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"Courtney" wrote in message
ink.net...
I have a whitewater canoe and a flat water canoe and even have a sea kayak
as well as my whitewater kayaks. What can I say, I just love paddling all
types of water. Are you thinking of going with a canoe instead?

Courtney

A boat that could morph from canoe to kayak on demand would be awesome :-D

"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...

Anyone on here have a canoe?

I dunno.....I've quite enjoyed it
"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...

"KMAN" wrote in message
.. .

My part in the discussion came about because I felt that opinions were
being expressed to suggest that one cannot learn to kayak without
professional instruction.

As the guy who started the whole thing by asking why the subject boat was
hard for a "beginner" to control, I must express my sincerest apologies
for
ever having posted. The group seems to be wound fairly tightly, with a
few
pretty helpful people and a bunch of people with a lot of free-floating
hostility.

Most of the "paddling" that goes on here is on one another's butts.

Anyone on here have a canoe?

"Roger Houston" wrote in
:

"KMAN" wrote in message
.. .

My part in the discussion came about because I felt that opinions were
being expressed to suggest that one cannot learn to kayak without
professional instruction.

As the guy who started the whole thing by asking why the subject boat
was hard for a "beginner" to control, I must express my sincerest
apologies for ever having posted.

Despite the fact that the posting generated a lot of heated debate it also
hopefully produced some useful information.

The group seems to be wound fairly
tightly, with a few pretty helpful people and a bunch of people with a
lot of free-floating hostility.

That's not really any different from pretty much every other online forum
I've been involved in. Some people clearly just likely to argue/debate are
seem to be more concerned about being right and "winning" an argument than
spreading useful information. It's pretty easy to determine who those
people are just be looking over the archives and seeing who is involved in
long debates.

Most of the "paddling" that goes on here is on one another's butts.

Anyone on here have a canoe?

I do, along with three touring kayaks (actually, one of them I'm rebuilding
due to it's nearly fatal encounter with a fallen tree branch that was 15" in
diameter and 30' long) and a whitewater kayak (that I mostly use in the
winter for rolling practice at pool sessions).

KMAN:

I was wondering why I couldn't find your original posts on my newsreader
yesterday, and I have realized that it was because I plonked you in my
bitbucket a long time ago preceisely because of your willful insistence
on misrepresenting what other people say. As I pointed out below, NO ONE
has said that you need professional instruction. In fact, I wasn't even
talking about instruction as much as your apparent desire to progress in
learning as slowly as possible. You won't address what I said at all,
and unlike Mike, I don't really get any thrills out of fencing with you, so
PLONK.

Steve

KMAN wrote:
"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...

"KMAN" wrote

My part in the discussion came about because I felt that opinions were
being expressed to suggest that one cannot learn to kayak without
professional instruction.

Who ever said such a thing? Could you please quote that post? Mike has
been pretty clear that instruction is a good thing, and you have been
pretty clear on the opposite sentiment, that it's better to figure out
things on your own.

In another thread you said "The common assumption is often that learning
is something to rush through in order to arrive at enjoyment. Well, if you
like sex that last about 30 seconds, then I guess that's the right
philosophy! Personally I find the journey is just as important as the
destination, and that goes for paddling too :-) " and "Learning is
exciting. The problem is some people think it is something to
avoid or get past as quickly as possible. "

That's rather far from my ideas. I'll suggest a couple a things that I
believe, that you apparently don't.

1. Knowledge and skill are beter than ignorance. We begin every new
activity in a state of ignorance. Most people do in fact choose to get
past that state fairly rapidly, because...

2. Activities pursued skillfully are more fun than those pursued clumsily.
This is certainly true for boating. Being able to place the boat where you
want it, to play, to surf: that's great fun. More fun than just floating
down the river because you don't know how to paddle skillfully.

You are falling into the same trap of assuming that learners who do not hire
professionals to teach them are incapable of advancing beyond floating down
the river. Thus my participation in this thread, as this is wholly untrue.

"Learning is exciting," you say, which is certainly true, but then you say
"some people think it is something to avoid or get past as quickly as
possible." You NEVER get past learning. All the same, I can't imagine
anyone saying, as you seem to, "I'm in no hurry to get skillful; I'd like
to remain ignorant and clumsy as long as possible."

I've said no such thing. I've been trying to explain that people can and to
become skillful without professional instructino. I think I've been pretty
clear about that. Maybe take a read through again.

I'm not criticizing you for that belief, just pointing out that I think
you're in a distinct minority. Certainly the people who come to me don't
think so. In fact, many have said things like "I had been paddling on my
own for along time and didn't seem to be making much progress, but this
class showed me how to improve."

I can believe that. Because, sadly, our society has become rather dependent
on structured learning and many people have lost the ability to learn on
their own.

3. Activities pursued skillfully are safer than those pursued clumsily.

Agreed.

You are clearly concerned with safety, so this should be persuasive even
if the earlier comments weren't. The more challenging the water, the more
important this point is. If you're content with a protracted, casual
learning progress, you limit the number of places you can go safely. Of
course, if you don't want to do challenging water, that's fine, but don't
denigrate people who do want to develop skills to get on something like
the Chatooga. As someone said earlier "There are lots of rivers out there
and not much time to enjoy them."

You are missing the point again. All I am saying is it is possible to become
skillful without professional instruction.

BTW, earlier you called me "a professional who isn't an asshole" (which
may be one of the sweeter things ever said to me on Usenet), but I'm not
really a professional, even though I do receive money for classes
sometimes. I'm not really a super expert paddler, either. Mainly what I am
is an inveterate, incorrigible instructor. People who paddle with me get
instruction even if they aren't paying for it. I just can't help myself.
You probably don't want to paddle with me.

Not if you give me instruction when I haven't asked for it. Otherwise, no
problem.

And I still don't think you are an asshole, but you have done a terrible job
of interpreting my position, and unfortunately, you may also be a victim of
our over-structured culture where you sincerely believe that people cannot
be proficient learners without a professional to teach them.

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

And BTW, although a white water guy through and through, I also own 2 Mohawk
XL-13's ok so they are WW canoes but....I still have a Prijopn Yukon
Expedition from my touring days which I will still take out twice a year or
so and support the flat water side of my club. And YES, it has a rudder, but
I NEVER EVER use it, I swear!!!
"Grip" wrote in message
...
I dunno.....I've quite enjoyed it
"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...

"KMAN" wrote in message
.. .

My part in the discussion came about because I felt that opinions were
being expressed to suggest that one cannot learn to kayak without
professional instruction.

As the guy who started the whole thing by asking why the subject boat
was
hard for a "beginner" to control, I must express my sincerest apologies
for
ever having posted. The group seems to be wound fairly tightly, with a
few
pretty helpful people and a bunch of people with a lot of free-floating
hostility.

Most of the "paddling" that goes on here is on one another's butts.

Anyone on here have a canoe?

I find myself torn between Mike's approaches to many topics and those
of KMAN. Mike speaks to the geeky nerd in me while KMAN addresses my
tendencies to anarchy and resistance to all things organized. While
they do tend to go on and on, I find a little something of value on
both their contributions.

My rational side agrees with Mike on this issue. However, hell will be
frozen over before I'll ever find myself enrolled in a kayaking course
(you will, however, see me lurking on the fringes of such classes
picking up whatever bons mots I can); could be that I'm just plain
cheap.

So, as far as I'm concerned, Mike and KMAN; carry on but perhaps figure
out when you're starting to flog dead horses GRIN... and I will
continue to enjoy my rudder even though I could paddle straight if I
wanted to. Really! I could! And without lessons!

Cheers

On 14-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

That's the outcome of the professionalization of recreation.

And you claim that you don't denigrate professionals.

You're so full of ****, Keenan.

Mike

On 14-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

I've been trying to explain that people can and to
become skillful without professional instructino.

"Can" isn't the same thing as "will". That's the part you
refuse to accept and what Steve is trying to explain.
As I have said repeatedly - _some_ people can learn without
instruction; _most_ people cannot.

Mike

Michael:
==============
That's the outcome of the professionalization of recreation.

And you claim that you don't denigrate professionals.

You're so full of ****, Keenan.
===============

I don't denigrate professionals, but, I too, wonder at the
"professionalization of recreation".

Why can't kids play soccer (hockey, basketball, etc) anymore, without
going to camps lead by ex-pro athletes? Apparently the lowly parent
subbing players as required in games isn't good enough for some. Why
must people assume they have to take lessons to ski? I skiied for
several years, having a great deal of fun, putting the weight on the
wrong foot when turning (I assumed it was like skating); lessons would
have sped up the learning of that fact, but I'm not sure I would have
had more fun.

Michael, I'm not opposed to lessons, but I think our society
occasionally gets carried away with the formalization of recreation
(just look at all the people signing up for cooking lessons; fer
crissakes, it's not rocket science!!!! -- read a friggin' cookbook!!!).

My $0.02 -- and no denigration of professionals

On 15-Oct-2005, "BCITORGB" wrote:

Why can't kids play soccer (hockey, basketball, etc) anymore, without
going to camps lead by ex-pro athletes? Apparently the lowly parent
subbing players as required in games isn't good enough for some.

There is a problem with organized sports and that problem is parents.
They want to live the successful athlete's life vicariously through
their kids.

However, most organized sports consists of well-meaning dads and moms
helping their kids play for fun. Those moms and dads may not be as
obvious as the loud-mouthed nutcase parents, but they are by far in
the majority. Friends and relatives of mine are in that category.
My brother-in-law has done a lot of good with kids in curling. If
it isn't fun, he makes sure the kids make the right decision about
whether to continue.

Michael, I'm not opposed to lessons, but I think our society
occasionally gets carried away with the formalization of recreation
(just look at all the people signing up for cooking lessons; fer
crissakes, it's not rocket science!!!! -- read a friggin' cookbook!!!).

That's fine - you can take lessons if you want. Otherwise you can
learn on your own. But that's not the same thing as saying that
professional instructors are somehow bad. And cooking isn't rocket
science - it's chemistry :-)

In defense of cooking instruction - there are a lot of things that just
can't be explained well in a cookbook - folding for example - 30 seconds
of demonstration is better than hours of reading. I learned to cook
from watching my mom and cooking shows as a kid - the former for the
basics and the latter for the fancy stuff.

I've learned a lot over the years from lots of people. I'm not
going to pretend that I don't owe them a great deal. That doesn't mean
that I desperately need a professional instructor - even a single
word from an experienced person can turn on a light.

Mike