Maria Teresa Chupacabra wrote:

"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...

The fact that Dagger's site lists it among the whitewater kayaks didn't
suggest anything to you?

In retrospect only. I navigated directly from Google to the product page at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257.
That little tab at the top that says "Whitewater" is orange on red, a
minimally visible combination, and I saw it after the fact. Not an excuse,
but a reason.

I can understand that you and your friend are upset, but it's the
salesman's fault for misleading you, not Dagger's

As I said, I think the classification of the watercraft is less prominently
displayed than it could have been. This plus the salesman's obvious lack of
knowledge of the craft contributed to my being misled. I'm sure Dagger
appreciates your pro bono defense of them. Yes, it's all my fault, as I
acknowledged in a different post. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.
I don't know how many more people want to chime in and castigate me, but
have at it, I don't much care. You'll indulge my reluctance not to post my
GPS coordinates so you all can't come over, line up and spank me.

As I said, the boat's for sale and the (different shop) proprietor /
salesman is pretty confident he'll be able to sell it for me on consignment.
In fact, I think he has a buyer in mind, someone who knows what he wants and
wants a boat that does uncommanded donuts in the hands of a beginner but
will do exactly what an expert wants. And another boat, a FLA****er rental
veteran with lots of miles left on it, has my name on it for about the same
price. So everything is status quo ante except that I've revealed my
ignorance for all of you to point out, and some of you have had a chance to
display your blindingly superior knowledge of this discipline. I imagine
you were never beginners and of course you don't make mistakes.

Me, I'll be more careful whom I trust. Thanks to those who offered to
answer my questions on here. I hooked up with a fellow in real life who's
as kind and knowledgeable as most of you have proven to be. Kind AND
knowledgeable. A nice combination, and not universal attributes. Right,
Steve?

Whoo, touchy, aren't we? Perhaps you have gotten a lot of feedback you
didn't want, but such is the nature of usenet. I was merely commenting
on your blaming Dagger for the mistake. There's nothing about the Dagger
site that's misleading. Mea culpa doesn't work if you continue to blame
other people unfairly. Ask your local priest.

You might want to actually look at URLs before you click on them.
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257.
^^^^^^^
But you don't want any more advice from me, do you?

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257.
^^^^^^^
But you don't want any more advice from me, do you?

Nope.

And, as I said, I navigated from Google, so the URL I sent was originally
embedded in a link. I said fairly plainly that it wasn't an excuse but a
reason.

This is a friend's computer BTW hence the different username.

The kayak's gone, its replacement is on the way, but you still seem to be
here. There's the door.

Roger.

"Maria Teresa Chupacabra" wrote in
news:1128873819.6400fd394e268329017cac7a75936ab2@t eranews:


"Steve Cramer" wrote in message
...
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257
.
^^^^^^^
But you don't want any more advice from me, do you?

Nope.

And, as I said, I navigated from Google, so the URL I sent was
originally embedded in a link. I said fairly plainly that it wasn't an
excuse but a reason.

This is a friend's computer BTW hence the different username.

The kayak's gone, its replacement is on the way, but you still seem to
be here. There's the door.

First, what did you get to replace it?

Secondly, I've been reading this group for about 8 years and believe that
Steve has been here as long as I have or longer. Coming into a forum and
asking a long time regular to leave is not a very good way to gain favor
from him and other regulars. Now that you've got (or getting) a new kayak
you'll probably have a lot more questions regarding using it. I know that
at least I would be more likely to spend time providing answers if I thought
they'd be met with a bit more congenialtiy.

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .

First, what did you get to replace it?

Another kayak.

Some of the long-time regulars on here will agree with my choice, others
will not. More to the point, I found a shop I hadn't visited for quite some
time. Good guy, I'd bought climbing and camping gear off him. It suddenly
dawned on me that (duhhhh.....) they sell KAYAKS there too. Off to the
shop, another mea culpa or three for having overlooked them in my quest for
a kayak, and now I'm all set. Shop has a better customer, I have a real
knowledgeable salesman / mentor who actually cares whether the thing works
for us or not, and will stand behind the thing and do everything in his
power to make it work. He will also sell the highly coveted Animas for what
I paid for it at the (now defunct) other shop, and he'll sell it to someone
who knows what it is and how to use it, who has a roofrack to transport it
the many miles to waters where it's the right boat for the job.

Secondly, I've been reading this group for about 8 years and believe that
Steve has been here as long as I have or longer. Coming into a forum and
asking a long time regular to leave is not a very good way to gain favor
from him and other regulars.

You're at least partially right. I (Roger here again, not using Maria
Teresa's computer today) should have said something different. Of course
nobody can get kicked off of UseNet, right? So my response to him was
hyperbolic. Unlike this most recent spanking you've just administered, my
summary execution and expulsion of Steve was quite improper and unjustified.
I'm sorry I know neither the ritual nor the incantations to gain favor from
the in crowd. But thanks to you guys, I now know that WW doesn't just stand
for "wrong way".

I should have made a different observation, though, instead of kicking Steve
off the internet. The horse was dead when Steve rode up. Now, it's a
large, unpleasant oily blot on the shoulder of the road, and as recently as
a day ago, Steve was still obsessively beating it. That's what I SHOULDA
said. He can come back anytime and stay as long as he wants, and beat that
poor old horse-stain as long as he pleases. I don't care.

Now that you've got (or getting) a new kayak
you'll probably have a lot more questions regarding using it.

Yes, I will. And I won't ask guys named Steve who spend their valuable time
finding brand new and creative ways to repetitively tell me I stuffed up. I
knew it when he rode up. Shee-yit, it was me killed the damn horse in the
first place, remember?

I know that
at least I would be more likely to spend time providing answers if I
thought
they'd be met with a bit more congenialtiy.

Rightly so. But I don't know you, and you don't know me, and free advice
(as I recently re-learned to my embarrassment, once in real life and
repeatedly on R.B.P) is usually worth what you pay for it. If you run a
shop, and I stop in, I will ask you questions. The difference between that
and my Animas "experience" will be that I will assess your credibility as a
knowledgeable kayak guy before I once again plunk down my hard-earned. I
will assess you as a businessman the old fashioned way, not as a "long-time
regular" on some electronic discussion group where the veracity of Dirty
Harry's observation about opinions and orifices is so frequently borne out.
AS often, I hasten to add, as is the old saw about speaking up. as I did,
and removing all doubt.

My new/old kayak guy runs a business and his advice is worth my money. I
don't know that about you, or about Steve. I will run my own business doing
what I'm good at and successful at, and my kayak guy will run his. You guys
are entertaining to read, but you're a bit clannish and at least some of you
have a tendency to haze newcomers. My thanks to those who don't.

"Roger Houston" wrote in
:


"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .

First, what did you get to replace it?

Another kayak.

I know that. I was just curious as to what brand/model you replaced it
with.

Some of the long-time regulars on here will agree with my choice,
others will not.

You could replace the words "my choice" in the above sentence with just
about any topic and you'd pretty much be right.

More to the point, I found a shop I hadn't visited
for quite some time. Good guy, I'd bought climbing and camping gear
off him. It suddenly dawned on me that (duhhhh.....) they sell KAYAKS
there too. Off to the shop, another mea culpa or three for having
overlooked them in my quest for a kayak, and now I'm all set. Shop has
a better customer, I have a real knowledgeable salesman / mentor who
actually cares whether the thing works for us or not, and will stand
behind the thing and do everything in his power to make it work. He
will also sell the highly coveted Animas for what I paid for it at the
(now defunct) other shop, and he'll sell it to someone who knows what
it is and how to use it, who has a roofrack to transport it the many
miles to waters where it's the right boat for the job.

Sounds like you found a good shop to work with. It sounds quite a bit like
the shop a friend of mine owns.


Secondly, I've been reading this group for about 8 years and believe
that Steve has been here as long as I have or longer. Coming into a
forum and asking a long time regular to leave is not a very good way
to gain favor from him and other regulars.

You're at least partially right. I (Roger here again, not using Maria
Teresa's computer today) should have said something different. Of
course nobody can get kicked off of UseNet, right? So my response to
him was hyperbolic. Unlike this most recent spanking you've just
administered, my summary execution and expulsion of Steve was quite
improper and unjustified. I'm sorry I know neither the ritual nor the
incantations to gain favor from the in crowd.

There are not rituals or incantations. From my 20+ years experience with
Usenet I've found that generally getting testy if the answers to your
questions don't exactly meet your expectations is likely going to provide
equally testy responses.

I should have made a different observation, though, instead of kicking
Steve off the internet. The horse was dead when Steve rode up. Now,
it's a large, unpleasant oily blot on the shoulder of the road, and as
recently as a day ago, Steve was still obsessively beating it. That's
what I SHOULDA said. He can come back anytime and stay as long as he
wants, and beat that poor old horse-stain as long as he pleases. I
don't care.

It sounds like your biggest beef about it is that more than one person
responded with essentially the same information (that the Animas *is*
actually a WW boat). That's just the way Usenet works. Those that read and
respond don't always check to see if a question has already been answered,
and even when they do, might reword a response. Sometimes it looks like a
pile-on a dead horse but you *do* have the option of just ignoring a post
that appears to be directed to you if you feel you've sufficiently addressed
an issue.

Now that you've got (or getting) a new kayak you'll probably have a
lot more questions regarding using it.

Yes, I will. And I won't ask guys named Steve who spend their valuable
time finding brand new and creative ways to repetitively tell me I
stuffed up.

I doubt that was intent and it's unfortunate that you'll categorically
exclude "guys named Steve" based on one incident as there are several guys
named Steve here that can provide a lot of useful information.

I know that
at least I would be more likely to spend time providing answers if I
thought they'd be met with a bit more congenialtiy.

Rightly so. But I don't know you, and you don't know me, and free
advice (as I recently re-learned to my embarrassment, once in real life
and repeatedly on R.B.P) is usually worth what you pay for it.

Stick around this group long enough and you'll discover that among those
providing free advice include instructors and shop owners with decades of
experience, kayak designers, kayak company reps and founders, book and trade
magazine article authors (including yours truely), and plenty of just plain
good people with years and years of paddling experience.


If you
run a shop, and I stop in, I will ask you questions. The difference
between that and my Animas "experience" will be that I will assess your
credibility as a knowledgeable kayak guy before I once again plunk down
my hard-earned. I will assess you as a businessman the old fashioned
way, not as a "long-time regular" on some electronic discussion group
where the veracity of Dirty Harry's observation about opinions and
orifices is so frequently borne out. AS often, I hasten to add, as is
the old saw about speaking up. as I did, and removing all doubt.

I'm not sure how running a shop correlates with knowledge and advice about
kayak models. If anything, someone that *doesn't* own a shop is more likely
going to be less biased regarding a recommendation. It's entirely possible
that the original shop owner for the Animus was more interested in unloading
some stock than provided the right kayak for the job. I also know of quite a
few shops where the proprietors are businessmen first and paddlers (assuming
they even paddle) second.


My new/old kayak guy runs a business and his advice is worth my money.
I don't know that about you, or about Steve.

I know that if you had posted *before* you bought the Animus it would have
been pretty clear consensus in the responses as to whether it was a good
match for you. Specificially, I would have suggested that there are very
few kayaks that are designed as "beginners" kayaks (though many are marketed
that way) and that the more important criteria is how well a model suits the
type of water you're likely going to be paddling. I've also discovered that
for many, until you start paddling a variety of types of water it's
difficult to know what kinds of paddling you prefer. That makes choosing a
first boat (and recommending one) rather difficult.

I will run my own
business doing what I'm good at and successful at, and my kayak guy
will run his. You guys are entertaining to read, but you're a bit
clannish and at least some of you have a tendency to haze newcomers.

I suppose when a group of people participate in a social forum for a long
period of time they get to know each other and can seem clanish but in my
experience any hazing to newcomers is almost always in response to a
newcomer becoming belligerant when their question are not being answered to
their satisfaction.

My thanks to those who don't.

"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .

I know that if you had posted *before* you bought the Animus it would have
been pretty clear consensus in the responses as to whether it was a good
match for you.

Indeed. I think I alluded to that at one point. Too soon old, too late
smart.

Specificially, I would have suggested that there are very
few kayaks that are designed as "beginners" kayaks (though many are
marketed
that way) and that the more important criteria is how well a model suits
the
type of water you're likely going to be paddling.

Now, this raises another point -- and one that at least in part contributed
to my misinterpretation of the characterization of the first boat as a
"beginner's" boat.

I've been in whitewater on a raft, and the prospect of being on it in a solo
kayak seemed to me to be somewhat daunting. Would you expose a "raw"
kayaking beginner to whitewater? I personally wouldn't -- I'd want the
individual to have had at least some experience paddling, turning, rolling,
bracing, getting a feel for tipping so that the counterintuitive response to
a broach on a rock would be less counterintuitive, etc.

That's yet another reason I was somewhat incredulous that the "Sit And Spin"
was a "beginner's" boat. A beginning whitewater paddlers, boat -- yeah,
probably, as you guys have pointed out. A beginner's kayak, period? Heck,
no.

But I define whitewater as a non-beginner's environment. That may be an
incorrect assessment, but it's my semi-informed impression about water and
beginners. I taught fla****er canoeing to the Boy Scouts to include all the
Merit Badge requirements and then some -- more stuff about cold water
survival and so on as befits our climate. And it was with the Scouts that I
enjoyed my first-hand experience with whitewater. I wasn't able to go along
to the Boundary Waters with them -- work and all that -- but by all accounts
they handled themselves well on the water after our sessions.

And your comments about shop owners as experts is well-taken. My guy is
knowledgeable, and has paddled extensively and taught. So no problem
there -- except for the flat spot on the front of my forehead from smacking
myself over having overlooked him as a good source of information and a
boat. In general, perhaps the most expert would be the very antithesis of
shop-owning businessmen -- the scrufty bum who can barely scrape together
enough change for rent because he lives in his boat on the water might be
the best source of information about some things aquatic.

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I'll look for your byline in the magazines
I'm grabbing right and left, because I'm busy reading everything I can get
my hands on about kayaks -- recreational and sea kayaks appeal to me. I've
got a good stack of Winter reading.

On 11-Oct-2005, "Roger Houston" wrote:

Would you expose a "raw" kayaking beginner to whitewater?

You have to get into the whitewater at some point to not be a beginner.
You start with class 1 and work your way up. Instructors will start
with fla****er and teach wet exits and basic rescue, but rolling is
not taught up front. One very well respected kayak school teaches
rolling on day three of a week-long course - and then only an
introduction. It will take the student a lot longer to develop a roll
that will be useful in WW. But that same student will be introduced
to class 3 by the end of that same week.

Students are not on their own (unless they learn KMAN's way), so they
are not at exceptional risk. They also learn very quickly to appreciate
the handling characteristics of a kayak like the Animas. Learning to
keep it going in a straight line is also learned quickly enough.

Mike

Roger Houston wrote:

Now, this raises another point -- and one that at least in part contributed
to my misinterpretation of the characterization of the first boat as a
"beginner's" boat.

I've been in whitewater on a raft, and the prospect of being on it in a solo
kayak seemed to me to be somewhat daunting. Would you expose a "raw"
kayaking beginner to whitewater? I personally wouldn't -- I'd want the
individual to have had at least some experience paddling, turning, rolling,
bracing, getting a feel for tipping so that the counterintuitive response to
a broach on a rock would be less counterintuitive, etc.

How raw is raw? In the 10+ years I've been teaching WW canoe and kayak,
I put beginners on Class I-II (well, there's a II++ at the end of one
river) after 5 or 6 hours of fla****er instruction. I also put touring
boaters in the surf on day 2. They generally do fine. Most of them can't
roll at the time of their first river trip, but that doesn't dempen
their enthusiasm any.

That's yet another reason I was somewhat incredulous that the "Sit And Spin"
was a "beginner's" boat. A beginning whitewater paddlers, boat -- yeah,
probably, as you guys have pointed out. A beginner's kayak, period? Heck,
no.

We've had discussions about the concept of "beginner's boats" here in
the past. A lot of what pass for beginner boats are really dead end
boats (I don't mean this in a disparaging way. Some of my friends have
happily put a lot of miles on Pungos). But many boats sold as beginner
boats are designed to get you on the water with the minimum investment
of $ and learning time. Nothing wrong with that if you just want
something to keep at the lake house for guests to dink around with, but
these types of boats do not lead to increased mastery of the skill of
paddling. They tend to be too stable, among other things, so that you
can't learn to edge into turns. You can't roll them, and you certainly
can't learn to roll in them. They are not suited for anything but very
sheltered water.

So if you want to paddle WW, it's better to start in a real WW boat,
although probably not the latest and greatest (and smallest) playboat.
Someting more like, dare I say, an Animas. On the other hand, if you're
serious about touring, you probably need a touring boat narrower than
25" and longer than 14'. Ideally, one boat could do it all, but it
can't, any more than one bicycle or car can take you from dirt to
asphalt. So it's necessary to try a few things out to see whether you
want to put the effort into learning them. Maybe a little frustrating at
first, but it can pay off later.


--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA