"KMAN" wrote in message
news

My part in the discussion came about because I felt that opinions were
being expressed to suggest that one cannot learn to kayak without
professional instruction.

As the guy who started the whole thing by asking why the subject boat was
hard for a "beginner" to control, I must express my sincerest apologies for
ever having posted. The group seems to be wound fairly tightly, with a few
pretty helpful people and a bunch of people with a lot of free-floating
hostility.

Most of the "paddling" that goes on here is on one another's butts.

Anyone on here have a canoe?

"Roger Houston" wrote in message
...

"KMAN" wrote in message
news

My part in the discussion came about because I felt that opinions were
being expressed to suggest that one cannot learn to kayak without
professional instruction.

As the guy who started the whole thing by asking why the subject boat was
hard for a "beginner" to control, I must express my sincerest apologies
for ever having posted.

Don't be silly now...

The group seems to be wound fairly tightly

That's the outcome of the professionalization of recreation.

with a few pretty helpful people and a bunch of people with a lot of
free-floating hostility.

Often they are the same people.

Most of the "paddling" that goes on here is on one another's butts.

Sometimes, yes.

Anyone on here have a canoe?

Yeah, me :-)

I learned to paddle it myself. Haven't died yet. Its'a 17" wenonah royalex.
My wife and I use it as a tripping canoe for routes where a kayak is less
than handy (i.e. lots of portaging).

When I was younger I did a lot of whitewater canoeing with my father in a
Scott kevlar. Didn't die then either. We had a great time all across
Northern Ontario while visiting my grandparents (deceased, but for the
record, neither of them died due to lack of professional instruction).

On 14-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote:

That's the outcome of the professionalization of recreation.

And you claim that you don't denigrate professionals.

You're so full of ****, Keenan.

Mike

Michael:
==============
That's the outcome of the professionalization of recreation.

And you claim that you don't denigrate professionals.

You're so full of ****, Keenan.
===============

I don't denigrate professionals, but, I too, wonder at the
"professionalization of recreation".

Why can't kids play soccer (hockey, basketball, etc) anymore, without
going to camps lead by ex-pro athletes? Apparently the lowly parent
subbing players as required in games isn't good enough for some. Why
must people assume they have to take lessons to ski? I skiied for
several years, having a great deal of fun, putting the weight on the
wrong foot when turning (I assumed it was like skating); lessons would
have sped up the learning of that fact, but I'm not sure I would have
had more fun.

Michael, I'm not opposed to lessons, but I think our society
occasionally gets carried away with the formalization of recreation
(just look at all the people signing up for cooking lessons; fer
crissakes, it's not rocket science!!!! -- read a friggin' cookbook!!!).

My $0.02 -- and no denigration of professionals

On 15-Oct-2005, "BCITORGB" wrote:

Why can't kids play soccer (hockey, basketball, etc) anymore, without
going to camps lead by ex-pro athletes? Apparently the lowly parent
subbing players as required in games isn't good enough for some.

There is a problem with organized sports and that problem is parents.
They want to live the successful athlete's life vicariously through
their kids.

However, most organized sports consists of well-meaning dads and moms
helping their kids play for fun. Those moms and dads may not be as
obvious as the loud-mouthed nutcase parents, but they are by far in
the majority. Friends and relatives of mine are in that category.
My brother-in-law has done a lot of good with kids in curling. If
it isn't fun, he makes sure the kids make the right decision about
whether to continue.

Michael, I'm not opposed to lessons, but I think our society
occasionally gets carried away with the formalization of recreation
(just look at all the people signing up for cooking lessons; fer
crissakes, it's not rocket science!!!! -- read a friggin' cookbook!!!).

That's fine - you can take lessons if you want. Otherwise you can
learn on your own. But that's not the same thing as saying that
professional instructors are somehow bad. And cooking isn't rocket
science - it's chemistry :-)

In defense of cooking instruction - there are a lot of things that just
can't be explained well in a cookbook - folding for example - 30 seconds
of demonstration is better than hours of reading. I learned to cook
from watching my mom and cooking shows as a kid - the former for the
basics and the latter for the fancy stuff.

I've learned a lot over the years from lots of people. I'm not
going to pretend that I don't owe them a great deal. That doesn't mean
that I desperately need a professional instructor - even a single
word from an experienced person can turn on a light.

Mike

Michael says:
=============
I've learned a lot over the years from lots of people. I'm not
going to pretend that I don't owe them a great deal. That doesn't mean
that I desperately need a professional instructor - even a single
word from an experienced person can turn on a light.
=============

I concur 100%.

Why do I have this funny feeling (trying not to speak for KMAN here)
KMAN wouldn't disagree either.

On 15-Oct-2005, "BCITORGB" wrote:

Why do I have this funny feeling (trying not to speak for KMAN here)
KMAN wouldn't disagree either.

If he did, he'd find a way to insult me in the process. He's been
doing that in all the years since we first crossed paths on Usenet.

Mike

in article , BCITORGB
at wrote on 10/15/05 8:27 PM:

Michael says:
=============
I've learned a lot over the years from lots of people. I'm not
going to pretend that I don't owe them a great deal. That doesn't mean
that I desperately need a professional instructor - even a single
word from an experienced person can turn on a light.
=============

I concur 100%.

Why do I have this funny feeling (trying not to speak for KMAN here)
KMAN wouldn't disagree either.

I wouldn't :-)

I've been trying to make the simple point that SOME people are capable of
learning on their own.

I further understand and agree that with some people and/or with certain
skills being self-taught could mean a longer learning curve than would be
epxerienced with professional instruction.

But I firmly believe ALL people SHOULD be capable of learning without
professional instruction. The fact that some are not (or think they are not)
is evidence for me of a problem in our culture - that the learning instinct
has been beaten out of some of the human beings in our society.

My own approach to supporting the learning of others is to view my role as a
facilitator. I am not "teaching" them. Teaching from that perspective is
something you "do to" someone. I prefer to understand it is a process we are
sharing together. I am going to learn things from them as well (and that's
for me the most rewarding thing about supporting people to learn).

I facilitate their learning - making sure they are in charge, rather than
adopting a superior instructor vs inferior learner approach. Professional or
otherwise, that's the perspective I look for in choosing professionals that
help me in my own life.

in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 10/15/05 6:22 PM:


On 15-Oct-2005, "BCITORGB" wrote:

Why can't kids play soccer (hockey, basketball, etc) anymore, without
going to camps lead by ex-pro athletes? Apparently the lowly parent
subbing players as required in games isn't good enough for some.

There is a problem with organized sports and that problem is parents.
They want to live the successful athlete's life vicariously through
their kids.

However, most organized sports consists of well-meaning dads and moms
helping their kids play for fun.

Do you go and watch kids in organized sports? Those well-meaning moms and
dads - a lot of them - are screaming for their kid to do things that aren't
very nice.

Those moms and dads may not be as
obvious as the loud-mouthed nutcase parents, but they are by far in
the majority. Friends and relatives of mine are in that category.
My brother-in-law has done a lot of good with kids in curling. If
it isn't fun, he makes sure the kids make the right decision about
whether to continue.

See my other post about coaching. Although only 10% of the parents actually
walk out, I've learned about 50% of those who remain ain't happy.

Michael, I'm not opposed to lessons, but I think our society
occasionally gets carried away with the formalization of recreation
(just look at all the people signing up for cooking lessons; fer
crissakes, it's not rocket science!!!! -- read a friggin' cookbook!!!).

That's fine - you can take lessons if you want. Otherwise you can
learn on your own. But that's not the same thing as saying that
professional instructors are somehow bad.

Who has said this?

in article , BCITORGB
at wrote on 10/15/05 4:49 PM:

Michael:
==============
That's the outcome of the professionalization of recreation.

And you claim that you don't denigrate professionals.

You're so full of ****, Keenan.
===============

I don't denigrate professionals, but, I too, wonder at the
"professionalization of recreation".

Why can't kids play soccer (hockey, basketball, etc) anymore, without
going to camps lead by ex-pro athletes?

LOL. I just wrote something similar.

Apparently the lowly parent
subbing players as required in games isn't good enough for some.

I coach and have coached a number of children in sports. It has come to the
point where I have to have a meeting with all the parents and explain to
them that all the children are going to get equal playing time, and that if
this is a problem for any parent, they should move their child to another
team now, rather than put them in the middle of a situation where coach and
parent cannot agree. And, believe it or not, about 10% of parents actually
pull their kids of the team.

Why
must people assume they have to take lessons to ski? I skiied for
several years, having a great deal of fun, putting the weight on the
wrong foot when turning (I assumed it was like skating); lessons would
have sped up the learning of that fact, but I'm not sure I would have
had more fun.

I learned how to downhill ski when my buddies took me up to the top of the
hill and pushed me. I was a little upset at the time, but I always had a
blast, right from that first moment. In some sports (like tennis) I decided
I really wanted to become technically proficient, so I worked at my game.
But in skiing, I stuck with my original technique. Good times.

Michael, I'm not opposed to lessons, but I think our society
occasionally gets carried away with the formalization of recreation
(just look at all the people signing up for cooking lessons; fer
crissakes, it's not rocket science!!!! -- read a friggin' cookbook!!!).

My $0.02 -- and no denigration of professionals

Agree, agree.

I am ashamed to say I now have several acquaintances who feel they need
"personal trainers" because they can't stop eating like pigs or get off
their asses to go for walk. They honestly believe it is not possible for
them to lose weight without a professional to help them. The professionals
who do this work are not to blame. It's the culture that has produced such a
belief that is to blame.