactly what is that environment? Can you prove that it is safer than any other? Uh. Prove that it is safer...well, I'd say a sheltered bay with a sandy bottom is safer than Niagara Falls. What is it you are saying that is different than what I already said the pros do? Why are you moving away from the question that was posed? Is that the Michael Daly way of saying "You are right of course, I apologize. Now here's something else I'd like to ask you about?" In any event, I think you'll find I answer this question below. You accused me of not understanding that swimming in whitewater is dangerous. No, I'm pointing out that you are ignoring that issue and assuming that a rank amateur with no instruction will be able to magically acquire the skills to handle WW on his own. And, yet again, there is no foundation for this statement, and it is quite false. It's not magic at all. A self-taught paddler (as you seem to understand from your question above) would indeed follow a similar path as they would be led down by an instructor. This really isn't rocket science. You experiment, make observations, make adjustuments, and repeat. You start in fla****er, move to I/II, and move to increasingly challenging environments as you improve. I wouldn't recommend learning WW alone, but that doesn't mean you have to have a professional instructor in order to learn and continue developing in a self-taught manner. No competent WW instructor, professional or otherwise, would suggest that a paddler learn WW on his own. I've met few people who make their living on professional instruction recommending that people learn on their own for free instead. But it's a rather silly all or nothing statement to suggest that not one competent instructor would ever say this. I've spoken to some myself who are quite honest in saying that they know many a fine self-taught WW paddler. WW is a dangerous environment and requires paddlers to learn how to handle the conditions and work together on the water. Yes. Well, I've yet to meet any paddlers who refuse to work together with a competent self-taught paddler. With an instructor, the student has an experienced person standing by. With the solo learner, there's no support. Now you've changed your emphasis completely. So it's about having an experienced person standing by? Once again, you never asked me anything about this. Had you simply said "Don't you think, in a challenging WW environment, that it makes sense to have an experienced person standing by?" I'd have replied in the affirmative. The fact that high-risk activities are often best conducted with others has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. We are talking about whether or not it is possible to learn kayaking skills without professional instruction. Try, for once, to stay on track. And when you find that your logic fails, try, for once, simply admitting it instead of trying to distract and dodge from the issue. They will be objective third party news articles. Which still proves nothing in support of your arguments. Mike Then I guess there's no point, and I guess you will never answer the question. What a surprise! Just to recap (and reminding you that I have answered all of your questions, even the ones that were obvious dodges from questions you were attempting to escape) the question to you was as follows: Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If so, I'd like to see it. |
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#39
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DaggerAnimas
On 13-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote: Why are you moving away from the question that was posed? The question posed was nonsense from KMAN. You keep avoiding the issues surrounding your claims. I pointed out how the professionals will instruct a new paddler in WW. You made a reference that ignored what I had already stated. I'm just trying to get you to realize that you can't seem to follow the discussion. A self-taught paddler (as you seem to understand from your question above) would indeed follow a similar path as they would be led down by an instructor. How would this self-taught paddler know what path to follow? How do you know they won't just plunge into class 4 WW - after all, that's what they see on TV. I've spoken to some myself who are quite honest in saying that they know many a fine self-taught WW paddler. Name them - and these magical students. I've taught many sports over the years and have yet to find these magically skilled self-taught athletes. I've come across lots of folks who can do a mediocre job of imitating the experts but need a lot of work to get good. On rare occasions, I meet someone, usually an accomplished athlete in another sport, who learns particularly well or quickly from watching others, but that;s not the same as learning, as you say, " experiment, make observations, make adjustuments[sic], and repeat". So it's about having an experienced person standing by? Once again, you never asked me anything about this. Had you simply said "Don't you think, in a challenging WW environment, that it makes sense to have an experienced person standing by?" I'd have replied in the affirmative. Which goes against your position that one learns adequately on one's own. Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If so, I'd like to see it. Since it is you who espouses the non-standard view, perhaps you should be the one offereing proof. You constantly insist that self-taught are safer and as good as otherwise, but have never offered one iota of proof. |
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#40
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DaggerAnimas
"Michael Daly" wrote in message ... On 13-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote: Why are you moving away from the question that was posed? The question posed was nonsense from KMAN. You keep avoiding the issues surrounding your claims. I pointed out how the professionals will instruct a new paddler in WW. You made a reference that ignored what I had already stated. I'm just trying to get you to realize that you can't seem to follow the discussion. Perhaps it would help if you would specify. You tend to reply by removing any context and then making generalized whinings and complaints. I'm quite certain that throughout this discussion I've been quite specific, and have addressed your questions in a direct fashion. A self-taught paddler (as you seem to understand from your question above) would indeed follow a similar path as they would be led down by an instructor. How would this self-taught paddler know what path to follow? How do you know they won't just plunge into class 4 WW - after all, that's what they see on TV. If your point is that some people are stupid, point taken. As I've said, I can point you to countless third-party verifiable tales of professionally trained people who perish doing stupid things. It's possible there are people who buy a WW kayak and go directly into class 4 and die. Can you point me to some verifiable stories where this has happened? Is this common? Or are you just making the point that someone who has done no learning and goes into a set of class IV rapids would be in a lot of danger? If so, may I say, once again, you need only ask me: "Do you think it's a good idea for a new kayaker to plunge into class 4 WW?" because, yet again, I would have replied in the affirmative. My point - and a very different one - is that someone who wants to teach themselves something - anything, including kayaking - can do so if they understand just the basics of how things are learned. People do it every day. You experiment, you observe, you progress, you experiment, you observe, you progress. I've spoken to some myself who are quite honest in saying that they know many a fine self-taught WW paddler. Name them - and these magical students. Oddly enough, I don't think it's a good idea to give you the opportunity to smear their names. I will however see if they are interested in coming into this corner of the world and joining with me to tell you what an ass you are, but that would be up to them, and I don't know if they are usenet folks. But if you get tired of waiting I bet if you go a google on "self-taught" and "kayaker" you can read for weeks. I've taught many sports over the years and have yet to find these magically skilled self-taught athletes. I've taught many sports over the years and have found many skilled self-taught athletes. I've also met many pompous blowhards who think their position as coach or teacher should require god-like reverance, because they fail to understand their role is to facilitate the learning of the athlete, not open their brain and pour in their own knowledge like Moses from on high. I've come across lots of folks who can do a mediocre job of imitating the experts but need a lot of work to get good. I've come across many folks (like yourself) who consider themselves experts but have impossibly warped understandings of the learning process. It's interesting to see. On rare occasions, I meet someone, usually an accomplished athlete in another sport, who learns particularly well or quickly from watching others, but that;s not the same as learning, as you say, " experiment, make observations, make adjustuments[sic], and repeat". Too bad you don't understand or experience the world that way. I can't imagine how boring and even frightening life must be if there is nothing you think possible without an "expert" to guide you. So it's about having an experienced person standing by? Once again, you never asked me anything about this. Had you simply said "Don't you think, in a challenging WW environment, that it makes sense to have an experienced person standing by?" I'd have replied in the affirmative. Which goes against your position that one learns adequately on one's own. No, it doesn't in the least. I'm talking about learning without getting professional instruction. I never said you should do everything alone. This is not a debate about going solo. It's about learning - you seem to think people can only learn with professional instruction. I strongly disagree. People learn things all the time without professional instruction, and there is nothing to say they cannot learn better using their own methods than a professional instructor's methods. One need look no further than the last time I clobbered the club tennis instructor. He still doesn't believe I never had professional lessons. You'd probably get along well with him. I beat him worse every time we play - because I experiment, observe, adjust, progress...poor ******* can't figure out why he seems to be getting worse every time we play. Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If so, I'd like to see it. Since it is you who espouses the non-standard view, perhaps you should be the one offereing proof. You constantly insist that self-taught are safer and as good as otherwise, but have never offered one iota of proof. So you are not going to answer the question? I have never insisted or even implied that self-taught is safer. All I have said is that it is entirely possible to learn to kayak well and safely without a professional instructor. Do you disagree? If so: Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If so, I'd like to see it. If you refuse to answer yet again, I think it would be fair to assume that you don't have the evidence. |
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