On 12-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

Not if they start in an appropriate beginner environment.

And exactly what is that environment? Can you prove that it
is safer than any other?


Your statement lacks foundation and is totally false.

If so, you should be able to prove that.

I can send you stories of various professionally trained
kayakers who have been injured or perished.

Which only proves that you know some stories.


Mike

in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 10/12/05 5:17 PM:


On 12-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

Not if they start in an appropriate beginner environment.

And exactly what is that environment? Can you prove that it
is safer than any other?

Uh. Prove that it is safer...well, I'd say a sheltered bay with a sandy
bottom is safer than Niagara Falls. Or do I need to prove that to you?

Your statement lacks foundation and is totally false.

If so, you should be able to prove that.

You accused me of not understanding that swimming in whitewater is
dangerous. You have no foundation for the statement, and as the person being
accused, I am telling you it is false. Had you asked me if I thought
swimming in WW was dangerous, I would have of course answered in the
affirmative. As you went ahead and told me what I think (incorrectly) I
pointed out that your statement lacked foundation and is false. Which it is,
unless you can somehow prove that I think other than what I am stating as my
actual position on the issue.

I can send you stories of various professionally trained
kayakers who have been injured or perished.

Which only proves that you know some stories.

Mike

No, they will not be my stories. They will be objective third party news
articles. Let me know if you really need to see them.

On 12-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote:


And exactly what is that environment? Can you prove that it
is safer than any other?

Uh. Prove that it is safer...well, I'd say a sheltered bay with a sandy
bottom is safer than Niagara Falls.

What is it you are saying that is different than what I already said the
pros do?

You accused me of not understanding that swimming in whitewater is
dangerous.

No, I'm pointing out that you are ignoring that issue and assuming
that a rank amateur with no instruction will be able to magically
acquire the skills to handle WW on his own. No competent WW instructor,
professional or otherwise, would suggest that a paddler learn WW on
his own. WW is a dangerous environment and requires paddlers to learn
how to handle the conditions and work together on the water. With
an instructor, the student has an experienced person standing by.
With the solo learner, there's no support.


They will be objective third party news articles.

Which still proves nothing in support of your arguments.

Mike

in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 10/13/05 1:55 AM:


On 12-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote:


And exactly what is that environment? Can you prove that it
is safer than any other?

Uh. Prove that it is safer...well, I'd say a sheltered bay with a sandy
bottom is safer than Niagara Falls.

What is it you are saying that is different than what I already said the
pros do?

Why are you moving away from the question that was posed? Is that the
Michael Daly way of saying "You are right of course, I apologize. Now here's
something else I'd like to ask you about?"

In any event, I think you'll find I answer this question below.

You accused me of not understanding that swimming in whitewater is
dangerous.

No, I'm pointing out that you are ignoring that issue and assuming
that a rank amateur with no instruction will be able to magically
acquire the skills to handle WW on his own.

And, yet again, there is no foundation for this statement, and it is quite
false. It's not magic at all. A self-taught paddler (as you seem to
understand from your question above) would indeed follow a similar path as
they would be led down by an instructor. This really isn't rocket science.
You experiment, make observations, make adjustuments, and repeat. You start
in fla****er, move to I/II, and move to increasingly challenging
environments as you improve. I wouldn't recommend learning WW alone, but
that doesn't mean you have to have a professional instructor in order to
learn and continue developing in a self-taught manner.

No competent WW instructor,
professional or otherwise, would suggest that a paddler learn WW on
his own.

I've met few people who make their living on professional instruction
recommending that people learn on their own for free instead. But it's a
rather silly all or nothing statement to suggest that not one competent
instructor would ever say this. I've spoken to some myself who are quite
honest in saying that they know many a fine self-taught WW paddler.

WW is a dangerous environment and requires paddlers to learn
how to handle the conditions and work together on the water.

Yes. Well, I've yet to meet any paddlers who refuse to work together with a
competent self-taught paddler.

With
an instructor, the student has an experienced person standing by.
With the solo learner, there's no support.

Now you've changed your emphasis completely. So it's about having an
experienced person standing by? Once again, you never asked me anything
about this. Had you simply said "Don't you think, in a challenging WW
environment, that it makes sense to have an experienced person standing by?"
I'd have replied in the affirmative.

The fact that high-risk activities are often best conducted with others has
nothing to do with the discussion at hand. We are talking about whether or
not it is possible to learn kayaking skills without professional
instruction. Try, for once, to stay on track. And when you find that your
logic fails, try, for once, simply admitting it instead of trying to
distract and dodge from the issue.

They will be objective third party news articles.

Which still proves nothing in support of your arguments.

Mike

Then I guess there's no point, and I guess you will never answer the
question. What a surprise!

Just to recap (and reminding you that I have answered all of your questions,
even the ones that were obvious dodges from questions you were attempting to
escape) the question to you was as follows:

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught
kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If
so, I'd like to see it.

On 13-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote:

Why are you moving away from the question that was posed?

The question posed was nonsense from KMAN. You keep avoiding the
issues surrounding your claims. I pointed out how the professionals
will instruct a new paddler in WW. You made a reference that ignored
what I had already stated. I'm just trying to get you to realize that
you can't seem to follow the discussion.


A self-taught paddler (as you seem to
understand from your question above) would indeed follow a similar path as
they would be led down by an instructor.

How would this self-taught paddler know what path to follow? How do you know
they won't just plunge into class 4 WW - after all, that's what they see on
TV.

I've spoken to some myself who are quite
honest in saying that they know many a fine self-taught WW paddler.

Name them - and these magical students.

I've taught many sports over the years and have yet to find these magically
skilled self-taught athletes. I've come across lots of folks who can do
a mediocre job of imitating the experts but need a lot of work to get good.
On rare occasions, I meet someone, usually an accomplished athlete in another
sport, who learns particularly well or quickly from watching others, but that;s
not the same as learning, as you say, " experiment, make observations, make
adjustuments[sic], and repeat".


So it's about having an
experienced person standing by? Once again, you never asked me anything
about this. Had you simply said "Don't you think, in a challenging WW
environment, that it makes sense to have an experienced person standing by?"
I'd have replied in the affirmative.

Which goes against your position that one learns adequately on one's own.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught
kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If
so, I'd like to see it.

Since it is you who espouses the non-standard view, perhaps you should be the
one offereing proof. You constantly insist that self-taught are safer and as
good as otherwise, but have never offered one iota of proof.

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

On 13-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote:

Why are you moving away from the question that was posed?

The question posed was nonsense from KMAN. You keep avoiding the
issues surrounding your claims. I pointed out how the professionals
will instruct a new paddler in WW. You made a reference that ignored
what I had already stated. I'm just trying to get you to realize that
you can't seem to follow the discussion.

Perhaps it would help if you would specify. You tend to reply by removing
any context and then making generalized whinings and complaints. I'm quite
certain that throughout this discussion I've been quite specific, and have
addressed your questions in a direct fashion.

A self-taught paddler (as you seem to
understand from your question above) would indeed follow a similar path
as
they would be led down by an instructor.

How would this self-taught paddler know what path to follow? How do you
know
they won't just plunge into class 4 WW - after all, that's what they see
on
TV.

If your point is that some people are stupid, point taken. As I've said, I
can point you to countless third-party verifiable tales of professionally
trained people who perish doing stupid things. It's possible there are
people who buy a WW kayak and go directly into class 4 and die. Can you
point me to some verifiable stories where this has happened? Is this common?
Or are you just making the point that someone who has done no learning and
goes into a set of class IV rapids would be in a lot of danger? If so, may I
say, once again, you need only ask me:

"Do you think it's a good idea for a new kayaker to plunge into class 4 WW?"
because, yet again, I would have replied in the affirmative.

My point - and a very different one - is that someone who wants to teach
themselves something - anything, including kayaking - can do so if they
understand just the basics of how things are learned. People do it every
day. You experiment, you observe, you progress, you experiment, you observe,
you progress.

I've spoken to some myself who are quite
honest in saying that they know many a fine self-taught WW paddler.

Name them - and these magical students.

Oddly enough, I don't think it's a good idea to give you the opportunity to
smear their names. I will however see if they are interested in coming into
this corner of the world and joining with me to tell you what an ass you
are, but that would be up to them, and I don't know if they are usenet
folks. But if you get tired of waiting I bet if you go a google on
"self-taught" and "kayaker" you can read for weeks.

I've taught many sports over the years and have yet to find these
magically
skilled self-taught athletes.

I've taught many sports over the years and have found many skilled
self-taught athletes. I've also met many pompous blowhards who think their
position as coach or teacher should require god-like reverance, because they
fail to understand their role is to facilitate the learning of the athlete,
not open their brain and pour in their own knowledge like Moses from on
high.

I've come across lots of folks who can do
a mediocre job of imitating the experts but need a lot of work to get
good.

I've come across many folks (like yourself) who consider themselves experts
but have impossibly warped understandings of the learning process. It's
interesting to see.

On rare occasions, I meet someone, usually an accomplished athlete in
another
sport, who learns particularly well or quickly from watching others, but
that;s
not the same as learning, as you say, " experiment, make observations,
make
adjustuments[sic], and repeat".

Too bad you don't understand or experience the world that way. I can't
imagine how boring and even frightening life must be if there is nothing you
think possible without an "expert" to guide you.

So it's about having an
experienced person standing by? Once again, you never asked me anything
about this. Had you simply said "Don't you think, in a challenging WW
environment, that it makes sense to have an experienced person standing
by?"
I'd have replied in the affirmative.

Which goes against your position that one learns adequately on one's own.

No, it doesn't in the least. I'm talking about learning without getting
professional instruction. I never said you should do everything alone. This
is not a debate about going solo. It's about learning - you seem to think
people can only learn with professional instruction. I strongly disagree.
People learn things all the time without professional instruction, and there
is nothing to say they cannot learn better using their own methods than a
professional instructor's methods. One need look no further than the last
time I clobbered the club tennis instructor. He still doesn't believe I
never had professional lessons. You'd probably get along well with him. I
beat him worse every time we play - because I experiment, observe, adjust,
progress...poor ******* can't figure out why he seems to be getting worse
every time we play.

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of
self-taught
kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If
so, I'd like to see it.

Since it is you who espouses the non-standard view, perhaps you should be
the
one offereing proof. You constantly insist that self-taught are safer and
as
good as otherwise, but have never offered one iota of proof.

So you are not going to answer the question?

I have never insisted or even implied that self-taught is safer. All I have
said is that it is entirely possible to learn to kayak well and safely
without a professional instructor. Do you disagree? If so:

Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught
kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If
so, I'd like to see it.

If you refuse to answer yet again, I think it would be fair to assume that
you don't have the evidence.

"KMAN" wrote in message
.. .

"Michael Daly" wrote in message
...

How would this self-taught paddler know what path to follow? How do you
know
they won't just plunge into class 4 WW - after all, that's what they see
on
TV.

If your point is that some people are stupid, point taken. As I've said, I
can point you to countless third-party verifiable tales of professionally
trained people who perish doing stupid things. It's possible there are
people who buy a WW kayak and go directly into class 4 and die. Can you
point me to some verifiable stories where this has happened? Is this
common? Or are you just making the point that someone who has done no
learning and goes into a set of class IV rapids would be in a lot of
danger? If so, may I say, once again, you need only ask me:

"Do you think it's a good idea for a new kayaker to plunge into class 4
WW?" because, yet again, I would have replied in the affirmative.

LOL. I mean:

"Don't you think it's a bad idea for a new kayaker to plunge into class 4
WW?" because, yet again, I would have replied in the affirmative.

On 13-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

It's about learning - you seem to think
people can only learn with professional instruction.

Please quote a single message from me where I have said anything
of the sort.

I can't
imagine how boring and even frightening life must be if there is nothing you
think possible without an "expert" to guide you.

Nothing boring or frightening about my life. I don't need an expert for
everything, but know the value of an expert when I need it. I know when
it's a waste of time to reinvent the wheel. I have never learned anything
in a vacuum and am honest enough to admit it. I learn from others - just
as you do but can't seem to admit.

All I have
said is that it is entirely possible to learn to kayak well and safely
without a professional instructor. Do you disagree?

Possible - yes. It is entirely possible to learn the same from a non-
professional instructor. I have never said otherwise. I have said that
is is unlikely that someone can learn without _any_ instruction in a
reasonable period of time. Most will never learn kayaking - especially
whitewater - to a reasonable skill level without any instruction.

If you refuse to answer yet again, I think it would be fair to assume that
you don't have the evidence.

Again - please post a quote from me where I have made any such claim that you
ask me to prove. You are asking me to prove your statements, not mine.

You are the one that is making the claims that aren't supportable. You
insist on relying on anecdote without specifying the source. You make
blowhard claims about beating the experts without training.

Mike

I've seen a few people who make the lives of professional teaching recommend people to freedom, not for their own learning. But it is a and foolish the whole or any statement that is not a competent teachers will always say that. That the high-risk activities are often the best fact has nothing to do with others, with the discussion. We are talking about whether it is possible to learn without professional skills teaching canoeing.