A question has come up in our local sailing club about the correct, or
at least preferable definition of "the number of boats entered in the
series" wording in Appendix A9 of the RRS.

A typical series consists of 5 or 6 race days spread over a couple of
months. Clearly this falls within the meaning of a series longer than a
regatta. We allow registration to continue right through the series,
although the requirement for trophies demands a certain number of races
are actually sailed. There are several fleets of PHRF boats involved,
and all fleets are scored completely separately. The standard low point
scoring method in Appendix A is used. There are exclusions allowed,
based on the number of races that are conducted.

The question is what score should be given to boats that do not compete
in the earlier races, when the total registration may not yet be complete?

For example, suppose a fleet starts with 10 boats registered, and all 10
boats show up for the first race day. Only 9 boats show up for the
second race day. Now we add two new registrants before the third race
day. For simplification we will just keep that number through the end of
the series.

What is the proper score for the boat that missed the second race? Is it
11 points or 13 points? Does a boat that missed the 4th race get 13
points while the boat that missed the second race gets 11 points? Should
both boats be scored at 13 points?

I have searched various places, and I have found various clubs have
different interpretations. Most, however, appear to say nothing in the
SI's. I have not been able to find anything in US Sailing or ISAF
documents that discusses the topic at all.

I suspect the bottom line is that we simply need to state a reasonable
rule and stick to it. However, I would like to determine if there is
some common standard that I have missed.

Regards,
Gene Fuller

Gene,

The fairest way to my mind is to score DNCs just like a DNS or DSQ. A9 says
that the DNC is number of registrants plus one but that is a really
draconian penalty when a normal long series could have a single race
participation rate of 50% to 70%. A DNS or DSQ, etc. is scored number of
boats that came to the starting area! With 20 boats registered and 10 boats
competing, to score the DNC boat as 21 and the DSQ boat as 11 doesn't seem
to make sense.

If you score the DNC the same as the DNS, then there is no difference when
boats join the series. If you don't, the letter of the law would say that
the original races should be rescored so the DNC boats are further
penalized.

Ed
--
Edward E.L. Mitchell
Web: www.racesail.org
Phone: (239)415-7039
6707 Daniel Court
Fort Myers, FL 33908

"Gene Fuller" wrote in message
...
A question has come up in our local sailing club about the correct, or at
least preferable definition of "the number of boats entered in the series"
wording in Appendix A9 of the RRS.

A typical series consists of 5 or 6 race days spread over a couple of
months. Clearly this falls within the meaning of a series longer than a
regatta. We allow registration to continue right through the series,
although the requirement for trophies demands a certain number of races
are actually sailed. There are several fleets of PHRF boats involved, and
all fleets are scored completely separately. The standard low point
scoring method in Appendix A is used. There are exclusions allowed, based
on the number of races that are conducted.

The question is what score should be given to boats that do not compete in
the earlier races, when the total registration may not yet be complete?

For example, suppose a fleet starts with 10 boats registered, and all 10
boats show up for the first race day. Only 9 boats show up for the second
race day. Now we add two new registrants before the third race day. For
simplification we will just keep that number through the end of the
series.

What is the proper score for the boat that missed the second race? Is it
11 points or 13 points? Does a boat that missed the 4th race get 13 points
while the boat that missed the second race gets 11 points? Should both
boats be scored at 13 points?

I have searched various places, and I have found various clubs have
different interpretations. Most, however, appear to say nothing in the
SI's. I have not been able to find anything in US Sailing or ISAF
documents that discusses the topic at all.

I suspect the bottom line is that we simply need to state a reasonable
rule and stick to it. However, I would like to determine if there is some
common standard that I have missed.

Regards,
Gene Fuller

Hi Ed,

Thanks for your input. The question of "penalty" for failure to show up
is an old one, of course, and different racing environments will
probably be best served with different answers.

I am curious about your last statement regarding "the letter of the
law". I tend to agree that "boats entered" means all boats that entered
over the entire length of the series. Some in our club disagree,
believing the "boats entered" is a week-by-week floating number. Do have
have any reference for "the letter of the law" other than ordinary
interpretation of the English language?

In practical terms this entire matter is not a huge deal for us. We
allow some score exclusions, so for most boats who receive one or two
DNC scores it simply does not matter. In virtually no case is any boat
still holding DNC scores after the exclusions in contention for any
series awards.

Regards,
Gene Fuller


Edward Mitchell wrote:
Gene,

The fairest way to my mind is to score DNCs just like a DNS or DSQ. A9 says
that the DNC is number of registrants plus one but that is a really
draconian penalty when a normal long series could have a single race
participation rate of 50% to 70%. A DNS or DSQ, etc. is scored number of
boats that came to the starting area! With 20 boats registered and 10 boats
competing, to score the DNC boat as 21 and the DSQ boat as 11 doesn't seem
to make sense.

If you score the DNC the same as the DNS, then there is no difference when
boats join the series. If you don't, the letter of the law would say that
the original races should be rescored so the DNC boats are further
penalized.

Ed
--
Edward E.L. Mitchell
Web: www.racesail.org
Phone: (239)415-7039
6707 Daniel Court
Fort Myers, FL 33908

"Gene Fuller" wrote in message
...

A question has come up in our local sailing club about the correct, or at
least preferable definition of "the number of boats entered in the series"
wording in Appendix A9 of the RRS.

A typical series consists of 5 or 6 race days spread over a couple of
months. Clearly this falls within the meaning of a series longer than a
regatta. We allow registration to continue right through the series,
although the requirement for trophies demands a certain number of races
are actually sailed. There are several fleets of PHRF boats involved, and
all fleets are scored completely separately. The standard low point
scoring method in Appendix A is used. There are exclusions allowed, based
on the number of races that are conducted.

The question is what score should be given to boats that do not compete in
the earlier races, when the total registration may not yet be complete?

For example, suppose a fleet starts with 10 boats registered, and all 10
boats show up for the first race day. Only 9 boats show up for the second
race day. Now we add two new registrants before the third race day. For
simplification we will just keep that number through the end of the
series.

What is the proper score for the boat that missed the second race? Is it
11 points or 13 points? Does a boat that missed the 4th race get 13 points
while the boat that missed the second race gets 11 points? Should both
boats be scored at 13 points?

I have searched various places, and I have found various clubs have
different interpretations. Most, however, appear to say nothing in the
SI's. I have not been able to find anything in US Sailing or ISAF
documents that discusses the topic at all.

I suspect the bottom line is that we simply need to state a reasonable
rule and stick to it. However, I would like to determine if there is some
common standard that I have missed.

Regards,
Gene Fuller

If you use a scoring programme such as Sailwave, it will automatically
update DNC to `no. of competitors' + 1, with no. of competitors adjusted as
the series goes on. This is the general interpretation of a `long series'.

Thus a boat that missed the 2nd race ultimately gets 13 points in your
example, but may initially be allocated 11 points in preliminary results.

--
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Benoni, South Africa

"Gene Fuller" wrote in message
...
A question has come up in our local sailing club about the correct, or at
least preferable definition of "the number of boats entered in the series"
wording in Appendix A9 of the RRS.

A typical series consists of 5 or 6 race days spread over a couple of
months. Clearly this falls within the meaning of a series longer than a
regatta. We allow registration to continue right through the series,
although the requirement for trophies demands a certain number of races
are actually sailed. There are several fleets of PHRF boats involved, and
all fleets are scored completely separately. The standard low point
scoring method in Appendix A is used. There are exclusions allowed, based
on the number of races that are conducted.

The question is what score should be given to boats that do not compete in
the earlier races, when the total registration may not yet be complete?

For example, suppose a fleet starts with 10 boats registered, and all 10
boats show up for the first race day. Only 9 boats show up for the second
race day. Now we add two new registrants before the third race day. For
simplification we will just keep that number through the end of the
series.

What is the proper score for the boat that missed the second race? Is it
11 points or 13 points? Does a boat that missed the 4th race get 13 points
while the boat that missed the second race gets 11 points? Should both
boats be scored at 13 points?

I have searched various places, and I have found various clubs have
different interpretations. Most, however, appear to say nothing in the
SI's. I have not been able to find anything in US Sailing or ISAF
documents that discusses the topic at all.

I suspect the bottom line is that we simply need to state a reasonable
rule and stick to it. However, I would like to determine if there is some
common standard that I have missed.

Regards,
Gene Fuller

Hi Malcolm,

Thanks. That is the way I would perform the calculations as well.

Regards,
Gene Fuller



Malcolm Osborne wrote:
If you use a scoring programme such as Sailwave, it will automatically
update DNC to `no. of competitors' + 1, with no. of competitors adjusted as
the series goes on. This is the general interpretation of a `long series'.

Thus a boat that missed the 2nd race ultimately gets 13 points in your
example, but may initially be allocated 11 points in preliminary results.

Gene,

I don't have any other info beyond what is written in A9. On rereading
this, I suppose it depends on when a race is scored. If you consider the
races to be run and then scored all at one time at the end, then clearly the
DNC penalty is final number of registrants.

If you consider the race is scored and the results then frozen on the day
the race took place, then the current number of registrants would hold.

RaceSail only has one slot for number of registrants so as the number grows
all the old races are rescored using the latest number. However, race
results can be frozen (by converting a race into a group) so that the
cumulative effect could be modelled. Like you, I think that the DNC results
don't really influence the results provided there are sufficient discards
allowed. They certainly provide a strong incentive for participation in the
last few races.

Ed

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Fuller"
Newsgroups: rec.boats.racing
Sent: Monday, April 10, 2006 6:42 PM
Subject: Boats entered in a series


Hi Ed,

Thanks for your input. The question of "penalty" for failure to show up is
an old one, of course, and different racing environments will probably be
best served with different answers.

I am curious about your last statement regarding "the letter of the law".
I tend to agree that "boats entered" means all boats that entered over the
entire length of the series. Some in our club disagree, believing the
"boats entered" is a week-by-week floating number. Do have have any
reference for "the letter of the law" other than ordinary interpretation
of the English language?

In practical terms this entire matter is not a huge deal for us. We allow
some score exclusions, so for most boats who receive one or two DNC scores
it simply does not matter. In virtually no case is any boat still holding
DNC scores after the exclusions in contention for any series awards.

Regards,
Gene Fuller


Edward Mitchell wrote:
Gene,

The fairest way to my mind is to score DNCs just like a DNS or DSQ. A9
says that the DNC is number of registrants plus one but that is a really
draconian penalty when a normal long series could have a single race
participation rate of 50% to 70%. A DNS or DSQ, etc. is scored number of
boats that came to the starting area! With 20 boats registered and 10
boats competing, to score the DNC boat as 21 and the DSQ boat as 11
doesn't seem to make sense.

If you score the DNC the same as the DNS, then there is no difference
when boats join the series. If you don't, the letter of the law would
say that the original races should be rescored so the DNC boats are
further penalized.

Ed
--
Edward E.L. Mitchell
Web: www.racesail.org
Phone: (239)415-7039
6707 Daniel Court
Fort Myers, FL 33908

"Gene Fuller" wrote in message
...

A question has come up in our local sailing club about the correct, or at
least preferable definition of "the number of boats entered in the
series" wording in Appendix A9 of the RRS.

A typical series consists of 5 or 6 race days spread over a couple of
months. Clearly this falls within the meaning of a series longer than a
regatta. We allow registration to continue right through the series,
although the requirement for trophies demands a certain number of races
are actually sailed. There are several fleets of PHRF boats involved, and
all fleets are scored completely separately. The standard low point
scoring method in Appendix A is used. There are exclusions allowed, based
on the number of races that are conducted.

The question is what score should be given to boats that do not compete
in the earlier races, when the total registration may not yet be
complete?

For example, suppose a fleet starts with 10 boats registered, and all 10
boats show up for the first race day. Only 9 boats show up for the second
race day. Now we add two new registrants before the third race day. For
simplification we will just keep that number through the end of the
series.

What is the proper score for the boat that missed the second race? Is it
11 points or 13 points? Does a boat that missed the 4th race get 13
points while the boat that missed the second race gets 11 points? Should
both boats be scored at 13 points?

I have searched various places, and I have found various clubs have
different interpretations. Most, however, appear to say nothing in the
SI's. I have not been able to find anything in US Sailing or ISAF
documents that discusses the topic at all.

I suspect the bottom line is that we simply need to state a reasonable
rule and stick to it. However, I would like to determine if there is some
common standard that I have missed.

Regards,
Gene Fuller