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#11
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![]() RCE wrote: .. According to him, 6000 hours on these engines has just about broken them in. Most problems are associated with the bolt-ons. RCE These engines can run 10's of thousands of hours in applications like 24/7 power generators, and 6000 hours wouldn't be unusual for a commercial fish boat. Due to the differeneces in frequency of operation, long down times with dirty oil festering in the crankcase, etc etc etc it would be really unusual to realize a commercial duty longevity in a pleasure boat application. Just because some people will live to be 105 doesn't mean that every 75 year old should absolutely count on doing so. :-) In the case of this DeFever, the price is depressed in part due to a perceived "risk" of a 6000 hour boat. Buyers are going to be skeptical, and rightly so. All the people who say, "Don't worry, she's got years and years and years left in her" will do nothing more then express surprise when something does break loose and it is the new owner who will be footing the entire bill. Let's say nothing major went wrong, jps ran the boat for 10 years and then decided to sell a 38 year old boat with 7400 engine hours.........good luck! The good news with this boat is that if it's available for $75k, $80k, or even up to the $100k asking price there's a potential (depending on the condition of other systems and cosmetics) for the value to increase by about as much as it would take to repower. Most of the time a buyer going into a boat that needs to be repowered doesn't expect that to be the case and only discovers after it's too late that he needs to spend another big pile of dough. My impression is that the market has discounted this boat for something- and the most obvious suspect without an inspection has to be the engine hours. The boat may not be sale-proof at $100k, but up in the middle huns where you find boats of similar age with half the engine hours it probably is. We can be pretty sure the seller didn't start off at $100k, and that the current pricing is the latest step in a series of measures (that included moving the boat from FLA to the PAC NW?) to try to find the "spot" in the marketplace where the perceived value at least slightly exceeds the price demanded and it becomes more likely that a buyer will appear. |
#12
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#13
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#14
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RCE wrote:
. According to him, 6000 hours on these engines has just about broken them in. Most problems are associated with the bolt-ons. And poor maintenance. But you're right, if these engines haven't been abused then 6k hours is no problem at all. An oil analysis would tell much of the story quickly and cheaply; in the absence of at least that much data then specualting about whether it needs repowering is kind of pointless. The 120 is my least favorite Lehman, it's big & noisy and has the older style injector pump that needs regular user service. We have the Lehman 135 which is a jewel of an engine. We have 2200 hours and the engine's biggest problem is that it doesn't get run enough. With the care that I take of it (well within the skills of the average person) I expect that they will get to 10k hours with no major work says... ... In the case of this DeFever, the price is depressed in part due to a perceived "risk" of a 6000 hour boat. Buyers are going to be skeptical, and rightly so. It's not the engines they should be skeptical of, it's the rest of the boat. ... All the people who say, "Don't worry, she's got years and years and years left in her" will do nothing more then express surprise when something does break loose and it is the new owner who will be footing the entire bill. Let's say nothing major went wrong, jps ran the boat for 10 years and then decided to sell a 38 year old boat with 7400 engine hours.........good luck! You can sell anything if the price is right... and *that* is the reason for the price depression IMHO, plus the common perception that a boat like this will be a fuel hog. My impression is that the market has discounted this boat for something- and the most obvious suspect without an inspection has to be the engine hours. The boat may not be sale-proof at $100k, but up in the middle huns where you find boats of similar age with half the engine hours it probably is. We can be pretty sure the seller didn't start off at $100k, and that the current pricing is the latest step in a series of measures (that included moving the boat from FLA to the PAC NW?) to try to find the "spot" in the marketplace where the perceived value at least slightly exceeds the price demanded and it becomes more likely that a buyer will appear. I also wonder if it's just beat-up looking and not particularly well equipped. It could be a "bad first impression" boat. jps wrote: Completely agree. If the rest of the boat is in decent condition and engine replacement is the only big issue, the boat could still be had at a reasonable value with fresh engines. Obviously, there's lots else that can require attention in a 25+ year old boat. Very much so. In fact if the figures being quoted on engine replacement are accurate, you can count on spending at least much on other stuff the boat will need. Shucks, a good set of dock lines for this boat will cost a couple hundred. New cushions? Canvas? Ground tackle? Battery bank & smart charger? Inverter (plus some professional wiring work)? The most recent addition we made to our boat is a bow thruster, which I installed myself and am very pleased with. It cost in the neighborhood of 4 boat units; getting it "professionally" installed would have cost twice that. Of course, a boat with twins won't need a bow thruster (actually we didn't really "need" one) but you get the idea. I'm not yet convinced that another sundeck or flush deck style vessel is in order, given the aft line handling and boarding challenges they present. The length is about right but I'm pretty convinced the next vessel will have a cockpit along with diesel engines. Why would you not have diesels in a heavy inboard-powered vessel? There is an excellent book which I highly recommend on weighing the factors in choosing a cruising power boat: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/sit...935312-9318226 Fair Skies- Doug King |
#16
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jps wrote:
This is my first foray into diesel engines. I have a long relationship with gas engines and figured that'd serve me well in keeping costs down. It proved to be true. Sure. Gas engines are more power for the weight but they don't last as long and they don't get the fuel economy. The savings of a gas engine goes away when you buy a new one. I wonder if this familiarity with gas engines is why you think a diesel is prime for replacement at 6k hours? Of course you're very sensible to be concerned about the condition of the engine(s) when shopping for a boat, no matter what type. ... The big block Tolly I bought was $30K less than a comparably equipped diesel model and I wasn't going to (and didn't) cruise enough to justify the additional cost. Now, with fuel nearly 3X the price, that's no longer an option. Yep, changed the equation for considering repowering gas, too. I'm skeptical of the whole boat, no matter the age, care, etc. One has to be thorough when making these sorts of decisions. Which is only right & smart... even with good care stuff on boats tends to break down. ....plus the common perception that a boat like this will be a fuel hog. Please expound. Engine model? Hull design? Twins? Combination of size, hull design, twins. This is a heavy boat, not a slippery shape. I also wonder if it's just beat-up looking and not particularly well equipped. It could be a "bad first impression" boat. Probably needs cosmetic things. The equipment list is extensive. And should be regarded in the same sceptical slant as the engines. Was the equipment chosen well for the service, or is it undersized (or skimpy in some other spec)? Was it installed correctly? When my wife & I were boat shopping, about half the boats we looked at had very fancy charger/inverters & monitors that were fried (probably within moments of when first turned on) and inoperable, with installation problems that were obvious with very nominal inspection. For example, the air conditioner on our boat worked very poorly until I ferreted out 3 problems with the way it was installed... all of which were clearly spelled out in the manual. Now it functions pretty well but it took me a couple days worth of detective work. We got lucky on that one. It can be satisfying work to replace/upgrade old boat equipment, but it's an expensive hobby and it eats into your cruising time. Why would you not have diesels in a heavy inboard-powered vessel? As stated above. Difference in initial cost, deep knowledge of gas engines, fuel costs not being the same factor. The Tolly gets approx. 1nm/gal at an easy cruise of 2650-2700 rpm with its BB 454s. At what speed? What's the boat's displacement? We burn approx a gallon every 3 ~ 5 nm but we're going pretty slow (8 knots or less) in a ~10 ton 36 footer. I met with Chuck before buying the Tolly in 2000. In fact, he showed me a couple of examples but I ended up finding the one I wanted in a boathouse in Canada. After going through the process of considering how, where, how many, etc. I thought I'd made a good decision. If fuel prices would've stayed reasonable, my decision still would have held. Oh well. You could always repower that Tolly with diesels. It's been done, and brings some benefits like greater range. Heck if you're really worried about fuel prices, get a sailboat! ![]() Fair Skies Doug King |
#17
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#18
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Combination of size, hull design, twins. This is a heavy
boat, not a slippery shape. jps wrote: Hull speed is hull speed, no? No. Displacement and hull shape counts for a lot. It can be satisfying work to replace/upgrade old boat equipment, but it's an expensive hobby and it eats into your cruising time. Cruising is just working on your boat in exotic locations. Why the hell would you want to own a boat if you didn't like working on it? My bliss is in working on things. Boats are just about the coolest things to work on that I can think of (or the grammatically correct "of which I can think" but it just doesn't sound right in context). Oh, I like working on my boat just fine. I've had enough of it at the moment, and not enough of riding around in it. Spending weeks & weeks of time and thousands of dollars fixing something that ain't broke is trending away from "hobby" and closer to "mental illness." As stated above. Difference in initial cost, deep knowledge of gas engines, fuel costs not being the same factor. The Tolly gets approx. 1nm/gal at an easy cruise of 2650-2700 rpm with its BB 454s. At what speed? What's the boat's displacement? 12 kts approx. Hmmm, I pictured you going faster. But that's not bad. We burn approx a gallon every 3 ~ 5 nm but we're going pretty slow (8 knots or less) in a ~10 ton 36 footer. Single screw? Yes. More fuel efficient, less maintenance. I met with Chuck before buying the Tolly in 2000. In fact, he showed me a couple of examples but I ended up finding the one I wanted in a boathouse in Canada. After going through the process of considering how, where, how many, etc. I thought I'd made a good decision. If fuel prices would've stayed reasonable, my decision still would have held. Oh well. You could always repower that Tolly with diesels. It's been done, and brings some benefits like greater range. Thought about it but, if I did it I'd pick up one of the 44' Tollys with the cockpit. They delivered quite a few with gas engines but they were set up to take either gas or diesel. Once the customer made a decision, they'd drop in one or the other... Nice boats. There used to be one at our marina. Heck if you're really worried about fuel prices, get a sailboat! ![]() Believe me, if I had any inclination towards sailing, I'd be there in a heartbeat. Grew up a stinkpotter. Like going out in good weather. Don't understand being excited about ****y, windy weather. That's the time to be comfortably warm and watching mother nature from indoors at a secure anchorage or dock. Windy, yes. Hell yes! ****y? "Bad weather" is relative. I had a blast in 30 knot winds and pretty big waves. In a power boat it would have been no fun at all... couldn't go as fast, for one thing! DSK |
#19
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#20
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Displacement and hull shape counts for a lot.
jps wrote: Yes, of course. Don't know what I was thinking...evidently I weren't. One of the coolest "trawlers" I have seen is a former heavy-displacement type sailboat that had the mast shortened to about 20', half the ballast keel sawed off, and a hard top over the cockpit. Comfy and capable, got quite good fuel economy. Spending weeks & weeks of time and thousands of dollars fixing something that ain't broke is trending away from "hobby" and closer to "mental illness." I don't go there. If it ain't broke and it's expensive in either time or BUs, call it good. I just get carried away upgrading things. Most have been definite & worthwhile improvements. When there's nothing to worry about, I still like tinkering with smaller things to improve them. I'll get there. Right now I'm still tinkering with the big things, and trying to keep everything as clean as possible. Single screw? Yes. More fuel efficient, less maintenance. Are you concerned about get-home power in the event of a failure? Nope. 99% of engine failures are due to either bad/no fuel, or dead batteries. A second engine is no help in those circumstances, and a "get-home" engine is usually a bad compromise and gets skipped on maintenance so it's actually *less* reliable than the main. My "get-home" plan in the event of main engine failure is to stay put while I fix the damn thing. And with the full maintenance effort devoted to just one engine, I feel that it's far more reliable than twins anyway. DSK |
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