"John Fereira" wrote in message
.. .

I know that if you had posted *before* you bought the Animus it would have
been pretty clear consensus in the responses as to whether it was a good
match for you.

Indeed. I think I alluded to that at one point. Too soon old, too late
smart.

Specificially, I would have suggested that there are very
few kayaks that are designed as "beginners" kayaks (though many are
marketed
that way) and that the more important criteria is how well a model suits
the
type of water you're likely going to be paddling.

Now, this raises another point -- and one that at least in part contributed
to my misinterpretation of the characterization of the first boat as a
"beginner's" boat.

I've been in whitewater on a raft, and the prospect of being on it in a solo
kayak seemed to me to be somewhat daunting. Would you expose a "raw"
kayaking beginner to whitewater? I personally wouldn't -- I'd want the
individual to have had at least some experience paddling, turning, rolling,
bracing, getting a feel for tipping so that the counterintuitive response to
a broach on a rock would be less counterintuitive, etc.

That's yet another reason I was somewhat incredulous that the "Sit And Spin"
was a "beginner's" boat. A beginning whitewater paddlers, boat -- yeah,
probably, as you guys have pointed out. A beginner's kayak, period? Heck,
no.

But I define whitewater as a non-beginner's environment. That may be an
incorrect assessment, but it's my semi-informed impression about water and
beginners. I taught fla****er canoeing to the Boy Scouts to include all the
Merit Badge requirements and then some -- more stuff about cold water
survival and so on as befits our climate. And it was with the Scouts that I
enjoyed my first-hand experience with whitewater. I wasn't able to go along
to the Boundary Waters with them -- work and all that -- but by all accounts
they handled themselves well on the water after our sessions.

And your comments about shop owners as experts is well-taken. My guy is
knowledgeable, and has paddled extensively and taught. So no problem
there -- except for the flat spot on the front of my forehead from smacking
myself over having overlooked him as a good source of information and a
boat. In general, perhaps the most expert would be the very antithesis of
shop-owning businessmen -- the scrufty bum who can barely scrape together
enough change for rent because he lives in his boat on the water might be
the best source of information about some things aquatic.

Thanks for the thoughtful post. I'll look for your byline in the magazines
I'm grabbing right and left, because I'm busy reading everything I can get
my hands on about kayaks -- recreational and sea kayaks appeal to me. I've
got a good stack of Winter reading.

On 11-Oct-2005, "Roger Houston" wrote:

Would you expose a "raw" kayaking beginner to whitewater?

You have to get into the whitewater at some point to not be a beginner.
You start with class 1 and work your way up. Instructors will start
with fla****er and teach wet exits and basic rescue, but rolling is
not taught up front. One very well respected kayak school teaches
rolling on day three of a week-long course - and then only an
introduction. It will take the student a lot longer to develop a roll
that will be useful in WW. But that same student will be introduced
to class 3 by the end of that same week.

Students are not on their own (unless they learn KMAN's way), so they
are not at exceptional risk. They also learn very quickly to appreciate
the handling characteristics of a kayak like the Animas. Learning to
keep it going in a straight line is also learned quickly enough.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 11-Oct-2005, "Roger Houston" wrote:

Would you expose a "raw" kayaking beginner to whitewater?

You have to get into the whitewater at some point to not be a beginner.
You start with class 1 and work your way up. Instructors will start
with fla****er and teach wet exits and basic rescue, but rolling is
not taught up front. One very well respected kayak school teaches
rolling on day three of a week-long course - and then only an
introduction. It will take the student a lot longer to develop a roll
that will be useful in WW. But that same student will be introduced
to class 3 by the end of that same week.

Students are not on their own (unless they learn KMAN's way), so they
are not at exceptional risk. They also learn very quickly to appreciate
the handling characteristics of a kayak like the Animas. Learning to
keep it going in a straight line is also learned quickly enough.

Mike

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught
kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If
so, I'd like to see it. Thanks.

On 12-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught
kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If
so, I'd like to see it.

A rank beginner that is self-taught in whitewater will quickly be swimming.
The same paddler with a professional or competent non-professional instructor
will be rescued and guided thru all steps of WW paddling. Swimming in WW is
dangerous. Most of us know that - you don't.

Mike

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 12-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of
self-taught
kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If
so, I'd like to see it.

A rank beginner that is self-taught in whitewater will quickly be
swimming.

Not if they start in an appropriate beginner environment.

The same paddler with a professional or competent non-professional
instructor
will be rescued and guided thru all steps of WW paddling. Swimming in WW
is
dangerous. Most of us know that - you don't.

Mike

Your statement lacks foundation and is totally false. Also rather snotty,
but then, this is Michael Daly after all!

I repeat:

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught
kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If
so, I'd like to see it.

If you like, I can send you stories of various professionally trained
kayakers who have been injured or perished. This is not to say that
professional instruction has no value. But it is to say that thus far you
have done nothing to demonstrate the superior nature of professional
instruction to self-teaching.

On 12-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

Not if they start in an appropriate beginner environment.

And exactly what is that environment? Can you prove that it
is safer than any other?


Your statement lacks foundation and is totally false.

If so, you should be able to prove that.

I can send you stories of various professionally trained
kayakers who have been injured or perished.

Which only proves that you know some stories.


Mike

in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 10/12/05 5:17 PM:


On 12-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

Not if they start in an appropriate beginner environment.

And exactly what is that environment? Can you prove that it
is safer than any other?

Uh. Prove that it is safer...well, I'd say a sheltered bay with a sandy
bottom is safer than Niagara Falls. Or do I need to prove that to you?

Your statement lacks foundation and is totally false.

If so, you should be able to prove that.

You accused me of not understanding that swimming in whitewater is
dangerous. You have no foundation for the statement, and as the person being
accused, I am telling you it is false. Had you asked me if I thought
swimming in WW was dangerous, I would have of course answered in the
affirmative. As you went ahead and told me what I think (incorrectly) I
pointed out that your statement lacked foundation and is false. Which it is,
unless you can somehow prove that I think other than what I am stating as my
actual position on the issue.

I can send you stories of various professionally trained
kayakers who have been injured or perished.

Which only proves that you know some stories.

Mike

No, they will not be my stories. They will be objective third party news
articles. Let me know if you really need to see them.

Roger Houston wrote:

Now, this raises another point -- and one that at least in part contributed
to my misinterpretation of the characterization of the first boat as a
"beginner's" boat.

I've been in whitewater on a raft, and the prospect of being on it in a solo
kayak seemed to me to be somewhat daunting. Would you expose a "raw"
kayaking beginner to whitewater? I personally wouldn't -- I'd want the
individual to have had at least some experience paddling, turning, rolling,
bracing, getting a feel for tipping so that the counterintuitive response to
a broach on a rock would be less counterintuitive, etc.

How raw is raw? In the 10+ years I've been teaching WW canoe and kayak,
I put beginners on Class I-II (well, there's a II++ at the end of one
river) after 5 or 6 hours of fla****er instruction. I also put touring
boaters in the surf on day 2. They generally do fine. Most of them can't
roll at the time of their first river trip, but that doesn't dempen
their enthusiasm any.

That's yet another reason I was somewhat incredulous that the "Sit And Spin"
was a "beginner's" boat. A beginning whitewater paddlers, boat -- yeah,
probably, as you guys have pointed out. A beginner's kayak, period? Heck,
no.

We've had discussions about the concept of "beginner's boats" here in
the past. A lot of what pass for beginner boats are really dead end
boats (I don't mean this in a disparaging way. Some of my friends have
happily put a lot of miles on Pungos). But many boats sold as beginner
boats are designed to get you on the water with the minimum investment
of $ and learning time. Nothing wrong with that if you just want
something to keep at the lake house for guests to dink around with, but
these types of boats do not lead to increased mastery of the skill of
paddling. They tend to be too stable, among other things, so that you
can't learn to edge into turns. You can't roll them, and you certainly
can't learn to roll in them. They are not suited for anything but very
sheltered water.

So if you want to paddle WW, it's better to start in a real WW boat,
although probably not the latest and greatest (and smallest) playboat.
Someting more like, dare I say, an Animas. On the other hand, if you're
serious about touring, you probably need a touring boat narrower than
25" and longer than 14'. Ideally, one boat could do it all, but it
can't, any more than one bicycle or car can take you from dirt to
asphalt. So it's necessary to try a few things out to see whether you
want to put the effort into learning them. Maybe a little frustrating at
first, but it can pay off later.


--
Steve Cramer
Athens, GA

in article , Steve Cramer at
wrote on 10/12/05 10:07 PM:

Roger Houston wrote:

Now, this raises another point -- and one that at least in part contributed
to my misinterpretation of the characterization of the first boat as a
"beginner's" boat.

I've been in whitewater on a raft, and the prospect of being on it in a solo
kayak seemed to me to be somewhat daunting. Would you expose a "raw"
kayaking beginner to whitewater? I personally wouldn't -- I'd want the
individual to have had at least some experience paddling, turning, rolling,
bracing, getting a feel for tipping so that the counterintuitive response to
a broach on a rock would be less counterintuitive, etc.

How raw is raw? In the 10+ years I've been teaching WW canoe and kayak,
I put beginners on Class I-II (well, there's a II++ at the end of one
river) after 5 or 6 hours of fla****er instruction. I also put touring
boaters in the surf on day 2. They generally do fine. Most of them can't
roll at the time of their first river trip, but that doesn't dempen
their enthusiasm any.

That's yet another reason I was somewhat incredulous that the "Sit And Spin"
was a "beginner's" boat. A beginning whitewater paddlers, boat -- yeah,
probably, as you guys have pointed out. A beginner's kayak, period? Heck,
no.

We've had discussions about the concept of "beginner's boats" here in
the past. A lot of what pass for beginner boats are really dead end
boats (I don't mean this in a disparaging way. Some of my friends have
happily put a lot of miles on Pungos). But many boats sold as beginner
boats are designed to get you on the water with the minimum investment
of $ and learning time. Nothing wrong with that if you just want
something to keep at the lake house for guests to dink around with, but
these types of boats do not lead to increased mastery of the skill of
paddling. They tend to be too stable, among other things, so that you
can't learn to edge into turns. You can't roll them, and you certainly
can't learn to roll in them. They are not suited for anything but very
sheltered water.

So if you want to paddle WW, it's better to start in a real WW boat,
although probably not the latest and greatest (and smallest) playboat.
Someting more like, dare I say, an Animas. On the other hand, if you're
serious about touring, you probably need a touring boat narrower than
25" and longer than 14'. Ideally, one boat could do it all, but it
can't, any more than one bicycle or car can take you from dirt to
asphalt. So it's necessary to try a few things out to see whether you
want to put the effort into learning them. Maybe a little frustrating at
first, but it can pay off later.

Geez, a "professional" who doesn't sound like an asshole, and actually has
something valuable to share other than "the water is dangerous, don't go
there without me or you'll surely die."

Great comments and advice.

So, just so I understand...you start the learners out in flat water, and
then I/II (where they may will end up swimmming) and then they move to more
tricky areas as there abilities increase. Sounds good. Sounds also like what
someone learning on their own might do.

What say you Michael? Is Roger an out of control wild man with this
approach?