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DaggerAnimas
I persuaded my friend to buy a used Dagger Animas as a first boat. I had
read reviews that it was a great first boat. The guy at the counter of the store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in between. We took it out today where a river feeds into a lake, still a bit of current, and some wind. The boat just spins on its center of rotation and is very difficult to control as to direction of travel. She'd be paddling (an experienced canoeist new to kayaks), and it would yaw right and left, and when she finally got going it would suddenly switch ends, doing an uncommanded 180 degree turn. It caused her no end of frustration, and in the end, I had to tow her back to where we put in. The boat at the end of a toe line was as undisciplined as had been the case when paddled freely, yawing and yanking at the tow line. I must say I am disappointed, and the beginner is discouraged. I've got to find her another used boat. For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed at all, vs being put together to look cool? |
DaggerAnimas
"Roger Houston" wrote in message ... I persuaded my friend to buy a used Dagger Animas as a first boat. I had read reviews that it was a great first boat. With friends like you, who needs Animas ... |
DaggerAnimas
On 6-Oct-2005, "Roger Houston" wrote: The guy at the counter of the store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in between. Don't listen to that guy again. The Animas is a WW kayak. It may not be the latest and greatest playboat, but it was a popular kayak at one time. The boat just spins on its center of rotation and is very difficult to control as to direction of travel. That sounds about right for a WW kayak. They are designed to handle in rough water and will change directions fast. The price you pay is that you have to learn how to control it. Every WW kayak will spin out of control when paddled on fla****er unless you learn to correct the motion with pretty much every other stroke. Tell your friend that she will have to spend a lot of time in the kayak to get used to it. If you switch it for a kayak that will track well, that will be a kayak that is difficult to use in WW. If she didn't want to do WW, then definitely get a different kayak. WW kayaks are for WW. Mike |
DaggerAnimas
Roger Houston wrote:
I persuaded my friend to buy a used Dagger Animas as a first boat. I had read reviews that it was a great first boat. The guy at the counter of the store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in between. The guy at the store doesn't quite know what he's talking about. The Dagger Piedra is the Animas scaled down for smaller people; everything I shall say about the Piedra with my 150# & 120# friends applies to the Animas with a heavier paddler. My friends Jon and Karen love the Piedra for (up to) Class IV/V whitewater in both the Rockies and the Appalachians. The Piedras were not their first boats, nor are they their only whitewater boats (they have Micro-235s for steep creekin') but if they had to keep just one boat each I believe they would keep the Piedras because the Piedras are so stable and predictable in turbulent whitewater yet versatile enough for all but the gnarliest creeks -- which is why the reviews called the Animas a good first boat. [Don't don't seize upon the weight/size issue; at yer friend's level of boating it is NOT an issue; at her experience level, on flat moving water, the Animas and the Piedra might as well be interchangable.] We took it out today where a river feeds into a lake, still a bit of current, and some wind. The boat just spins on its center of rotation and is very difficult to control as to direction of travel. She'd be paddling (an experienced canoeist new to kayaks), and it would yaw right and left, and when she finally got going it would suddenly switch ends, doing an uncommanded 180 degree turn. It caused her no end of frustration, and in the end, I had to tow her back to where we put in. The boat at the end of a toe line was as undisciplined as had been the case when paddled freely, yawing and yanking at the tow line. Though the salesman was not right about the Animas being unsuitable for whitewater, and though he should have broadened the "sea-kayaking" category to "touring" (to include lake and flat-river paddling) He was right about it being a good boat for swif****er paddling, and if he is a young hot-dog whitewater boater he probably included everything up to Class III whitewater in the "in between" category. If she is experienced in tripping canoes, the Animas would understandably have been a problem for her. If she had been experienced in whitewater canoes she should have had no trouble (I have to consciously keep my whitewater canoe on track when I'm on flat stretches, and my canoe will spin out just like her kayak if I stop paddling and don't keep the blade in the water for control). Jon & Karen have no trouble paddling their Piedras across the lakes we encounter at the bottoms of some whitewater runs, because J&K have cleared the learning curve. I must say I am disappointed, and the beginner is discouraged. I've got to find her another used boat. Absolutely, if she is looking for a fla****er touring boat. Absolutely not if she wants to become a whitewater boater; if she wants to become a whitewater boater she needs to learn how to make it go straight when she needs to go straight, and how to take advantage of its high maneuverability when she needs to maneuver in variable currents. But you would know all this if you were a whitewater boater, and I am guessing she wants to learn the kind of boating you do, so you are probably right: you probably need to find her another boat. A Dagger Blackwater, perhaps: 10.5' long (if I remember correctly) with a slight keel or skeg to help it track. For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed at all, vs being put together to look cool? Please don't insult the boat because you received less than perfect advice from the salesman. The Animas and the Piedra were never cool; they were always workhorse kayaks for the less-extreme whitewater boater, but Jon & Karen lovvvvvvvve the predictable performance of the Animas' little-brother boat. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .. Winston-Salem, NC, USA .. . . Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll . . .. rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net . . . . . . . . . .. cell: (301) 775-0471 .. OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters .. rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu . . . . . . . . . . . office: (336) 713-5077 ================================================== ==================== |
DaggerAnimas
"John" wrote in message ... "Roger Houston" wrote in message ... I persuaded my friend to buy a used Dagger Animas as a first boat. I had read reviews that it was a great first boat. With friends like you, who needs Animas ... Or for that matter enemas. But what about the boat? Why does it do that? |
DaggerAnimas
"Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message oups.com... For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed at all, vs being put together to look cool? Please don't insult the boat because you received less than perfect advice from the salesman. Yeah, that was harsh. I guess the motive power for the boat is in the current, and the paddle inputs are for directional control. At any rate, both the salesman and on online review I consulted prior to making the recommendation were seriously in error. I am more optimistic now that we can get her money or most of it out of the Animas by selling it to someone for whom it is better suited, or trading it in on a boat more suitable to fla****er touring which I guess is the other name for paddling up and down the river and through its impoundments watching the trees change colors. Thanks. |
DaggerAnimas
It was designed as a whitewater boat and was popular about 10 or 11 years
ago. It's definitely not a flat water boat. I would call the person back that you bought it from and have a few words with him. If he's decent he should take the boat back and sell you a recreational boat. If you're not sure about the boats they have but are interested in a few there, just write us back here and we'll give you input. Courtney "Roger Houston" wrote in message ... I persuaded my friend to buy a used Dagger Animas as a first boat. I had read reviews that it was a great first boat. The guy at the counter of the store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in between. We took it out today where a river feeds into a lake, still a bit of current, and some wind. The boat just spins on its center of rotation and is very difficult to control as to direction of travel. She'd be paddling (an experienced canoeist new to kayaks), and it would yaw right and left, and when she finally got going it would suddenly switch ends, doing an uncommanded 180 degree turn. It caused her no end of frustration, and in the end, I had to tow her back to where we put in. The boat at the end of a toe line was as undisciplined as had been the case when paddled freely, yawing and yanking at the tow line. I must say I am disappointed, and the beginner is discouraged. I've got to find her another used boat. For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed at all, vs being put together to look cool? |
DaggerAnimas
Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to name
just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should help you with your choices. Courtney "Roger Houston" wrote in message ... "Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message oups.com... For what purpose is the Animas actually designed. Or was it designed at all, vs being put together to look cool? Please don't insult the boat because you received less than perfect advice from the salesman. Yeah, that was harsh. I guess the motive power for the boat is in the current, and the paddle inputs are for directional control. At any rate, both the salesman and on online review I consulted prior to making the recommendation were seriously in error. I am more optimistic now that we can get her money or most of it out of the Animas by selling it to someone for whom it is better suited, or trading it in on a boat more suitable to fla****er touring which I guess is the other name for paddling up and down the river and through its impoundments watching the trees change colors. Thanks. |
DaggerAnimas
"Michael Daly" wrote in message ... On 6-Oct-2005, "Roger Houston" wrote: The guy at the counter of the store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in between. Don't listen to that guy again. Sound advice. The store has since gone out of business. Wonder why? The Animas is a WW kayak. It may not be the latest and greatest playboat, but it was a popular kayak at one time. I wish I'd sought the expertise of paddlers rather than the patter of the salesman or even the vague statements of Dagger's own page at http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257 which says "Stable, all-around river runner . comfortable cockpit for larger paddlers . long waterline for speed and tracking . for those who prefer a longer, more predictable kayak . choice beginner kayak or big water boat for anyone" "Long waterline for ... tracking" "more predictable kayak" would seem to imply a broader spectrum of usability than is actually the case. |
DaggerAnimas
"Courtney" wrote in message ink.net... Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to name just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should help you with your choices. As I mentioned in another post, I won't check out Dagger's site as a source of primary information. Not knowing anything else about the boat, what is written on their site at http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257 would lead one to believe that the boat tracks and is predictable for beginners, neither of which proved to be the case with the boat in question. I think I'll ask on here; the ng seems to have been a source of pretty reliable information in other respects. |
DaggerAnimas
Yeah, the Animas is an old school 10+feet? boat, a good one for sure for
bigger water, but a WW boat for sure. WW boats are made to "spin" on a dime. She\you will have no problem "tracking" it once you develop a good stroke. ANY boat tracks if you know what yer doin'. "Michael Daly" wrote in message ... On 6-Oct-2005, "Roger Houston" wrote: The guy at the counter of the store whose owner put it in stock for sale said that it was not for whitewater, and not for sea kayaking, but great for everything in between. Don't listen to that guy again. The Animas is a WW kayak. It may not be the latest and greatest playboat, but it was a popular kayak at one time. The boat just spins on its center of rotation and is very difficult to control as to direction of travel. That sounds about right for a WW kayak. They are designed to handle in rough water and will change directions fast. The price you pay is that you have to learn how to control it. Every WW kayak will spin out of control when paddled on fla****er unless you learn to correct the motion with pretty much every other stroke. Tell your friend that she will have to spend a lot of time in the kayak to get used to it. If you switch it for a kayak that will track well, that will be a kayak that is difficult to use in WW. If she didn't want to do WW, then definitely get a different kayak. WW kayaks are for WW. Mike |
DaggerAnimas
On 7-Oct-2005, "Roger Houston" wrote: "Stable, all-around river runner . comfortable cockpit for larger paddlers . long waterline for speed and tracking . for those who prefer a longer, more predictable kayak . choice beginner kayak or big water boat for anyone" "Long waterline for ... tracking" "more predictable kayak" would seem to imply a broader spectrum of usability than is actually the case. There's nothing wrong with that statement as it applies to a whitewater kayak. Your expectations are what's wrong. You have to do more homework before jumping to the conclusion that this kayak is suitable for a beginner that isn't prepared to learn how to handle a WW kayak. You didn't address the issue that was commented on by a couple of us - is she looking for a WW kayak or not? Mike |
DaggerAnimas
Being as how our water is mostly brown, I guess I'd have to say "nah..."
The boat's for sale. "Michael Daly" wrote in message ... On 7-Oct-2005, "Roger Houston" wrote: "Stable, all-around river runner . comfortable cockpit for larger paddlers . long waterline for speed and tracking . for those who prefer a longer, more predictable kayak . choice beginner kayak or big water boat for anyone" "Long waterline for ... tracking" "more predictable kayak" would seem to imply a broader spectrum of usability than is actually the case. There's nothing wrong with that statement as it applies to a whitewater kayak. Your expectations are what's wrong. You have to do more homework before jumping to the conclusion that this kayak is suitable for a beginner that isn't prepared to learn how to handle a WW kayak. You didn't address the issue that was commented on by a couple of us - is she looking for a WW kayak or not? Mike |
DaggerAnimas
Roger Houston wrote:
"Courtney" wrote in message ink.net... Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to name just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should help you with your choices. As I mentioned in another post, I won't check out Dagger's site as a source of primary information. Not knowing anything else about the boat, what is written on their site at http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257 would lead one to believe that the boat tracks and is predictable for beginners, neither of which proved to be the case with the boat in question. I think I'll ask on here; the ng seems to have been a source of pretty reliable information in other respects. The fact that Dagger's site lists it among the whitewater kayaks didn't suggest anything to you? As whitewater boats go, it's stable and predictable. NO WW boat tracks well on fla****er, they are designed to turn, not track. I can understand that you and your friend are upset, but it's the salesman's fault for misleading you, not Dagger's -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA |
DaggerAnimas
"Steve Cramer" wrote in message ... The fact that Dagger's site lists it among the whitewater kayaks didn't suggest anything to you? In retrospect only. I navigated directly from Google to the product page at http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257. That little tab at the top that says "Whitewater" is orange on red, a minimally visible combination, and I saw it after the fact. Not an excuse, but a reason. I can understand that you and your friend are upset, but it's the salesman's fault for misleading you, not Dagger's As I said, I think the classification of the watercraft is less prominently displayed than it could have been. This plus the salesman's obvious lack of knowledge of the craft contributed to my being misled. I'm sure Dagger appreciates your pro bono defense of them. Yes, it's all my fault, as I acknowledged in a different post. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I don't know how many more people want to chime in and castigate me, but have at it, I don't much care. You'll indulge my reluctance not to post my GPS coordinates so you all can't come over, line up and spank me. As I said, the boat's for sale and the (different shop) proprietor / salesman is pretty confident he'll be able to sell it for me on consignment. In fact, I think he has a buyer in mind, someone who knows what he wants and wants a boat that does uncommanded donuts in the hands of a beginner but will do exactly what an expert wants. And another boat, a FLA****er rental veteran with lots of miles left on it, has my name on it for about the same price. So everything is status quo ante except that I've revealed my ignorance for all of you to point out, and some of you have had a chance to display your blindingly superior knowledge of this discipline. I imagine you were never beginners and of course you don't make mistakes. Me, I'll be more careful whom I trust. Thanks to those who offered to answer my questions on here. I hooked up with a fellow in real life who's as kind and knowledgeable as most of you have proven to be. Kind AND knowledgeable. A nice combination, and not universal attributes. Right, Steve? |
DaggerAnimas
Maria Teresa Chupacabra wrote:
"Steve Cramer" wrote in message ... The fact that Dagger's site lists it among the whitewater kayaks didn't suggest anything to you? In retrospect only. I navigated directly from Google to the product page at http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257. That little tab at the top that says "Whitewater" is orange on red, a minimally visible combination, and I saw it after the fact. Not an excuse, but a reason. I can understand that you and your friend are upset, but it's the salesman's fault for misleading you, not Dagger's As I said, I think the classification of the watercraft is less prominently displayed than it could have been. This plus the salesman's obvious lack of knowledge of the craft contributed to my being misled. I'm sure Dagger appreciates your pro bono defense of them. Yes, it's all my fault, as I acknowledged in a different post. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. I don't know how many more people want to chime in and castigate me, but have at it, I don't much care. You'll indulge my reluctance not to post my GPS coordinates so you all can't come over, line up and spank me. As I said, the boat's for sale and the (different shop) proprietor / salesman is pretty confident he'll be able to sell it for me on consignment. In fact, I think he has a buyer in mind, someone who knows what he wants and wants a boat that does uncommanded donuts in the hands of a beginner but will do exactly what an expert wants. And another boat, a FLA****er rental veteran with lots of miles left on it, has my name on it for about the same price. So everything is status quo ante except that I've revealed my ignorance for all of you to point out, and some of you have had a chance to display your blindingly superior knowledge of this discipline. I imagine you were never beginners and of course you don't make mistakes. Me, I'll be more careful whom I trust. Thanks to those who offered to answer my questions on here. I hooked up with a fellow in real life who's as kind and knowledgeable as most of you have proven to be. Kind AND knowledgeable. A nice combination, and not universal attributes. Right, Steve? Whoo, touchy, aren't we? Perhaps you have gotten a lot of feedback you didn't want, but such is the nature of usenet. I was merely commenting on your blaming Dagger for the mistake. There's nothing about the Dagger site that's misleading. Mea culpa doesn't work if you continue to blame other people unfairly. Ask your local priest. You might want to actually look at URLs before you click on them. http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257. ^^^^^^^ But you don't want any more advice from me, do you? -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA |
DaggerAnimas
"Steve Cramer" wrote in message ... http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257. ^^^^^^^ But you don't want any more advice from me, do you? Nope. And, as I said, I navigated from Google, so the URL I sent was originally embedded in a link. I said fairly plainly that it wasn't an excuse but a reason. This is a friend's computer BTW hence the different username. The kayak's gone, its replacement is on the way, but you still seem to be here. There's the door. Roger. |
DaggerAnimas
"Maria Teresa Chupacabra" wrote in
news:1128873819.6400fd394e268329017cac7a75936ab2@t eranews: "Steve Cramer" wrote in message ... http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257 . ^^^^^^^ But you don't want any more advice from me, do you? Nope. And, as I said, I navigated from Google, so the URL I sent was originally embedded in a link. I said fairly plainly that it wasn't an excuse but a reason. This is a friend's computer BTW hence the different username. The kayak's gone, its replacement is on the way, but you still seem to be here. There's the door. First, what did you get to replace it? Secondly, I've been reading this group for about 8 years and believe that Steve has been here as long as I have or longer. Coming into a forum and asking a long time regular to leave is not a very good way to gain favor from him and other regulars. Now that you've got (or getting) a new kayak you'll probably have a lot more questions regarding using it. I know that at least I would be more likely to spend time providing answers if I thought they'd be met with a bit more congenialtiy. |
DaggerAnimas
The statement that's on Dagger's web site for the Animas is for whitewater
boats and the statement is correct. It is a beginner whitewater boat and tracks straighter than many other whitewater boats, etc.... If they had used that description for recreational boats however it would have been a false statement. Look under the "recreational" descriptions on the company web pages, not "whitewater". You can even look under "sea kayaks" and get something that is a beginner sea kayak. It will generally be shorter and wider that the average sea kayak. It's kind of a hybrid between rec and sea. If you have any questions about some boats that you're see just write us and we'll give you feedback on them. Courtney "Roger Houston" wrote in message et... "Courtney" wrote in message ink.net... Why don't you check out www.dagger.com and www.wildernesssystems.com to name just two and research their touring and recreational boats. That should help you with your choices. As I mentioned in another post, I won't check out Dagger's site as a source of primary information. Not knowing anything else about the boat, what is written on their site at http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257 would lead one to believe that the boat tracks and is predictable for beginners, neither of which proved to be the case with the boat in question. I think I'll ask on here; the ng seems to have been a source of pretty reliable information in other respects. |
DaggerAnimas
Maria Teresa Chupacabra wrote:
"Steve Cramer" wrote in message ... The fact that Dagger's site lists it among the whitewater kayaks didn't suggest anything to you? In retrospect only. I navigated directly from Google to the product page at http://dagger.com/product.asp?BoatTy...C&BoatID= 257. That little tab at the top that says "Whitewater" is orange on red, a minimally visible combination, and I saw it after the fact. Not an excuse, but a reason. I can understand that you and your friend are upset, but it's the salesman's fault for misleading you, not Dagger's As I said, I think the classification of the watercraft is less prominently displayed than it could have been. [snip] Well, in Dagger's defense, they probably made the assuption -- correctly in most cases -- that visitors would navigate to that particular description after entering at their "home" page. In that case the visitor would have had to actively press the white-on-red "Whitewater" tab (which *then* changes to orange-on-red) to get to the list of whitewater boats. The fact that you might have googled directly to that page is a subtety their web designer should have considered, but corporate management (boat-builders, right? Not necessarily web-savvy) might be forgiven for having failed to consider the possibility. Don't feel too bad. When yer new to a sport, hobby, activity, it takes a while just to discover how much you don't know (I understand yer an experienced canoeist; I'm refering to your novelty wrt kayaking). No-one -- least of all Steve Cramer -- in this newsgroup is malicious; it's just the ol' hastily-typed written-communication-between-strangers thing, the stuff flame-wars are made of, that doesn't happen in face-to-face conversations between well-meaning people. Did I set a record for "number of hyphens in one sentence", or must I keep trying? But I digress. Even the fact of being steered wrong by the salesman is not very unusual; I couldn't count the number of people I have heard from who bought the wrong boat first time out. Including me (I mean, it *said* "whitewater" right in the name of the model -- the Mohawk Whitewater 16; how was I to know it was vastly inappropriate for solo paddling of serious whitewater?) If there is any kind of livery or kayak school in yer vicinity, yer friend could go a long way toward nailing down her choice of boat by test-driving a few, and maybe taking a class and discussing in detail with the instructor the kind of boating she wants to do (of course, the validity of this can also vary with the instructor; I've met a few who were so focused on their own paddling style that they could not be trusted to make unbiased suggestions). -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters ================================================== ==================== |
DaggerAnimas
Courtney wrote:
It was designed as a whitewater boat and was popular about 10 or 11 years ago. 10 or 11 years? Seems like lots longer than that; how time flies! The manufacturers' rush to crank out new models telescopes my sense of time. There have been sooooooo many models produced since then that it seems it should be decades since the Animas came out. But when I stop to think of it, the RPM was debut'd by EJ at the '93 Worlds rodeo competion (gold medal; yay EJ!) and on the market in plastic in '94, followed shortly by two de-tuned versions as entry level boats: the Animas and the Piedra. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters ================================================== ==================== |
DaggerAnimas
"John Fereira" wrote in message .. . First, what did you get to replace it? Another kayak. Some of the long-time regulars on here will agree with my choice, others will not. More to the point, I found a shop I hadn't visited for quite some time. Good guy, I'd bought climbing and camping gear off him. It suddenly dawned on me that (duhhhh.....) they sell KAYAKS there too. Off to the shop, another mea culpa or three for having overlooked them in my quest for a kayak, and now I'm all set. Shop has a better customer, I have a real knowledgeable salesman / mentor who actually cares whether the thing works for us or not, and will stand behind the thing and do everything in his power to make it work. He will also sell the highly coveted Animas for what I paid for it at the (now defunct) other shop, and he'll sell it to someone who knows what it is and how to use it, who has a roofrack to transport it the many miles to waters where it's the right boat for the job. Secondly, I've been reading this group for about 8 years and believe that Steve has been here as long as I have or longer. Coming into a forum and asking a long time regular to leave is not a very good way to gain favor from him and other regulars. You're at least partially right. I (Roger here again, not using Maria Teresa's computer today) should have said something different. Of course nobody can get kicked off of UseNet, right? So my response to him was hyperbolic. Unlike this most recent spanking you've just administered, my summary execution and expulsion of Steve was quite improper and unjustified. I'm sorry I know neither the ritual nor the incantations to gain favor from the in crowd. But thanks to you guys, I now know that WW doesn't just stand for "wrong way". I should have made a different observation, though, instead of kicking Steve off the internet. The horse was dead when Steve rode up. Now, it's a large, unpleasant oily blot on the shoulder of the road, and as recently as a day ago, Steve was still obsessively beating it. That's what I SHOULDA said. He can come back anytime and stay as long as he wants, and beat that poor old horse-stain as long as he pleases. I don't care. Now that you've got (or getting) a new kayak you'll probably have a lot more questions regarding using it. Yes, I will. And I won't ask guys named Steve who spend their valuable time finding brand new and creative ways to repetitively tell me I stuffed up. I knew it when he rode up. Shee-yit, it was me killed the damn horse in the first place, remember? I know that at least I would be more likely to spend time providing answers if I thought they'd be met with a bit more congenialtiy. Rightly so. But I don't know you, and you don't know me, and free advice (as I recently re-learned to my embarrassment, once in real life and repeatedly on R.B.P) is usually worth what you pay for it. If you run a shop, and I stop in, I will ask you questions. The difference between that and my Animas "experience" will be that I will assess your credibility as a knowledgeable kayak guy before I once again plunk down my hard-earned. I will assess you as a businessman the old fashioned way, not as a "long-time regular" on some electronic discussion group where the veracity of Dirty Harry's observation about opinions and orifices is so frequently borne out. AS often, I hasten to add, as is the old saw about speaking up. as I did, and removing all doubt. My new/old kayak guy runs a business and his advice is worth my money. I don't know that about you, or about Steve. I will run my own business doing what I'm good at and successful at, and my kayak guy will run his. You guys are entertaining to read, but you're a bit clannish and at least some of you have a tendency to haze newcomers. My thanks to those who don't. |
DaggerAnimas
Yes I know, it does seem like forever since the Animus first came to market.
I remember when doing enders and pirouettes in "Hell Hole" on the Ocoee was the big thing in the rodeo. WOW! How time flies. Courtney "Oci-One Kanubi" wrote in message oups.com... Courtney wrote: It was designed as a whitewater boat and was popular about 10 or 11 years ago. 10 or 11 years? Seems like lots longer than that; how time flies! The manufacturers' rush to crank out new models telescopes my sense of time. There have been sooooooo many models produced since then that it seems it should be decades since the Animas came out. But when I stop to think of it, the RPM was debut'd by EJ at the '93 Worlds rodeo competion (gold medal; yay EJ!) and on the market in plastic in '94, followed shortly by two de-tuned versions as entry level boats: the Animas and the Piedra. -Richard, His Kanubic Travesty -- ================================================== ==================== Richard Hopley Winston-Salem, NC, USA rhopley[at]earthlink[dot]net Nothing really matters except Boats, Sex, and Rock'n'Roll rhopley[at]wfubmc[dot]edu OK, OK; computer programming for scientific research also matters ================================================== ==================== |
DaggerAnimas
"Roger Houston" wrote in
: "John Fereira" wrote in message .. . First, what did you get to replace it? Another kayak. I know that. I was just curious as to what brand/model you replaced it with. Some of the long-time regulars on here will agree with my choice, others will not. You could replace the words "my choice" in the above sentence with just about any topic and you'd pretty much be right. More to the point, I found a shop I hadn't visited for quite some time. Good guy, I'd bought climbing and camping gear off him. It suddenly dawned on me that (duhhhh.....) they sell KAYAKS there too. Off to the shop, another mea culpa or three for having overlooked them in my quest for a kayak, and now I'm all set. Shop has a better customer, I have a real knowledgeable salesman / mentor who actually cares whether the thing works for us or not, and will stand behind the thing and do everything in his power to make it work. He will also sell the highly coveted Animas for what I paid for it at the (now defunct) other shop, and he'll sell it to someone who knows what it is and how to use it, who has a roofrack to transport it the many miles to waters where it's the right boat for the job. Sounds like you found a good shop to work with. It sounds quite a bit like the shop a friend of mine owns. Secondly, I've been reading this group for about 8 years and believe that Steve has been here as long as I have or longer. Coming into a forum and asking a long time regular to leave is not a very good way to gain favor from him and other regulars. You're at least partially right. I (Roger here again, not using Maria Teresa's computer today) should have said something different. Of course nobody can get kicked off of UseNet, right? So my response to him was hyperbolic. Unlike this most recent spanking you've just administered, my summary execution and expulsion of Steve was quite improper and unjustified. I'm sorry I know neither the ritual nor the incantations to gain favor from the in crowd. There are not rituals or incantations. From my 20+ years experience with Usenet I've found that generally getting testy if the answers to your questions don't exactly meet your expectations is likely going to provide equally testy responses. I should have made a different observation, though, instead of kicking Steve off the internet. The horse was dead when Steve rode up. Now, it's a large, unpleasant oily blot on the shoulder of the road, and as recently as a day ago, Steve was still obsessively beating it. That's what I SHOULDA said. He can come back anytime and stay as long as he wants, and beat that poor old horse-stain as long as he pleases. I don't care. It sounds like your biggest beef about it is that more than one person responded with essentially the same information (that the Animas *is* actually a WW boat). That's just the way Usenet works. Those that read and respond don't always check to see if a question has already been answered, and even when they do, might reword a response. Sometimes it looks like a pile-on a dead horse but you *do* have the option of just ignoring a post that appears to be directed to you if you feel you've sufficiently addressed an issue. Now that you've got (or getting) a new kayak you'll probably have a lot more questions regarding using it. Yes, I will. And I won't ask guys named Steve who spend their valuable time finding brand new and creative ways to repetitively tell me I stuffed up. I doubt that was intent and it's unfortunate that you'll categorically exclude "guys named Steve" based on one incident as there are several guys named Steve here that can provide a lot of useful information. I know that at least I would be more likely to spend time providing answers if I thought they'd be met with a bit more congenialtiy. Rightly so. But I don't know you, and you don't know me, and free advice (as I recently re-learned to my embarrassment, once in real life and repeatedly on R.B.P) is usually worth what you pay for it. Stick around this group long enough and you'll discover that among those providing free advice include instructors and shop owners with decades of experience, kayak designers, kayak company reps and founders, book and trade magazine article authors (including yours truely), and plenty of just plain good people with years and years of paddling experience. If you run a shop, and I stop in, I will ask you questions. The difference between that and my Animas "experience" will be that I will assess your credibility as a knowledgeable kayak guy before I once again plunk down my hard-earned. I will assess you as a businessman the old fashioned way, not as a "long-time regular" on some electronic discussion group where the veracity of Dirty Harry's observation about opinions and orifices is so frequently borne out. AS often, I hasten to add, as is the old saw about speaking up. as I did, and removing all doubt. I'm not sure how running a shop correlates with knowledge and advice about kayak models. If anything, someone that *doesn't* own a shop is more likely going to be less biased regarding a recommendation. It's entirely possible that the original shop owner for the Animus was more interested in unloading some stock than provided the right kayak for the job. I also know of quite a few shops where the proprietors are businessmen first and paddlers (assuming they even paddle) second. My new/old kayak guy runs a business and his advice is worth my money. I don't know that about you, or about Steve. I know that if you had posted *before* you bought the Animus it would have been pretty clear consensus in the responses as to whether it was a good match for you. Specificially, I would have suggested that there are very few kayaks that are designed as "beginners" kayaks (though many are marketed that way) and that the more important criteria is how well a model suits the type of water you're likely going to be paddling. I've also discovered that for many, until you start paddling a variety of types of water it's difficult to know what kinds of paddling you prefer. That makes choosing a first boat (and recommending one) rather difficult. I will run my own business doing what I'm good at and successful at, and my kayak guy will run his. You guys are entertaining to read, but you're a bit clannish and at least some of you have a tendency to haze newcomers. I suppose when a group of people participate in a social forum for a long period of time they get to know each other and can seem clanish but in my experience any hazing to newcomers is almost always in response to a newcomer becoming belligerant when their question are not being answered to their satisfaction. My thanks to those who don't. |
DaggerAnimas
"John Fereira" wrote in message .. . I know that if you had posted *before* you bought the Animus it would have been pretty clear consensus in the responses as to whether it was a good match for you. Indeed. I think I alluded to that at one point. Too soon old, too late smart. Specificially, I would have suggested that there are very few kayaks that are designed as "beginners" kayaks (though many are marketed that way) and that the more important criteria is how well a model suits the type of water you're likely going to be paddling. Now, this raises another point -- and one that at least in part contributed to my misinterpretation of the characterization of the first boat as a "beginner's" boat. I've been in whitewater on a raft, and the prospect of being on it in a solo kayak seemed to me to be somewhat daunting. Would you expose a "raw" kayaking beginner to whitewater? I personally wouldn't -- I'd want the individual to have had at least some experience paddling, turning, rolling, bracing, getting a feel for tipping so that the counterintuitive response to a broach on a rock would be less counterintuitive, etc. That's yet another reason I was somewhat incredulous that the "Sit And Spin" was a "beginner's" boat. A beginning whitewater paddlers, boat -- yeah, probably, as you guys have pointed out. A beginner's kayak, period? Heck, no. But I define whitewater as a non-beginner's environment. That may be an incorrect assessment, but it's my semi-informed impression about water and beginners. I taught fla****er canoeing to the Boy Scouts to include all the Merit Badge requirements and then some -- more stuff about cold water survival and so on as befits our climate. And it was with the Scouts that I enjoyed my first-hand experience with whitewater. I wasn't able to go along to the Boundary Waters with them -- work and all that -- but by all accounts they handled themselves well on the water after our sessions. And your comments about shop owners as experts is well-taken. My guy is knowledgeable, and has paddled extensively and taught. So no problem there -- except for the flat spot on the front of my forehead from smacking myself over having overlooked him as a good source of information and a boat. In general, perhaps the most expert would be the very antithesis of shop-owning businessmen -- the scrufty bum who can barely scrape together enough change for rent because he lives in his boat on the water might be the best source of information about some things aquatic. Thanks for the thoughtful post. I'll look for your byline in the magazines I'm grabbing right and left, because I'm busy reading everything I can get my hands on about kayaks -- recreational and sea kayaks appeal to me. I've got a good stack of Winter reading. |
DaggerAnimas
On 11-Oct-2005, "Roger Houston" wrote: Would you expose a "raw" kayaking beginner to whitewater? You have to get into the whitewater at some point to not be a beginner. You start with class 1 and work your way up. Instructors will start with fla****er and teach wet exits and basic rescue, but rolling is not taught up front. One very well respected kayak school teaches rolling on day three of a week-long course - and then only an introduction. It will take the student a lot longer to develop a roll that will be useful in WW. But that same student will be introduced to class 3 by the end of that same week. Students are not on their own (unless they learn KMAN's way), so they are not at exceptional risk. They also learn very quickly to appreciate the handling characteristics of a kayak like the Animas. Learning to keep it going in a straight line is also learned quickly enough. Mike |
DaggerAnimas
"Michael Daly" wrote in message ... On 11-Oct-2005, "Roger Houston" wrote: Would you expose a "raw" kayaking beginner to whitewater? You have to get into the whitewater at some point to not be a beginner. You start with class 1 and work your way up. Instructors will start with fla****er and teach wet exits and basic rescue, but rolling is not taught up front. One very well respected kayak school teaches rolling on day three of a week-long course - and then only an introduction. It will take the student a lot longer to develop a roll that will be useful in WW. But that same student will be introduced to class 3 by the end of that same week. Students are not on their own (unless they learn KMAN's way), so they are not at exceptional risk. They also learn very quickly to appreciate the handling characteristics of a kayak like the Animas. Learning to keep it going in a straight line is also learned quickly enough. Mike Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If so, I'd like to see it. Thanks. |
DaggerAnimas
On 12-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote: Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If so, I'd like to see it. A rank beginner that is self-taught in whitewater will quickly be swimming. The same paddler with a professional or competent non-professional instructor will be rescued and guided thru all steps of WW paddling. Swimming in WW is dangerous. Most of us know that - you don't. Mike |
DaggerAnimas
"Michael Daly" wrote in message ... On 12-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote: Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If so, I'd like to see it. A rank beginner that is self-taught in whitewater will quickly be swimming. Not if they start in an appropriate beginner environment. The same paddler with a professional or competent non-professional instructor will be rescued and guided thru all steps of WW paddling. Swimming in WW is dangerous. Most of us know that - you don't. Mike Your statement lacks foundation and is totally false. Also rather snotty, but then, this is Michael Daly after all! I repeat: Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If so, I'd like to see it. If you like, I can send you stories of various professionally trained kayakers who have been injured or perished. This is not to say that professional instruction has no value. But it is to say that thus far you have done nothing to demonstrate the superior nature of professional instruction to self-teaching. |
DaggerAnimas
On 12-Oct-2005, "KMAN" wrote: Not if they start in an appropriate beginner environment. And exactly what is that environment? Can you prove that it is safer than any other? Your statement lacks foundation and is totally false. If so, you should be able to prove that. I can send you stories of various professionally trained kayakers who have been injured or perished. Which only proves that you know some stories. Mike |
DaggerAnimas
"Michael Daly" wrote in message ... "Stable, all-around river runner . comfortable cockpit for larger paddlers . long waterline for speed and tracking . for those who prefer a longer, more predictable kayak . choice beginner kayak or big water boat for anyone" "Long waterline for ... tracking" "more predictable kayak" would seem to imply a broader spectrum of usability than is actually the case. There's nothing wrong with that statement as it applies to a whitewater kayak. Your expectations are what's wrong. ... You voted Republican, didn't you. LOL |
DaggerAnimas
"Suds (Popeye's friend)" wrote in message ... There's nothing wrong with that statement as it applies to a whitewater kayak. Your expectations are what's wrong. ... You voted Republican, didn't you. LOL Now, if someone would only be kind enough to work Hitler in here somewheres, we'll just invoke Godwin's law and kill this goddamned thread as dead as the horsey puddle back there aways..... |
DaggerAnimas
Roger Houston wrote:
Now, this raises another point -- and one that at least in part contributed to my misinterpretation of the characterization of the first boat as a "beginner's" boat. I've been in whitewater on a raft, and the prospect of being on it in a solo kayak seemed to me to be somewhat daunting. Would you expose a "raw" kayaking beginner to whitewater? I personally wouldn't -- I'd want the individual to have had at least some experience paddling, turning, rolling, bracing, getting a feel for tipping so that the counterintuitive response to a broach on a rock would be less counterintuitive, etc. How raw is raw? In the 10+ years I've been teaching WW canoe and kayak, I put beginners on Class I-II (well, there's a II++ at the end of one river) after 5 or 6 hours of fla****er instruction. I also put touring boaters in the surf on day 2. They generally do fine. Most of them can't roll at the time of their first river trip, but that doesn't dempen their enthusiasm any. That's yet another reason I was somewhat incredulous that the "Sit And Spin" was a "beginner's" boat. A beginning whitewater paddlers, boat -- yeah, probably, as you guys have pointed out. A beginner's kayak, period? Heck, no. We've had discussions about the concept of "beginner's boats" here in the past. A lot of what pass for beginner boats are really dead end boats (I don't mean this in a disparaging way. Some of my friends have happily put a lot of miles on Pungos). But many boats sold as beginner boats are designed to get you on the water with the minimum investment of $ and learning time. Nothing wrong with that if you just want something to keep at the lake house for guests to dink around with, but these types of boats do not lead to increased mastery of the skill of paddling. They tend to be too stable, among other things, so that you can't learn to edge into turns. You can't roll them, and you certainly can't learn to roll in them. They are not suited for anything but very sheltered water. So if you want to paddle WW, it's better to start in a real WW boat, although probably not the latest and greatest (and smallest) playboat. Someting more like, dare I say, an Animas. On the other hand, if you're serious about touring, you probably need a touring boat narrower than 25" and longer than 14'. Ideally, one boat could do it all, but it can't, any more than one bicycle or car can take you from dirt to asphalt. So it's necessary to try a few things out to see whether you want to put the effort into learning them. Maybe a little frustrating at first, but it can pay off later. -- Steve Cramer Athens, GA |
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DaggerAnimas
On 12-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote: And exactly what is that environment? Can you prove that it is safer than any other? Uh. Prove that it is safer...well, I'd say a sheltered bay with a sandy bottom is safer than Niagara Falls. What is it you are saying that is different than what I already said the pros do? You accused me of not understanding that swimming in whitewater is dangerous. No, I'm pointing out that you are ignoring that issue and assuming that a rank amateur with no instruction will be able to magically acquire the skills to handle WW on his own. No competent WW instructor, professional or otherwise, would suggest that a paddler learn WW on his own. WW is a dangerous environment and requires paddlers to learn how to handle the conditions and work together on the water. With an instructor, the student has an experienced person standing by. With the solo learner, there's no support. They will be objective third party news articles. Which still proves nothing in support of your arguments. Mike |
DaggerAnimas
in article , Michael Daly at
wrote on 10/13/05 1:55 AM: On 12-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote: And exactly what is that environment? Can you prove that it is safer than any other? Uh. Prove that it is safer...well, I'd say a sheltered bay with a sandy bottom is safer than Niagara Falls. What is it you are saying that is different than what I already said the pros do? Why are you moving away from the question that was posed? Is that the Michael Daly way of saying "You are right of course, I apologize. Now here's something else I'd like to ask you about?" In any event, I think you'll find I answer this question below. You accused me of not understanding that swimming in whitewater is dangerous. No, I'm pointing out that you are ignoring that issue and assuming that a rank amateur with no instruction will be able to magically acquire the skills to handle WW on his own. And, yet again, there is no foundation for this statement, and it is quite false. It's not magic at all. A self-taught paddler (as you seem to understand from your question above) would indeed follow a similar path as they would be led down by an instructor. This really isn't rocket science. You experiment, make observations, make adjustuments, and repeat. You start in fla****er, move to I/II, and move to increasingly challenging environments as you improve. I wouldn't recommend learning WW alone, but that doesn't mean you have to have a professional instructor in order to learn and continue developing in a self-taught manner. No competent WW instructor, professional or otherwise, would suggest that a paddler learn WW on his own. I've met few people who make their living on professional instruction recommending that people learn on their own for free instead. But it's a rather silly all or nothing statement to suggest that not one competent instructor would ever say this. I've spoken to some myself who are quite honest in saying that they know many a fine self-taught WW paddler. WW is a dangerous environment and requires paddlers to learn how to handle the conditions and work together on the water. Yes. Well, I've yet to meet any paddlers who refuse to work together with a competent self-taught paddler. With an instructor, the student has an experienced person standing by. With the solo learner, there's no support. Now you've changed your emphasis completely. So it's about having an experienced person standing by? Once again, you never asked me anything about this. Had you simply said "Don't you think, in a challenging WW environment, that it makes sense to have an experienced person standing by?" I'd have replied in the affirmative. The fact that high-risk activities are often best conducted with others has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. We are talking about whether or not it is possible to learn kayaking skills without professional instruction. Try, for once, to stay on track. And when you find that your logic fails, try, for once, simply admitting it instead of trying to distract and dodge from the issue. They will be objective third party news articles. Which still proves nothing in support of your arguments. Mike Then I guess there's no point, and I guess you will never answer the question. What a surprise! Just to recap (and reminding you that I have answered all of your questions, even the ones that were obvious dodges from questions you were attempting to escape) the question to you was as follows: Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If so, I'd like to see it. |
DaggerAnimas
On 13-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote: Why are you moving away from the question that was posed? The question posed was nonsense from KMAN. You keep avoiding the issues surrounding your claims. I pointed out how the professionals will instruct a new paddler in WW. You made a reference that ignored what I had already stated. I'm just trying to get you to realize that you can't seem to follow the discussion. A self-taught paddler (as you seem to understand from your question above) would indeed follow a similar path as they would be led down by an instructor. How would this self-taught paddler know what path to follow? How do you know they won't just plunge into class 4 WW - after all, that's what they see on TV. I've spoken to some myself who are quite honest in saying that they know many a fine self-taught WW paddler. Name them - and these magical students. I've taught many sports over the years and have yet to find these magically skilled self-taught athletes. I've come across lots of folks who can do a mediocre job of imitating the experts but need a lot of work to get good. On rare occasions, I meet someone, usually an accomplished athlete in another sport, who learns particularly well or quickly from watching others, but that;s not the same as learning, as you say, " experiment, make observations, make adjustuments[sic], and repeat". So it's about having an experienced person standing by? Once again, you never asked me anything about this. Had you simply said "Don't you think, in a challenging WW environment, that it makes sense to have an experienced person standing by?" I'd have replied in the affirmative. Which goes against your position that one learns adequately on one's own. Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If so, I'd like to see it. Since it is you who espouses the non-standard view, perhaps you should be the one offereing proof. You constantly insist that self-taught are safer and as good as otherwise, but have never offered one iota of proof. |
DaggerAnimas
"Michael Daly" wrote in message ... On 13-Oct-2005, KMAN wrote: Why are you moving away from the question that was posed? The question posed was nonsense from KMAN. You keep avoiding the issues surrounding your claims. I pointed out how the professionals will instruct a new paddler in WW. You made a reference that ignored what I had already stated. I'm just trying to get you to realize that you can't seem to follow the discussion. Perhaps it would help if you would specify. You tend to reply by removing any context and then making generalized whinings and complaints. I'm quite certain that throughout this discussion I've been quite specific, and have addressed your questions in a direct fashion. A self-taught paddler (as you seem to understand from your question above) would indeed follow a similar path as they would be led down by an instructor. How would this self-taught paddler know what path to follow? How do you know they won't just plunge into class 4 WW - after all, that's what they see on TV. If your point is that some people are stupid, point taken. As I've said, I can point you to countless third-party verifiable tales of professionally trained people who perish doing stupid things. It's possible there are people who buy a WW kayak and go directly into class 4 and die. Can you point me to some verifiable stories where this has happened? Is this common? Or are you just making the point that someone who has done no learning and goes into a set of class IV rapids would be in a lot of danger? If so, may I say, once again, you need only ask me: "Do you think it's a good idea for a new kayaker to plunge into class 4 WW?" because, yet again, I would have replied in the affirmative. My point - and a very different one - is that someone who wants to teach themselves something - anything, including kayaking - can do so if they understand just the basics of how things are learned. People do it every day. You experiment, you observe, you progress, you experiment, you observe, you progress. I've spoken to some myself who are quite honest in saying that they know many a fine self-taught WW paddler. Name them - and these magical students. Oddly enough, I don't think it's a good idea to give you the opportunity to smear their names. I will however see if they are interested in coming into this corner of the world and joining with me to tell you what an ass you are, but that would be up to them, and I don't know if they are usenet folks. But if you get tired of waiting I bet if you go a google on "self-taught" and "kayaker" you can read for weeks. I've taught many sports over the years and have yet to find these magically skilled self-taught athletes. I've taught many sports over the years and have found many skilled self-taught athletes. I've also met many pompous blowhards who think their position as coach or teacher should require god-like reverance, because they fail to understand their role is to facilitate the learning of the athlete, not open their brain and pour in their own knowledge like Moses from on high. I've come across lots of folks who can do a mediocre job of imitating the experts but need a lot of work to get good. I've come across many folks (like yourself) who consider themselves experts but have impossibly warped understandings of the learning process. It's interesting to see. On rare occasions, I meet someone, usually an accomplished athlete in another sport, who learns particularly well or quickly from watching others, but that;s not the same as learning, as you say, " experiment, make observations, make adjustuments[sic], and repeat". Too bad you don't understand or experience the world that way. I can't imagine how boring and even frightening life must be if there is nothing you think possible without an "expert" to guide you. So it's about having an experienced person standing by? Once again, you never asked me anything about this. Had you simply said "Don't you think, in a challenging WW environment, that it makes sense to have an experienced person standing by?" I'd have replied in the affirmative. Which goes against your position that one learns adequately on one's own. No, it doesn't in the least. I'm talking about learning without getting professional instruction. I never said you should do everything alone. This is not a debate about going solo. It's about learning - you seem to think people can only learn with professional instruction. I strongly disagree. People learn things all the time without professional instruction, and there is nothing to say they cannot learn better using their own methods than a professional instructor's methods. One need look no further than the last time I clobbered the club tennis instructor. He still doesn't believe I never had professional lessons. You'd probably get along well with him. I beat him worse every time we play - because I experiment, observe, adjust, progress...poor ******* can't figure out why he seems to be getting worse every time we play. Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If so, I'd like to see it. Since it is you who espouses the non-standard view, perhaps you should be the one offereing proof. You constantly insist that self-taught are safer and as good as otherwise, but have never offered one iota of proof. So you are not going to answer the question? I have never insisted or even implied that self-taught is safer. All I have said is that it is entirely possible to learn to kayak well and safely without a professional instructor. Do you disagree? If so: Do you have any evidence to suggest that the rate of injury of self-taught kayakers exceeds that of those who receive "professional instruction?" If so, I'd like to see it. If you refuse to answer yet again, I think it would be fair to assume that you don't have the evidence. |
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