"markvictor" wrote in message
oups.com...
Jeff Rigby wrote:

All correct except the shift engine kill switch SHOULD engage if there is
any resistance disengaging from reverse or forward into neutral.

I agree, but when the control cable and lower shift cable are in good
condition, and adjusted correctly, the only way the clutch is "loaded",
is essentially when underway above nominal idle,or excessive rpms prior
to shifting, thus keeping tension on the clutch dogs.



if the cables are out of adjustment, When trying to engage
from neutral, if the rpm's are too high from premature throttle
opening,the clutch will resist and the interrupt switch is actuated.
When in gear,if the throttle is not closed and rhe RPM's are ,once
again, higher than nominal idle speed, the clutch dogs resist
disengagement, again tripping the interrupt switch...

This resistance (if shift cable is good) comes from the dog gear not
disengaging
because the engine is running faster than the prop. The kill switch
engages
and the motor slows relative to the prop and the gear can disengage.


If the engine is running, and the drive is engaged (in gear) It is
absolutely impossible for the engine to EVER run slower than the
propshaft

OK, got me on terms, I should have said that there is pressure on the dog
gear because the engine is turning the prop against the resistance of the
water. So to be VERY specific, at idle speed there is resistance from the
prop and it WANTS to turn slower but cant because it's in gear. Because of
this the dog gear can not disengage so as you shift from either reverse or
forward into neutral the kill switch momentarilly kills the ignition so that
the engine is NOT putting drive pressure thru the gears on the prop and the
drive gear disengages.

.. A momentary spark interruption does not
stop the engine. If you try to do full throttle direction changes, the
interrupter should move to prevent damage, but in normal operation, the
throttle hits the stop before the shift action proceeds, and the
decelleration of the motor unloads the clutch dogs, and if the boat is
moving, the flow of water over the prop actually aids in unloading
it....

Correct;
This kill switch is not necessarry if you are throttleing back from a plane
and shift into neutral. The prop is trying to turn faster than the engine
because the boat is coming down from speed and the water is turning the prop
faster than the engine. It's also not necessary if your prop is out of the
water because there is no load on the prop/dog gear

Bottom line, the two causes of interrupter activation is
attempting high load shifts, either from too rapid shifting at high rpm
or misadjusted cables, or a simulated shift load caused by resistance
from a damaged cable or possibly a heavily worn selector shaft bushing
and seal.

Correct

wrote:
When the boat is in the water and I
switch the gear shift to neutral, it will NOT go into neutral most of
the time...it just stays at the "no wake" speed but the shifter is in
neutral. I have to shift it back and forth to get it to finally go to
neutral. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The fact that the control handle is in the neutral position but the
clutch is still engaged, is a pretty clear indication that there is not
enough throw on the lower cable. This is often caused by the cable end
on the interrupter bracket being positioned incorrectly in the slot on
the cantilever.. On the v8's and v6's it should be at the bottom of the
slot, but if memory serves me correctly, the 4 cyl. plate is inverted
and the cable should be at the top of the slot. That will increase
throw on the lower cable, and minimize or eliminate any unnecessary
movement of the switch.

If it was a bad cable, or high rpms, it would stall the motor while hunting
back and forth to find neutral.

I did have a bad shift cable that didn't cause symptoms like you'd expect,
I had a shift cable problem where the kill switch was not being engaged and
the outdrive would have problems going into and out of gear. This happened
only in the morning and by warming up the engine (shift cable) the problem
went away. Replacing the shift cable fixed this problem

I also had a bad cable that manifested symptoms that were slightly unusual,
the engine would stall when docking, upon further testing it was extreme
outdrive angles while shifting that caused the stalling (the only time I
used extreme angles (steering) while shifting was when I was docking the
boat). Bending the shift cables by having the outdrive at extreme angles
caused them to bind internally and hang causing the kill switch to stall the
engine. Replacing the shift cable fixed this problem.


trainfan1 wrote:

Yes, it should... not entirely, just enough to shake the clutch dog off
the gear

No, it shouldn't, unless something is wrong...or you're shifting
improperly, such as lock to lock..

Different adjustment.

Of course it is, it's the throttle cable, but that can cause premature
opening of the throttle plate, which in turn causes rpms to increase
prior to gear engagement,which causes increased effort tho engage the
clutch dogs,which should cause the interrupter. to actuate, which
causes the boat to stall, etc etc,...But that's what's supposed to
happen if the throttle opens too soon....

Jeff Rigby wrote:
Probably the shifter cable is bad, your shifter kill switch is not
engaging.

That is when it would engage, if the cable was bad


JIMinFL wrote:
The shift bellow doesn't seal water out of the cable. If the bellow leaks
the boat will take on water. A defective shift shaft bushing is the main
cause for water intrusion into the shift cable

You're absolutely right,,,

"Jeff Rigby" wrote in message
...


JIMinFL wrote:
The shift bellow doesn't seal water out of the cable. If the bellow
leaks
the boat will take on water. A defective shift shaft bushing is the main
cause for water intrusion into the shift cable

You're absolutely right,,,




He usually is when it comes to the Merc outdrives.


Eisboch

This has been a most interesting thread. Thanks!





On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:29:35 -0500, "Jeff Rigby"
wrote:


"markvictor" wrote in message
roups.com...
Jeff Rigby wrote:

All correct except the shift engine kill switch SHOULD engage if there is
any resistance disengaging from reverse or forward into neutral.

I agree, but when the control cable and lower shift cable are in good
condition, and adjusted correctly, the only way the clutch is "loaded",
is essentially when underway above nominal idle,or excessive rpms prior
to shifting, thus keeping tension on the clutch dogs.



if the cables are out of adjustment, When trying to engage
from neutral, if the rpm's are too high from premature throttle
opening,the clutch will resist and the interrupt switch is actuated.
When in gear,if the throttle is not closed and rhe RPM's are ,once
again, higher than nominal idle speed, the clutch dogs resist
disengagement, again tripping the interrupt switch...

This resistance (if shift cable is good) comes from the dog gear not
disengaging
because the engine is running faster than the prop. The kill switch
engages
and the motor slows relative to the prop and the gear can disengage.


If the engine is running, and the drive is engaged (in gear) It is
absolutely impossible for the engine to EVER run slower than the
propshaft

OK, got me on terms, I should have said that there is pressure on the dog
gear because the engine is turning the prop against the resistance of the
water. So to be VERY specific, at idle speed there is resistance from the
prop and it WANTS to turn slower but cant because it's in gear. Because of
this the dog gear can not disengage so as you shift from either reverse or
forward into neutral the kill switch momentarilly kills the ignition so that
the engine is NOT putting drive pressure thru the gears on the prop and the
drive gear disengages.

. A momentary spark interruption does not
stop the engine. If you try to do full throttle direction changes, the
interrupter should move to prevent damage, but in normal operation, the
throttle hits the stop before the shift action proceeds, and the
decelleration of the motor unloads the clutch dogs, and if the boat is
moving, the flow of water over the prop actually aids in unloading
it....

Correct;
This kill switch is not necessarry if you are throttleing back from a plane
and shift into neutral. The prop is trying to turn faster than the engine
because the boat is coming down from speed and the water is turning the prop
faster than the engine. It's also not necessary if your prop is out of the
water because there is no load on the prop/dog gear

Bottom line, the two causes of interrupter activation is
attempting high load shifts, either from too rapid shifting at high rpm
or misadjusted cables, or a simulated shift load caused by resistance
from a damaged cable or possibly a heavily worn selector shaft bushing
and seal.

Correct

wrote:
When the boat is in the water and I
switch the gear shift to neutral, it will NOT go into neutral most of
the time...it just stays at the "no wake" speed but the shifter is in
neutral. I have to shift it back and forth to get it to finally go to
neutral. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The fact that the control handle is in the neutral position but the
clutch is still engaged, is a pretty clear indication that there is not
enough throw on the lower cable. This is often caused by the cable end
on the interrupter bracket being positioned incorrectly in the slot on
the cantilever.. On the v8's and v6's it should be at the bottom of the
slot, but if memory serves me correctly, the 4 cyl. plate is inverted
and the cable should be at the top of the slot. That will increase
throw on the lower cable, and minimize or eliminate any unnecessary
movement of the switch.

If it was a bad cable, or high rpms, it would stall the motor while hunting
back and forth to find neutral.

I did have a bad shift cable that didn't cause symptoms like you'd expect,
I had a shift cable problem where the kill switch was not being engaged and
the outdrive would have problems going into and out of gear. This happened
only in the morning and by warming up the engine (shift cable) the problem
went away. Replacing the shift cable fixed this problem

I also had a bad cable that manifested symptoms that were slightly unusual,
the engine would stall when docking, upon further testing it was extreme
outdrive angles while shifting that caused the stalling (the only time I
used extreme angles (steering) while shifting was when I was docking the
boat). Bending the shift cables by having the outdrive at extreme angles
caused them to bind internally and hang causing the kill switch to stall the
engine. Replacing the shift cable fixed this problem.


trainfan1 wrote:

Yes, it should... not entirely, just enough to shake the clutch dog off
the gear

No, it shouldn't, unless something is wrong...or you're shifting
improperly, such as lock to lock..

Different adjustment.

Of course it is, it's the throttle cable, but that can cause premature
opening of the throttle plate, which in turn causes rpms to increase
prior to gear engagement,which causes increased effort tho engage the
clutch dogs,which should cause the interrupter. to actuate, which
causes the boat to stall, etc etc,...But that's what's supposed to
happen if the throttle opens too soon....

Jeff Rigby wrote:
Probably the shifter cable is bad, your shifter kill switch is not
engaging.

That is when it would engage, if the cable was bad


JIMinFL wrote:
The shift bellow doesn't seal water out of the cable. If the bellow leaks
the boat will take on water. A defective shift shaft bushing is the main
cause for water intrusion into the shift cable

You're absolutely right,,,



--
John H

******Have a spectacular day!******

It's not a brand new alpha, it'a a 7 year old carbureted 4 cyl.. but I
do agree that an answer as to shifting effort would help diagnosis...

EFI? brand new alpha? are you in base timing mode?

sorry guys..down with a cold for a few days. Thanks for all the
replies.

I have no physical difficulty putting it in and out of gear, the
process is actually quite smooth. Occasionally, I do hear the shift
interupter cut the engine for 1/2 second when I take it out of gear.
The engine speed is idled correctly in my opinion...in neutral-on land
it usually tach's at 1200-1500 rpm
Also, when on land and I put it in fwd, I hear gear grinding for 1/2
sec...kinda like I power shifted a car without pushing in the clutch.
I just bought the boat used about 2 months ago and the guy I bought it
from had used it in salt water.

I do not have the manual nor have I ever worked on a boat so have no
idea where the interupter...I guess I get to learn the old fashion
way....by looking for it. anyone have any schematics they can throw my
way.
Trying to prevent from going to a merc dealer....or should i just bite
the bullet?
ps - it is a carb engine
Thank you all again

wrote in message
oups.com...
sorry guys..down with a cold for a few days. Thanks for all the
replies.

I have no physical difficulty putting it in and out of gear, the
process is actually quite smooth. Occasionally, I do hear the shift
interupter cut the engine for 1/2 second when I take it out of gear.
The engine speed is idled correctly in my opinion...in neutral-on land
it usually tach's at 1200-1500 rpm


Way too high. What engine? Idle in neutral, depending on engine, should
be close to 600 RPM if I recall correctly.

Eisboch

markvictor wrote:
EFI? brand new alpha? are you in base timing mode?


Who are you responding to? What are you responding to? Who said EFI?

You're confusing yourself immensley.

Take for example a brand new Alpha 135. Disconnect the interrupter.
Guess what? It wont come out of gear, even at idle(in water, under
way), unless you use the cable and pull the shift lever past neutral
into reverse... then guess what? you're in reverse! From neutral, it'll
go INTO gear all day long no matter how fast you shift & throttle(&
actually, the faster you shift the better for the dog & gears in the
foot - none of that chunka-chunka-chunka-chunka-clunk stuff...).

Makes docking tough.

Now connect the interrupter on our EXAMPLE brand new Alpha 135. Shifts
like a dream(at least as good as a dog clutch leg can)!

You obviously do not understand the need for an interrupter on the Alpha
leg. (135hp is a carb engine)

It's for getting out of gear, in water. Engine running. Period.

Not running, or on the flush muffs, you don't need the interrupter, in
fact it shouldn't even activate... it's action is based on the force
needed to overcome the resistance of a drive working against the water,
the ratcheted clutch dog teeth embedded into the drive gear, which is
the exact problem the OP has.

Now he's telling us the idle is twice as high as it should be, which
compounds the problem - even more force demanded of that lower shift
cable. Without the interrupter, he's headed for a docking, trailering,
or maneuvering disaster.

Rob

trainfan1 wrote:
markvictor wrote:
EFI? brand new alpha? are you in base timing mode?


Who are you responding to? What are you responding to? Who said EFI?

You're confusing yourself immensley.

Take for example a brand new Alpha 135. Disconnect the interrupter.
Guess what? It wont come out of gear, even at idle(in water, under
way), unless you use the cable and pull the shift lever past neutral
into reverse... then guess what? you're in reverse! From neutral, it'll
go INTO gear all day long no matter how fast you shift & throttle(&
actually, the faster you shift the better for the dog & gears in the
foot - none of that chunka-chunka-chunka-chunka-clunk stuff...).

Makes docking tough.

Now connect the interrupter on our EXAMPLE brand new Alpha 135. Shifts
like a dream(at least as good as a dog clutch leg can)!

You obviously do not understand the need for an interrupter on the Alpha
leg. (135hp is a carb engine)

It's for getting out of gear, in water. Engine running. Period.

Not running, or on the flush muffs, you don't need the interrupter, in
fact it shouldn't even activate... it's action is based on the force
needed to overcome the resistance of a drive working against the water,
the ratcheted clutch dog teeth embedded into the drive gear, which is
the exact problem the OP has.

Now he's telling us the idle is twice as high as it should be, which
compounds the problem - even more force demanded of that lower shift
cable. Without the interrupter, he's headed for a docking, trailering,
or maneuvering disaster.

Rob

So like I said, he needs to set the idle correctly and adjust his cable
correctly and that will most likely permit his drive to shift correctly
The only thing confusing me is the the notion that a fixed ratio drive
with a positive engagement clutch can have a change in engine speed
relative to shaft speed while the clutch is engaged...
Immensely only has 2 "e"s

markvictor wrote:

trainfan1 wrote:

markvictor wrote:

EFI? brand new alpha? are you in base timing mode?


Who are you responding to? What are you responding to? Who said EFI?

You're confusing yourself immensley.

Take for example a brand new Alpha 135. Disconnect the interrupter.
Guess what? It wont come out of gear, even at idle(in water, under
way), unless you use the cable and pull the shift lever past neutral
into reverse... then guess what? you're in reverse! From neutral, it'll
go INTO gear all day long no matter how fast you shift & throttle(&
actually, the faster you shift the better for the dog & gears in the
foot - none of that chunka-chunka-chunka-chunka-clunk stuff...).

Makes docking tough.

Now connect the interrupter on our EXAMPLE brand new Alpha 135. Shifts
like a dream(at least as good as a dog clutch leg can)!

You obviously do not understand the need for an interrupter on the Alpha
leg. (135hp is a carb engine)

It's for getting out of gear, in water. Engine running. Period.

Not running, or on the flush muffs, you don't need the interrupter, in
fact it shouldn't even activate... it's action is based on the force
needed to overcome the resistance of a drive working against the water,
the ratcheted clutch dog teeth embedded into the drive gear, which is
the exact problem the OP has.

Now he's telling us the idle is twice as high as it should be, which
compounds the problem - even more force demanded of that lower shift
cable. Without the interrupter, he's headed for a docking, trailering,
or maneuvering disaster.

Rob


So like I said, he needs to set the idle correctly and adjust his cable
correctly and that will most likely permit his drive to shift correctly
The only thing confusing me is the the notion that a fixed ratio drive
with a positive engagement clutch can have a change in engine speed
relative to shaft speed while the clutch is engaged...
Immensely only has 2 "e"s


1st, you are misunderstanding the statement. Water flow over the prop
while decelerating will unload the drivetrain - will try to "push" the
engine - such that the interrupter will not come into play. Gear ratio
has nothing to do with it. This is what is happening to the OP on the
flush muffs, too... no load - no interrupter needed.

2nd, the Alpha clutch dog gears are back-cut and ramped, so that if the
prop is "overturned" it will "skip" teeth. Gear ratio has nothing to do
with it.

http://marineengineparts.com/shopsit...ia/18-2202.jpg

Rob