Roger Houston wrote:
"Courtney" wrote in message
ink.net...

Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to
name
just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should
help you with your choices.

As I mentioned in another post, I won't check out Dagger's site as a source
of primary information. Not knowing anything else about the boat, what is
written on their site at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257
would lead one to believe that the boat tracks and is predictable for
beginners, neither of which proved to be the case with the boat in question.

I think I'll ask on here; the ng seems to have been a source of pretty
reliable information in other respects.

The fact that Dagger's site lists it among the whitewater kayaks didn't
suggest anything to you? As whitewater boats go, it's stable and
predictable. NO WW boat tracks well on fla****er, they are designed to
turn, not track.

I can understand that you and your friend are upset, but it's the
salesman's fault for misleading you, not Dagger's

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...

The fact that Dagger's site lists it among the whitewater kayaks didn't
suggest anything to you?

In retrospect only. I navigated directly from Google to the product page at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257.
That little tab at the top that says "Whitewater" is orange on red, a
minimally visible combination, and I saw it after the fact. Not an excuse,
but a reason.

I can understand that you and your friend are upset, but it's the
salesman's fault for misleading you, not Dagger's

As I said, I think the classification of the watercraft is less prominently
displayed than it could have been. This plus the salesman's obvious lack of
knowledge of the craft contributed to my being misled. I'm sure Dagger
appreciates your pro bono defense of them. Yes, it's all my fault, as I
acknowledged in a different post. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
I don't know how many more people want to chime in and castigate me, but
have at it, I don't much care. You'll indulge my reluctance not to post my
GPS coordinates so you all can't come over, line up and spank me.

As I said, the boat's for sale and the (different shop) proprietor /
salesman is pretty confident he'll be able to sell it for me on consignment.
In fact, I think he has a buyer in mind, someone who knows what he wants and
wants a boat that does uncommanded donuts in the hands of a beginner but
will do exactly what an expert wants. And another boat, a FLA****er rental
veteran with lots of miles left on it, has my name on it for about the same
price. So everything is status quo ante except that I've revealed my
ignorance for all of you to point out, and some of you have had a chance to
display your blindingly superior knowledge of this discipline. I imagine
you were never beginners and of course you don't make mistakes.

Me, I'll be more careful whom I trust. Thanks to those who offered to
answer my questions on here. I hooked up with a fellow in real life who's
as kind and knowledgeable as most of you have proven to be. Kind AND
knowledgeable. A nice combination, and not universal attributes. Right,
Steve?

Maria Teresa Chupacabra wrote:

"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...

The fact that Dagger's site lists it among the whitewater kayaks didn't
suggest anything to you?

In retrospect only. I navigated directly from Google to the product page at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257.
That little tab at the top that says "Whitewater" is orange on red, a
minimally visible combination, and I saw it after the fact. Not an excuse,
but a reason.

I can understand that you and your friend are upset, but it's the
salesman's fault for misleading you, not Dagger's

As I said, I think the classification of the watercraft is less prominently
displayed than it could have been. This plus the salesman's obvious lack of
knowledge of the craft contributed to my being misled. I'm sure Dagger
appreciates your pro bono defense of them. Yes, it's all my fault, as I
acknowledged in a different post. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
I don't know how many more people want to chime in and castigate me, but
have at it, I don't much care. You'll indulge my reluctance not to post my
GPS coordinates so you all can't come over, line up and spank me.

As I said, the boat's for sale and the (different shop) proprietor /
salesman is pretty confident he'll be able to sell it for me on consignment.
In fact, I think he has a buyer in mind, someone who knows what he wants and
wants a boat that does uncommanded donuts in the hands of a beginner but
will do exactly what an expert wants. And another boat, a FLA****er rental
veteran with lots of miles left on it, has my name on it for about the same
price. So everything is status quo ante except that I've revealed my
ignorance for all of you to point out, and some of you have had a chance to
display your blindingly superior knowledge of this discipline. I imagine
you were never beginners and of course you don't make mistakes.

Me, I'll be more careful whom I trust. Thanks to those who offered to
answer my questions on here. I hooked up with a fellow in real life who's
as kind and knowledgeable as most of you have proven to be. Kind AND
knowledgeable. A nice combination, and not universal attributes. Right,
Steve?

Whoo, touchy, aren't we? Perhaps you have gotten a lot of feedback you
didn't want, but such is the nature of usenet. I was merely commenting
on your blaming Dagger for the mistake. There's nothing about the Dagger
site that's misleading. Mea culpa doesn't work if you continue to blame
other people unfairly. Ask your local priest.

You might want to actually look at URLs before you click on them.
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257.
^^^^^^^
But you don't want any more advice from me, do you?

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257.
^^^^^^^
But you don't want any more advice from me, do you?

Nope.

And, as I said, I navigated from Google, so the URL I sent was originally
embedded in a link. I said fairly plainly that it wasn't an excuse but a
reason.

This is a friend's computer BTW hence the different username.

The kayak's gone, its replacement is on the way, but you still seem to be
here. There's the door.

Roger.

"Maria Teresa Chupacabra" wrote in
news:1128873819.6400fd394e268329017cac7a75936ab2@t eranews:


"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257
.
^^^^^^^
But you don't want any more advice from me, do you?

Nope.

And, as I said, I navigated from Google, so the URL I sent was
originally embedded in a link. I said fairly plainly that it wasn't an
excuse but a reason.

This is a friend's computer BTW hence the different username.

The kayak's gone, its replacement is on the way, but you still seem to
be here. There's the door.

First, what did you get to replace it?

Secondly, I've been reading this group for about 8 years and believe that
Steve has been here as long as I have or longer. Coming into a forum and
asking a long time regular to leave is not a very good way to gain favor
from him and other regulars. Now that you've got (or getting) a new kayak
you'll probably have a lot more questions regarding using it. I know that
at least I would be more likely to spend time providing answers if I thought
they'd be met with a bit more congenialtiy.

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .

First, what did you get to replace it?

Another kayak.

Some of the long-time regulars on here will agree with my choice, others
will not. More to the point, I found a shop I hadn't visited for quite some
time. Good guy, I'd bought climbing and camping gear off him. It suddenly
dawned on me that (duhhhh.....) they sell KAYAKS there too. Off to the
shop, another mea culpa or three for having overlooked them in my quest for
a kayak, and now I'm all set. Shop has a better customer, I have a real
knowledgeable salesman / mentor who actually cares whether the thing works
for us or not, and will stand behind the thing and do everything in his
power to make it work. He will also sell the highly coveted Animas for what
I paid for it at the (now defunct) other shop, and he'll sell it to someone
who knows what it is and how to use it, who has a roofrack to transport it
the many miles to waters where it's the right boat for the job.

Secondly, I've been reading this group for about 8 years and believe that
Steve has been here as long as I have or longer. Coming into a forum and
asking a long time regular to leave is not a very good way to gain favor
from him and other regulars.

You're at least partially right. I (Roger here again, not using Maria
Teresa's computer today) should have said something different. Of course
nobody can get kicked off of UseNet, right? So my response to him was
hyperbolic. Unlike this most recent spanking you've just administered, my
summary execution and expulsion of Steve was quite improper and unjustified.
I'm sorry I know neither the ritual nor the incantations to gain favor from
the in crowd. But thanks to you guys, I now know that WW doesn't just stand
for "wrong way".

I should have made a different observation, though, instead of kicking Steve
off the internet. The horse was dead when Steve rode up. Now, it's a
large, unpleasant oily blot on the shoulder of the road, and as recently as
a day ago, Steve was still obsessively beating it. That's what I SHOULDA
said. He can come back anytime and stay as long as he wants, and beat that
poor old horse-stain as long as he pleases. I don't care.

Now that you've got (or getting) a new kayak
you'll probably have a lot more questions regarding using it.

Yes, I will. And I won't ask guys named Steve who spend their valuable time
finding brand new and creative ways to repetitively tell me I stuffed up. I
knew it when he rode up. Shee-yit, it was me killed the damn horse in the
first place, remember?

I know that
at least I would be more likely to spend time providing answers if I
thought
they'd be met with a bit more congenialtiy.

Rightly so. But I don't know you, and you don't know me, and free advice
(as I recently re-learned to my embarrassment, once in real life and
repeatedly on R.B.P) is usually worth what you pay for it. If you run a
shop, and I stop in, I will ask you questions. The difference between that
and my Animas "experience" will be that I will assess your credibility as a
knowledgeable kayak guy before I once again plunk down my hard-earned. I
will assess you as a businessman the old fashioned way, not as a "long-time
regular" on some electronic discussion group where the veracity of Dirty
Harry's observation about opinions and orifices is so frequently borne out.
AS often, I hasten to add, as is the old saw about speaking up. as I did,
and removing all doubt.

My new/old kayak guy runs a business and his advice is worth my money. I
don't know that about you, or about Steve. I will run my own business doing
what I'm good at and successful at, and my kayak guy will run his. You guys
are entertaining to read, but you're a bit clannish and at least some of you
have a tendency to haze newcomers. My thanks to those who don't.

"Roger Houston" wrote in
:


"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .

First, what did you get to replace it?

Another kayak.

I know that. I was just curious as to what brand/model you replaced it
with.

Some of the long-time regulars on here will agree with my choice,
others will not.

You could replace the words "my choice" in the above sentence with just
about any topic and you'd pretty much be right.

More to the point, I found a shop I hadn't visited
for quite some time. Good guy, I'd bought climbing and camping gear
off him. It suddenly dawned on me that (duhhhh.....) they sell KAYAKS
there too. Off to the shop, another mea culpa or three for having
overlooked them in my quest for a kayak, and now I'm all set. Shop has
a better customer, I have a real knowledgeable salesman / mentor who
actually cares whether the thing works for us or not, and will stand
behind the thing and do everything in his power to make it work. He
will also sell the highly coveted Animas for what I paid for it at the
(now defunct) other shop, and he'll sell it to someone who knows what
it is and how to use it, who has a roofrack to transport it the many
miles to waters where it's the right boat for the job.

Sounds like you found a good shop to work with. It sounds quite a bit like
the shop a friend of mine owns.


Secondly, I've been reading this group for about 8 years and believe
that Steve has been here as long as I have or longer. Coming into a
forum and asking a long time regular to leave is not a very good way
to gain favor from him and other regulars.

You're at least partially right. I (Roger here again, not using Maria
Teresa's computer today) should have said something different. Of
course nobody can get kicked off of UseNet, right? So my response to
him was hyperbolic. Unlike this most recent spanking you've just
administered, my summary execution and expulsion of Steve was quite
improper and unjustified. I'm sorry I know neither the ritual nor the
incantations to gain favor from the in crowd.

There are not rituals or incantations. From my 20+ years experience with
Usenet I've found that generally getting testy if the answers to your
questions don't exactly meet your expectations is likely going to provide
equally testy responses.

I should have made a different observation, though, instead of kicking
Steve off the internet. The horse was dead when Steve rode up. Now,
it's a large, unpleasant oily blot on the shoulder of the road, and as
recently as a day ago, Steve was still obsessively beating it. That's
what I SHOULDA said. He can come back anytime and stay as long as he
wants, and beat that poor old horse-stain as long as he pleases. I
don't care.

It sounds like your biggest beef about it is that more than one person
responded with essentially the same information (that the Animas *is*
actually a WW boat). That's just the way Usenet works. Those that read and
respond don't always check to see if a question has already been answered,
and even when they do, might reword a response. Sometimes it looks like a
pile-on a dead horse but you *do* have the option of just ignoring a post
that appears to be directed to you if you feel you've sufficiently addressed
an issue.

Now that you've got (or getting) a new kayak you'll probably have a
lot more questions regarding using it.

Yes, I will. And I won't ask guys named Steve who spend their valuable
time finding brand new and creative ways to repetitively tell me I
stuffed up.

I doubt that was intent and it's unfortunate that you'll categorically
exclude "guys named Steve" based on one incident as there are several guys
named Steve here that can provide a lot of useful information.

I know that
at least I would be more likely to spend time providing answers if I
thought they'd be met with a bit more congenialtiy.

Rightly so. But I don't know you, and you don't know me, and free
advice (as I recently re-learned to my embarrassment, once in real life
and repeatedly on R.B.P) is usually worth what you pay for it.

Stick around this group long enough and you'll discover that among those
providing free advice include instructors and shop owners with decades of
experience, kayak designers, kayak company reps and founders, book and trade
magazine article authors (including yours truely), and plenty of just plain
good people with years and years of paddling experience.


If you
run a shop, and I stop in, I will ask you questions. The difference
between that and my Animas "experience" will be that I will assess your
credibility as a knowledgeable kayak guy before I once again plunk down
my hard-earned. I will assess you as a businessman the old fashioned
way, not as a "long-time regular" on some electronic discussion group
where the veracity of Dirty Harry's observation about opinions and
orifices is so frequently borne out. AS often, I hasten to add, as is
the old saw about speaking up. as I did, and removing all doubt.

I'm not sure how running a shop correlates with knowledge and advice about
kayak models. If anything, someone that *doesn't* own a shop is more likely
going to be less biased regarding a recommendation. It's entirely possible
that the original shop owner for the Animus was more interested in unloading
some stock than provided the right kayak for the job. I also know of quite a
few shops where the proprietors are businessmen first and paddlers (assuming
they even paddle) second.


My new/old kayak guy runs a business and his advice is worth my money.
I don't know that about you, or about Steve.

I know that if you had posted *before* you bought the Animus it would have
been pretty clear consensus in the responses as to whether it was a good
match for you. Specificially, I would have suggested that there are very
few kayaks that are designed as "beginners" kayaks (though many are marketed
that way) and that the more important criteria is how well a model suits the
type of water you're likely going to be paddling. I've also discovered that
for many, until you start paddling a variety of types of water it's
difficult to know what kinds of paddling you prefer. That makes choosing a
first boat (and recommending one) rather difficult.

I will run my own
business doing what I'm good at and successful at, and my kayak guy
will run his. You guys are entertaining to read, but you're a bit
clannish and at least some of you have a tendency to haze newcomers.

I suppose when a group of people participate in a social forum for a long
period of time they get to know each other and can seem clanish but in my
experience any hazing to newcomers is almost always in response to a
newcomer becoming belligerant when their question are not being answered to
their satisfaction.

My thanks to those who don't.

Maria Teresa Chupacabra wrote:
"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...

The fact that Dagger's site lists it among the whitewater kayaks didn't
suggest anything to you?

In retrospect only. I navigated directly from Google to the product page at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257.
That little tab at the top that says "Whitewater" is orange on red, a
minimally visible combination, and I saw it after the fact. Not an excuse,
but a reason.

I can understand that you and your friend are upset, but it's the
salesman's fault for misleading you, not Dagger's

As I said, I think the classification of the watercraft is less prominently
displayed than it could have been. [snip]

Well, in Dagger's defense, they probably made the assuption --
correctly in most cases -- that visitors would navigate to that
particular description after entering at their "home" page. In that
case the visitor would have had to actively press the white-on-red
"Whitewater" tab (which *then* changes to orange-on-red) to get to the
list of whitewater boats. The fact that you might have googled
directly to that page is a subtety their web designer should have
considered, but corporate management (boat-builders, right? Not
necessarily web-savvy) might be forgiven for having failed to consider
the possibility.

Don't feel too bad. When yer new to a sport, hobby, activity, it takes
a while just to discover how much you don't know (I understand yer an
experienced canoeist; I'm refering to your novelty wrt kayaking).
No-one -- least of all Steve Cramer -- in this newsgroup is malicious;
it's just the ol' hastily-typed written-communication-between-strangers
thing, the stuff flame-wars are made of, that doesn't happen in
face-to-face conversations between well-meaning people. Did I set a
record for "number of hyphens in one sentence", or must I keep trying?

But I digress. Even the fact of being steered wrong by the salesman is
not very unusual; I couldn't count the number of people I have heard
from who bought the wrong boat first time out. Including me (I mean,
it *said* "whitewater" right in the name of the model -- the Mohawk
Whitewater 16; how was I to know it was vastly inappropriate for solo
paddling of serious whitewater?) If there is any kind of livery or
kayak school in yer vicinity, yer friend could go a long way toward
nailing down her choice of boat by test-driving a few, and maybe taking
a class and discussing in detail with the instructor the kind of
boating she wants to do (of course, the validity of this can also vary
with the instructor; I've met a few who were so focused on their own
paddling style that they could not be trusted to make unbiased
suggestions).

-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
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