Yeah, the Animas is an old school 10+feet? boat, a good one for sure for
bigger water, but a WW boat for sure. WW boats are made to "spin" on a dime.
She\you will have no problem "tracking" it once you develop a good stroke.
ANY boat tracks if you know what yer doin'.
"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 6-Oct-2005, "Roger Houston" wrote:

The guy at the counter of the
store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for
whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in
between.

Don't listen to that guy again. The Animas is a WW kayak. It may not
be the latest and greatest playboat, but it was a popular kayak at one
time.

The boat just spins on its center of rotation and
is very difficult to control as to direction of travel.

That sounds about right for a WW kayak. They are designed to handle in
rough water and will change directions fast. The price you pay is that
you have to learn how to control it. Every WW kayak will spin out of
control when paddled on fla****er unless you learn to correct the
motion with pretty much every other stroke. Tell your friend that she
will have to spend a lot of time in the kayak to get used to it.
If you switch it for a kayak that will track well, that will be a
kayak that is difficult to use in WW.

If she didn't want to do WW, then definitely get a different kayak.
WW kayaks are for WW.

Mike

Roger Houston wrote:

I persuaded my friend to buy a used Dagger Animas as a first boat. I had
read reviews that it was a great first boat. The guy at the counter of the
store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for
whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in between.

The guy at the store doesn't quite know what he's talking about. The
Dagger Piedra is the Animas scaled down for smaller people; everything
I shall say about the Piedra with my 150# & 120# friends applies to the
Animas with a heavier paddler. My friends Jon and Karen love the
Piedra for (up to) Class IV/V whitewater in both the Rockies and the
Appalachians. The Piedras were not their first boats, nor are they
their only whitewater boats (they have Micro-235s for steep creekin')
but if they had to keep just one boat each I believe they would keep
the Piedras because the Piedras are so stable and predictable in
turbulent whitewater yet versatile enough for all but the gnarliest
creeks -- which is why the reviews called the Animas a good first boat.
[Don't don't seize upon the weight/size issue; at yer friend's level
of boating it is NOT an issue; at her experience level, on flat moving
water, the Animas and the Piedra might as well be interchangable.]

We took it out today where a river feeds into a lake, still a bit of
current, and some wind. The boat just spins on its center of rotation and
is very difficult to control as to direction of travel. She'd be paddling
(an experienced canoeist new to kayaks), and it would yaw right and left,
and when she finally got going it would suddenly switch ends, doing an
uncommanded 180 degree turn. It caused her no end of frustration, and in
the end, I had to tow her back to where we put in. The boat at the end of a
toe line was as undisciplined as had been the case when paddled freely,
yawing and yanking at the tow line.

Though the salesman was not right about the Animas being unsuitable for
whitewater, and though he should have broadened the "sea-kayaking"
category to "touring" (to include lake and flat-river paddling) He was
right about it being a good boat for swif****er paddling, and if he is
a young hot-dog whitewater boater he probably included everything up to
Class III whitewater in the "in between" category.

If she is experienced in tripping canoes, the Animas would
understandably have been a problem for her. If she had been
experienced in whitewater canoes she should have had no trouble (I have
to consciously keep my whitewater canoe on track when I'm on flat
stretches, and my canoe will spin out just like her kayak if I stop
paddling and don't keep the blade in the water for control). Jon &
Karen have no trouble paddling their Piedras across the lakes we
encounter at the bottoms of some whitewater runs, because J&K have
cleared the learning curve.

I must say I am disappointed, and the beginner is discouraged. I've got to
find her another used boat.

Absolutely, if she is looking for a fla****er touring boat. Absolutely
not if she wants to become a whitewater boater; if she wants to become
a whitewater boater she needs to learn how to make it go straight when
she needs to go straight, and how to take advantage of its high
maneuverability when she needs to maneuver in variable currents. But
you would know all this if you were a whitewater boater, and I am
guessing she wants to learn the kind of boating you do, so you are
probably right: you probably need to find her another boat. A Dagger
Blackwater, perhaps: 10.5' long (if I remember correctly) with a slight
keel or skeg to help it track.

For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed at
all, vs being put together to look cool?

Please don't insult the boat because you received less than perfect
advice from the salesman. The Animas and the Piedra were never cool;
they were always workhorse kayaks for the less-extreme whitewater
boater, but Jon & Karen lovvvvvvvve the predictable performance of the
Animas' little-brother boat.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--
================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. Winston-Salem, NC, USA
.. . . Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll . . ..
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net . . . . . . . . . .. cell: (301) 775-0471
.. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters ..
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu . . . . . . . . . . . office: (336) 713-5077
================================================== ====================

"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message
oups.com...

For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed at
all, vs being put together to look cool?

Please don't insult the boat because you received less than perfect
advice from the salesman.

Yeah, that was harsh. I guess the motive power for the boat is in the
current, and the paddle inputs are for directional control. At any rate,
both the salesman and on online review I consulted prior to making the
recommendation were seriously in error.

I am more optimistic now that we can get her money or most of it out of the
Animas by selling it to someone for whom it is better suited, or trading it
in on a boat more suitable to fla****er touring which I guess is the other
name for paddling up and down the river and through its impoundments
watching the trees change colors.

Thanks.

Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to name
just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should
help you with your choices.

Courtney

"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...

"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message
oups.com...

For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed
at
all, vs being put together to look cool?

Please don't insult the boat because you received less than perfect
advice from the salesman.

Yeah, that was harsh. I guess the motive power for the boat is in the
current, and the paddle inputs are for directional control. At any rate,
both the salesman and on online review I consulted prior to making the
recommendation were seriously in error.

I am more optimistic now that we can get her money or most of it out of
the
Animas by selling it to someone for whom it is better suited, or trading
it
in on a boat more suitable to fla****er touring which I guess is the other
name for paddling up and down the river and through its impoundments
watching the trees change colors.

Thanks.

"Courtney" wrote in message
ink.net...
Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to
name
just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should
help you with your choices.

As I mentioned in another post, I won't check out Dagger's site as a source
of primary information. Not knowing anything else about the boat, what is
written on their site at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257
would lead one to believe that the boat tracks and is predictable for
beginners, neither of which proved to be the case with the boat in question.

I think I'll ask on here; the ng seems to have been a source of pretty
reliable information in other respects.

Roger Houston wrote:
"Courtney" wrote in message
ink.net...

Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to
name
just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should
help you with your choices.

As I mentioned in another post, I won't check out Dagger's site as a source
of primary information. Not knowing anything else about the boat, what is
written on their site at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257
would lead one to believe that the boat tracks and is predictable for
beginners, neither of which proved to be the case with the boat in question.

I think I'll ask on here; the ng seems to have been a source of pretty
reliable information in other respects.

The fact that Dagger's site lists it among the whitewater kayaks didn't
suggest anything to you? As whitewater boats go, it's stable and
predictable. NO WW boat tracks well on fla****er, they are designed to
turn, not track.

I can understand that you and your friend are upset, but it's the
salesman's fault for misleading you, not Dagger's

--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

The statement that's on Dagger's web site for the Animas is for whitewater
boats and the statement is correct. It is a beginner whitewater boat and
tracks straighter than many other whitewater boats, etc.... If they had
used that description for recreational boats however it would have been a
false statement. Look under the "recreational" descriptions on the company
web pages, not "whitewater". You can even look under "sea kayaks" and get
something that is a beginner sea kayak. It will generally be shorter and
wider that the average sea kayak. It's kind of a hybrid between rec and
sea. If you have any questions about some boats that you're see just write
us and we'll give you feedback on them.

Courtney

"Roger Houston" wrote in message
et...

"Courtney" wrote in message
ink.net...
Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to
name
just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should
help you with your choices.

As I mentioned in another post, I won't check out Dagger's site as a
source
of primary information. Not knowing anything else about the boat, what is
written on their site at
http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257
would lead one to believe that the boat tracks and is predictable for
beginners, neither of which proved to be the case with the boat in
question.

I think I'll ask on here; the ng seems to have been a source of pretty
reliable information in other respects.

It was designed as a whitewater boat and was popular about 10 or 11 years
ago. It's definitely not a flat water boat. I would call the person back
that you bought it from and have a few words with him. If he's decent he
should take the boat back and sell you a recreational boat. If you're not
sure about the boats they have but are interested in a few there, just write
us back here and we'll give you input.

Courtney

"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...
I persuaded my friend to buy a used Dagger Animas as a first boat. I had
read reviews that it was a great first boat. The guy at the counter of
the
store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for
whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in between.

We took it out today where a river feeds into a lake, still a bit of
current, and some wind. The boat just spins on its center of rotation and
is very difficult to control as to direction of travel. She'd be paddling
(an experienced canoeist new to kayaks), and it would yaw right and left,
and when she finally got going it would suddenly switch ends, doing an
uncommanded 180 degree turn. It caused her no end of frustration, and in
the end, I had to tow her back to where we put in. The boat at the end of
a
toe line was as undisciplined as had been the case when paddled freely,
yawing and yanking at the tow line.

I must say I am disappointed, and the beginner is discouraged. I've got
to
find her another used boat.

For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed at
all, vs being put together to look cool?

Courtney wrote:
It was designed as a whitewater boat and was popular about 10 or 11 years
ago.


10 or 11 years? Seems like lots longer than that; how time flies! The
manufacturers' rush to crank out new models telescopes my sense of
time. There have been sooooooo many models produced since then that it
seems it should be decades since the Animas came out.

But when I stop to think of it, the RPM was debut'd by EJ at the '93
Worlds rodeo competion (gold medal; yay EJ!) and on the market in
plastic in '94, followed shortly by two de-tuned versions as entry
level boats: the Animas and the Piedra.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================

Yes I know, it does seem like forever since the Animus first came to market.
I remember when doing enders and pirouettes in "Hell Hole" on the Ocoee was
the big thing in the rodeo. WOW! How time flies.

Courtney

"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message
oups.com...
Courtney wrote:
It was designed as a whitewater boat and was popular about 10 or 11
years
ago.


10 or 11 years? Seems like lots longer than that; how time flies! The
manufacturers' rush to crank out new models telescopes my sense of
time. There have been sooooooo many models produced since then that it
seems it should be decades since the Animas came out.

But when I stop to think of it, the RPM was debut'd by EJ at the '93
Worlds rodeo competion (gold medal; yay EJ!) and on the market in
plastic in '94, followed shortly by two de-tuned versions as entry
level boats: the Animas and the Piedra.


-Richard, His Kanubic Travesty
--

================================================== ====================
Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA
rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net
Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll
rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu
OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters
================================================== ====================