"thunder" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 01:01:01 -0800, chuckgould.chuck wrote:


On topic slant: If the stories about Noah, Gilgamesh, etc etc etc etc are
either true or remotely close to true, then it looks like a whole lot of
mankind is directly descended from.........Boaters! :-)

I'm sure you have heard there is some speculation that the Black Sea
Deluge was "the flood".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-crs/crs-blacksea.html

Could be, but was most likely a tsunami. There are stories in South
American ancient history about a flood. And If there was a large meteorite
hitting the sea, the water could flow over every thing as well as a wobble
of the earths spin from a large impact, causing the seas to flow over the
land. Is one of the suppositions for the reasons we find Woolly Mammoths
flash frozen. Food in the stomach not digested. As well as the coal fields
of Kentucky / VA are all pretty much at the same elevation and took large
piles of organic material to make the coal seams.

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 10:38:26 -0800, "Dene" wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .
On 12 Jan 2006 01:01:01 -0800, wrote:


Calif Bill wrote:
"JohnH" wrote in message
...
On 10 Jan 2006 21:25:43 -0800, wrote:


JimH wrote:
.........rained in Seattle for 24 straight days! Have you
finished
building the Ark yet?

Naw. I think I got the instructions confused. I got lost when I tried
to "go fer" wood, and while my inclination would be to saw it into
planks for some reason ark building requires that one "cube" it.

It has been raining, sometimes hard, for at least some portion of the
last 24 days.
The record is something like 33 days.

My ark will be diesel powered, of course, and fully provisioned for
an
offshore voyage of 40 days and 40 nights. I think a watermaker will
be
essential.

Here's my question (asked of several who have come to my door asking
if I
believed the Bible):

Once you've built your ark, and loaded two of all the animals on
earth
thereon, and spent about two weeks at sea, who cleaned up all the
crap in
the bottom of your ark?

Peggy Hall may have an interest in this also!

--
John H.

"Divide each difficulty into as many parts as is feasible and
necessary to
resolve it."
Rene Descartes

There was a study, or paper one time about just this. They said, since
the
animals would not be able to move much, the metabolism would slow down
and
both reduce intake and output. IMHO, is why they abandoned the ark
high on
a mountain where it is hard to get to. Probably still stinks bad.

Noah pretty well had his fill of that floating zoo. Doesn't the Bible
say that just about the first thing he did after they escaped the ark
was plant a vineyard? Priorities, you know. :-)


On topic slant: If the stories about Noah, Gilgamesh, etc etc etc etc
are either true or remotely close to true, then it looks like a whole
lot of mankind is directly descended from.........Boaters! :-)

More rain today, more forecast for tomorrow. Moving rapidly into second
place for the number of consecutive rainy days in this region since
modern record keeping began.

If Noah had his wits about him, he probably ran the ark with a steam
engine. Lots of water available, and with just a bit of drying out he
would have had plenty of animal "chips" to use for fuel.

I think the Redskins are turning the sprinklers on for their practices.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

Wouldn't surprise me if D.C. gets more annual rain than Seattle. Know for
certain that NYC does....by about 10 inches.

Go Seahawks!!

-Greg


So does DC, but ours tend to come in the way of fast hard rainfalls, not
the continuous drizzle of Seattle.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

"JohnH" wrote in message
...


Wouldn't surprise me if D.C. gets more annual rain than Seattle. Know
for
certain that NYC does....by about 10 inches.

Go Seahawks!!

-Greg


So does DC, but ours tend to come in the way of fast hard rainfalls, not
the continuous drizzle of Seattle.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

Funny how come the Seattle chamber of commerce fails to mention that
distinction.

So....you a Redskin fan?

-Greg

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 14:32:50 -0800, "Dene" wrote:


"JohnH" wrote in message
.. .


Wouldn't surprise me if D.C. gets more annual rain than Seattle. Know
for
certain that NYC does....by about 10 inches.

Go Seahawks!!

-Greg


So does DC, but ours tend to come in the way of fast hard rainfalls, not
the continuous drizzle of Seattle.
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

Funny how come the Seattle chamber of commerce fails to mention that
distinction.

So....you a Redskin fan?

-Greg


Yes, this year!
--
John H

"All decisions are the result of binary thinking."

wrote in message
oups.com...

JimH wrote:
.........rained in Seattle for 24 straight days! Have you finished
building the Ark yet?

Naw. I think I got the instructions confused. I got lost when I tried
to "go fer" wood, and while my inclination would be to saw it into
planks for some reason ark building requires that one "cube" it.

It has been raining, sometimes hard, for at least some portion of the
last 24 days.
The record is something like 33 days.

My ark will be diesel powered, of course, and fully provisioned for an
offshore voyage of 40 days and 40 nights. I think a watermaker will be
essential.


I just heard it has now been 26 straight days.

thunder wrote:
snip
I'm sure you have heard there is some speculation that the Black Sea
Deluge was "the flood".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-crs/crs-blacksea.html

Thunder:
While the article in wikipedia is fairly reliable, the
christian answers url is less so.
In its Summary, there are a couple of mis-uses of terms:

"Summary: Geological evidence obtained through
rock cores ... "

They weren't rock cores, they were sea-bottom mud cores.

" ... indicates the presence of freshwater flora and fauna
beneath the Black Sea, suggesting that this area was once
a smaller freshwater lake."

Actually, that was a brackish-water (half-salty) fauna, and
the flora were terrestrial, not aquatic.

"It has recently been proposed by a few
uniformitarian geoscientists ... "

Actually, they were the opposite: catastrophists.

" ... that prehistoric human communities living adjacent to
this body of water were rapidly displaced when the
Mediterranean overflowed and filled the Black Sea with sal****er."

That last is an accurate description of Ryan's and Pitman's
BSFloode hypothesis, but that speculation has been
tossed onto the refuse heap of scientific misadventure.

Please allow me to grace you with my standard rant
on this subject:


Those who came up with the claim of catastrophic flooding
of the Black Sea have retreated from that claim.
It was based on the "sudden" appearance of salt-water shelly
organisms deep in the Black Sea, but the claimants now agree
that the "sudden" immigration of such shells just marks a change
from freshwater to salty water deep below the surface of the Black
Sea, and didn't involve any change in the level of the surface of
the Black Sea, i.e. it does not mark any "flooding" of the Black
Sea at all. And there is abundant evidence that at the time of
the supposed "BSFlood" the level of the Black Sea was the same as,
or higher than, the level of the Mediterranean Sea (which was
supposed to have broken through an imaginary dam in the Bosphorus
and overflowed into the Black sea basin). Ergo, the Black Sea was
overflowing into the Mediterranean Sea at the time of the supposed
"catastrophic flood", i.e., the water was actually flowing in the
opposite direction.
Ryan and Pitman got it backwards. At best.

ENGAGE RANT MODE

Sorry, there was no sudden flood in the Black Sea basin.
It was all a publicist's dream.

Parts of the modern Black Sea Flood claim are total
fantasy, like the imaginary dam that supposedly broke
7500 years ago. Somebody wrote that down, and suddenly
it was established as a "fact".

The trouble is, altogether too many people have the
mistaken idea that a catastrophic flood in the Black
Sea was the inspiration for the Noah's Flood story in
the Bible.
The TV programs on that topic are outdated and overly
sensational and can be safely ignored.

Sadly, you, and maybe millions of other people,
have been misled on this subject.

Alas, there was no "Noachian" Black Sea Flood, and
the science in William Ryan's and Walter Pitman's book
"Noah's Flood: the event that changed history" has in
several cases been superceded by better information that
indicates that there was no such event, and was in most
cases preceded by evidence that indicated that there was
no such event.
Ryan and Pitman set out to overturn the orthodox view
of the history of the Black Sea, but they have apparently
abandoned their hypothesis, if more recent articles
co-authored by Ryan are any indication.
The orthodox view has prevailed, subject to some recent
modifications.

There is evidence that there was an _outflow_ southward
from the Black Sea through the Bosphorus into the
Mediterranean from more than 10000 years ago
(well before Ryan and Pitman's initial 5600 BCE flood date),
continuously until the present day, though there may have
been a relatively short interruption.
And evidence from the south shore of the Black sea shows
that the level of the Black Sea was only 18 m below the
present level at the time of the supposed flood.
The more recent claim by Ryan puts the flood date at
8400 BP, or about 9000 years ago, but then the "floodwaters"
through the Bosphorus channel would have been only about
5 metres deep. 9000 years ago is when everybody else
always thought that Mediterranean sal****er first entered
the Black Sea. At about that time, the last phase of
Glacial Lake Agassiz, in central Canada, finally found an
outlet to the sea through or under the remnants of the
Laurentide Ice Sheet, and so out into the North Atlantic,
raising sea level an appreciable amount, and _perhaps_
triggering a sudden inflow of sal****er into the Black Sea
basin.
But probably not sudden or great enough to inspire a
Noachian Flood myth.
Better candidates are widespread inundation of low-lying
parts of the Persian Gulf associated with the final draining
of Glacial Lake Agassiz, and similar flooding of the Tigris-
Euphrates delta, and (most likely) simultaneous flooding of
the Tigris and Euphrates, which would have looked like a
flooding of the entire world from the viewpoint of a person
near present-day Baghdad. These candidates could each or all
have inspired the flood myth in the epic of Gilgamesh, which
predates the first known appearance of the Noachian Flood myth.

Check this out, for a layman-friendly synopsis of the
refutation:

http://home.entouch.net/dmd/bseaflod.htm

On the draining of Glacial Lake Agassiz:

http://tinyurl.com/csmaq

And here's a fairly recent news item on refutation of
Ryan's and Pitman's hypothesis:

BEGIN QUOTE
January 14, 2003

Scientists are seriously challenging a recent, fascinating
proposal that Noah's epic story -- setting sail with an ark
jam-full of animal couples -- was based on an actual
catastrophic flood that suddenly filled the Black Sea 7,500
years ago, forcing people to flee.

In a detailed new look at the rocks, sediments, currents
and seashells in and around the Black Sea, an international
research team pooh-poohs the Noah flood idea, arguing that
all the geologic, hydrologic and biologic signs are wrong.

Little that the earth can tell us seems to fit the Noah story,
they say. The new research takes direct aim at the work of
two Columbia University geologists -- William Ryan and Walter
Pitman -- whose proposal in 1997 ignited much new interest,
and much new research, into Middle East history and geology.

END QUOTE

Also, Ballard did not find Noah's House, and he has recently
admitted that he didn't find any evidence of human occupation
of the Black Sea continental shelf, let alone any support for
the BSFlood hypothesis.
Here is another recent news article telling you about that
(please be warned that several statements in the article
are erroneous, e.g.
"Scholars agree the Black Sea flooded when
rising world sea levels caused the Mediterranean to
burst over land and fill the then-freshwater lake."):

"Black Sea Trip Yields No Flood Conclusions"

http://tinyurl.com/eylm8

There was no actual ruined building found by Ballard,
but rather just a partly rectangular outline of raised
bed on the continental shelf, that might even be
the outline of
the wheelhouse of a modern freighter.
To the northwest the outline continues, and narrows to a point.
To the southeast, the outline continues for a shorter distance,
and ends in a rounded curve.
Just what you'd expect when a sunken ship's hull is covered with
sediment.
The wood didn't necessarily contaminate the site, it might have
been part of the ship, and so accurately dates the site.
The roughly-worked stones could have been the ship's ballast.

If you wish, I can supply links to the writeups on Ballard's
finds in professional journals.

And here are a couple of scientific papers:

"Is the abrupt drowning of the Black Sea shelf at
7150 yr BP a myth?"

http://tinyurl.com/blart

"Persistent Holocene Outflow from the Black Sea to the Eastern
Mediterranean Contradicts Noah's Flood Hypothesis"

http://tinyurl.com/65yxu

And there's lots more, but you'd need access to scientific journals
to read it, but you could ask me for more details if you want them.
Some of the articles are available on the Web.

DISENGAGE RANT MODE

Sorry to splash water in the frying pan.

Daryl Krupa