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#1
posted to rec.boats
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E-Tec problems series 1
The E-Tec range of OB engines are now getting sold in numbers into
various markets & their ads are a total pain. So some anti-ads are in order. In our opinion E-Tec have the potential to be an even bigger consumer disaster than the first time when they were called Ficht & marketed in the main by the same dealers/riggers who were then placarded OMC. The reasons for holding my opinions of what we say are E-Tecs design & other problems are many, too many for one short NG post, they fall into numerous categories any one of which, on it's own, is reason enough to stay well away from them. (i) The basic concept of running internal combustion engines with lean mixtures at power, as opposed to overrun (doesn't happen in boats:-)),idle or high speed very light throttle cruise (again doesn't happen in boats). (ii) The Direct Fuel Injection (DFI)into the combustion chamber (DFI) (iii) The fuel injector nozzle. (iv) The fuel injector (v) The oiling system (vi) The ignition system. (vii) The engine displacements. (viii) The latest version changes. (ix) The "potential" for union labour to be used to build them. (x) The "potential" way the manufacture is funded (xi) The dealers/suppliers involved & the way/amounts they get paid (xii) The marketing claims (xiii) The warranty. (xiv) Common sense. I'll make a series of posts dealing with each category & if needs be sub category. Needless to say, similarly I tried to warn you through this NG about our "opinions" that Ficht would fail, "before" it had become the disaster it did. I was viciously & personally attached in this NG by those mostly with a vested interest in selling/supporting known defective Ficht engines to consumers. The dealers of course, the union thugs who had the undeclared invested interest in the funding of OMC & a gaggle of sad simpletons who, despite ample warnings in this NG, had fallen into buying one & could only try to deny the obvious to save some value to their boats & pride to there ego. Alas all sunk along with OMC when it fetched up on Ficht reef. Save one true fool who went the next step & just kept claiming he had bought another one every time the subject came up, which would make him the most stupid person ever into rec.boats, a seriously sad thing given some of the simpletons we've had & still have here over the years:-) It's very possible he's just making it up about buying more of them because if he had, I doubt his brain stem would even support cardiac functions & remember a heart continues to beat even outside the body. So the first subject is running engines at power while lean & I say; It's a much researched & experimented with idea, almost since IC "petrol" engines were invented & thus far all attempts by big (Chrysler, Honda etc) & small (OMC) have failed outright. Most didn't claim to be able to run engines actually "lean" but all claimed they were clever enough to know that can't be done (after all the same rules apply to the shuttle), yet they claimed to have miraculously just "found" a way to stratify the mixture within the combustion chamber. The claims of having a "stratified" charge (i.e. the correct mixture at the spark plug but no fuel anywhere else in the chamber) proved to be just fanciful dreaming. Even the slightest fuel that doesn't get ignited in a continuous flame front from the initial spark will result in it auto igniting once the initial "stratified" charge has increased the chamber temp/pressure past 230C. All attempts cost the manufacturers & in OMCs case killed the Co outright. Only gases burn, no liquids no matter how flammable they are, actually "burn", all liquids that can burn only do so once they're fully vapourised. It's the vapour that allows oxygen to be available to support the combustion. Most flammable fuels have a mixture range in which it's possible to sustain combustion, ie if the mixture is too fuel lean then the vapour is so thinly disbursed with air that a flame front can't advance quickly enough to consume the charge, or if it's too fuel rich then the vapour does not allow enough air (oxygen) to be available to sustain the combustion process. Simple enough to prove when the older engines that had a mixture screw on the idle circuit of the carburetor, too lean & it stalled too rich & it stalled. Or if you "flood" an engine (too rich) there is raw fuel in the plugs so no ignition. Lean at power is a big problem, as said the flame front cannot be guaranteed to travel at a predictable & known speed because it isn't uniformly carried in the chamber. This means that the slow burn allows excessive heat to buildup in the combustion chamber so that the the remaining un-ignited pockets of fuel can auto ignite. Petrol vapour will auto ignite if it is in contact with anything having a temp above about 230C. This is the basic problem with trying to run any combustion process in a closed chamber with a fuel air mixture already captive in the chamber, the burn will proceed once originally ignited very quickly. With E-Tec they won't tell anyone just how lean the mixture is that they're trying to run at up to close to 2000 rpm, (when a large OB is making large amounts of power & therefore heat) but given that when OMC released Ficht we couldn't shut the lying dealers up about how they run the Ficht engines are mixtures of 40-1 & also looking at the "claimed" fuel savings in the E-Tec marketing being run by the dealers it's pretty clear they are at least as lean as 40-1 but given the new EPA regs since Ficht maybe even leaner. Regardless this is dangerously lean as proven with the reliability of the Fichts:-) Once the combustion chamber can buildup enough heat such that any part of it exceeds 230C then autoignition of the remaining air fuel charge will occur which is generally called detonation. Once detonation commences the extreme pressure peaks create even more chamber heat & the process becomes self sustaining, indeed such that even if the mixture is then richened the detonation will continue or commence or get worse because the hot chamber just auto ignites the charge. So the very idea of running very lean mixtures at power is proven to be a failure & as you'll see in the following of the series E-Tec well know it but as with past failed attempts claim they can run their charge "stratified" i.e. they place the minimal fuel around the spark plug so even though the burn is totally out of control, it will all be consumed not leaving enough residual (called end gases) to create detonation. K Of course the E-Tec series will need to also include a Krause lie or a loony Tom paste:-) & the Krause lie for today is his Vietnam lie, the one he concocted when in a fit of jealousy that John was a true patriot & served his country like a real man, while socialist scum like Krause cowed behind their lies back in the safety of their unions. Just to make your day, not only was I a civilian employee in SE Asia, it was in Vietnam, it was during the war against Vietnam, I did see some horrific sights and I was working at the time for a U.S. general. Is that straightforward enough for you, John, or is your amoeba still chasing your synapse |
#2
posted to rec.boats
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E-Tec problems series 1
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:24:00 +1000, "K. Smith" wrote:
The E-Tec range of OB engines are now getting sold in numbers into various markets & their ads are a total pain. So some anti-ads are in order. In our opinion E-Tec have the potential to be an even bigger consumer disaster than the first time when they were called Ficht & marketed in the main by the same dealers/riggers who were then placarded OMC. The reasons for holding my opinions of what we say are E-Tecs design & other problems are many, too many for one short NG post, they fall into numerous categories any one of which, on it's own, is reason enough to stay well away from them. (i) The basic concept of running internal combustion engines with lean mixtures at power, as opposed to overrun (doesn't happen in boats:-)),idle or high speed very light throttle cruise (again doesn't happen in boats). (ii) The Direct Fuel Injection (DFI)into the combustion chamber (DFI) (iii) The fuel injector nozzle. (iv) The fuel injector (v) The oiling system (vi) The ignition system. (vii) The engine displacements. (viii) The latest version changes. (ix) The "potential" for union labour to be used to build them. (x) The "potential" way the manufacture is funded (xi) The dealers/suppliers involved & the way/amounts they get paid (xii) The marketing claims (xiii) The warranty. (xiv) Common sense. I'll make a series of posts dealing with each category & if needs be sub category. Needless to say, similarly I tried to warn you through this NG about our "opinions" that Ficht would fail, "before" it had become the disaster it did. I was viciously & personally attached in this NG by those mostly with a vested interest in selling/supporting known defective Ficht engines to consumers. The dealers of course, the union thugs who had the undeclared invested interest in the funding of OMC & a gaggle of sad simpletons who, despite ample warnings in this NG, had fallen into buying one & could only try to deny the obvious to save some value to their boats & pride to there ego. Alas all sunk along with OMC when it fetched up on Ficht reef. Save one true fool who went the next step & just kept claiming he had bought another one every time the subject came up, which would make him the most stupid person ever into rec.boats, a seriously sad thing given some of the simpletons we've had & still have here over the years:-) It's very possible he's just making it up about buying more of them because if he had, I doubt his brain stem would even support cardiac functions & remember a heart continues to beat even outside the body. So the first subject is running engines at power while lean & I say; It's a much researched & experimented with idea, almost since IC "petrol" engines were invented & thus far all attempts by big (Chrysler, Honda etc) & small (OMC) have failed outright. Most didn't claim to be able to run engines actually "lean" but all claimed they were clever enough to know that can't be done (after all the same rules apply to the shuttle), yet they claimed to have miraculously just "found" a way to stratify the mixture within the combustion chamber. The claims of having a "stratified" charge (i.e. the correct mixture at the spark plug but no fuel anywhere else in the chamber) proved to be just fanciful dreaming. Even the slightest fuel that doesn't get ignited in a continuous flame front from the initial spark will result in it auto igniting once the initial "stratified" charge has increased the chamber temp/pressure past 230C. All attempts cost the manufacturers & in OMCs case killed the Co outright. Only gases burn, no liquids no matter how flammable they are, actually "burn", all liquids that can burn only do so once they're fully vapourised. It's the vapour that allows oxygen to be available to support the combustion. Most flammable fuels have a mixture range in which it's possible to sustain combustion, ie if the mixture is too fuel lean then the vapour is so thinly disbursed with air that a flame front can't advance quickly enough to consume the charge, or if it's too fuel rich then the vapour does not allow enough air (oxygen) to be available to sustain the combustion process. Simple enough to prove when the older engines that had a mixture screw on the idle circuit of the carburetor, too lean & it stalled too rich & it stalled. Or if you "flood" an engine (too rich) there is raw fuel in the plugs so no ignition. Lean at power is a big problem, as said the flame front cannot be guaranteed to travel at a predictable & known speed because it isn't uniformly carried in the chamber. This means that the slow burn allows excessive heat to buildup in the combustion chamber so that the the remaining un-ignited pockets of fuel can auto ignite. Petrol vapour will auto ignite if it is in contact with anything having a temp above about 230C. This is the basic problem with trying to run any combustion process in a closed chamber with a fuel air mixture already captive in the chamber, the burn will proceed once originally ignited very quickly. With E-Tec they won't tell anyone just how lean the mixture is that they're trying to run at up to close to 2000 rpm, (when a large OB is making large amounts of power & therefore heat) but given that when OMC released Ficht we couldn't shut the lying dealers up about how they run the Ficht engines are mixtures of 40-1 & also looking at the "claimed" fuel savings in the E-Tec marketing being run by the dealers it's pretty clear they are at least as lean as 40-1 but given the new EPA regs since Ficht maybe even leaner. Regardless this is dangerously lean as proven with the reliability of the Fichts:-) Once the combustion chamber can buildup enough heat such that any part of it exceeds 230C then autoignition of the remaining air fuel charge will occur which is generally called detonation. Once detonation commences the extreme pressure peaks create even more chamber heat & the process becomes self sustaining, indeed such that even if the mixture is then richened the detonation will continue or commence or get worse because the hot chamber just auto ignites the charge. So the very idea of running very lean mixtures at power is proven to be a failure & as you'll see in the following of the series E-Tec well know it but as with past failed attempts claim they can run their charge "stratified" i.e. they place the minimal fuel around the spark plug so even though the burn is totally out of control, it will all be consumed not leaving enough residual (called end gases) to create detonation. K Of course the E-Tec series will need to also include a Krause lie or a loony Tom paste:-) & the Krause lie for today is his Vietnam lie, the one he concocted when in a fit of jealousy that John was a true patriot & served his country like a real man, while socialist scum like Krause cowed behind their lies back in the safety of their unions. Just to make your day, not only was I a civilian employee in SE Asia, it was in Vietnam, it was during the war against Vietnam, I did see some horrific sights and I was working at the time for a U.S. general. Is that straightforward enough for you, John, or is your amoeba still chasing your synapse The stuff at the end detracts from what was an interesting post. Show us your series, but the personal attack stuff will just ensure you get personal attacks in response instead of on-subject debate. Please? |
#3
posted to rec.boats
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E-Tec problems series 1
JohnH wrote:
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:24:00 +1000, "K. Smith" wrote: The E-Tec range of OB engines are now getting sold in numbers into various markets & their ads are a total pain. So some anti-ads are in order. In our opinion E-Tec have the potential to be an even bigger consumer disaster than the first time when they were called Ficht & marketed in the main by the same dealers/riggers who were then placarded OMC. The reasons for holding my opinions of what we say are E-Tecs design & other problems are many, too many for one short NG post, they fall into numerous categories any one of which, on it's own, is reason enough to stay well away from them. (i) The basic concept of running internal combustion engines with lean mixtures at power, as opposed to overrun (doesn't happen in boats:-)),idle or high speed very light throttle cruise (again doesn't happen in boats). (ii) The Direct Fuel Injection (DFI)into the combustion chamber (DFI) (iii) The fuel injector nozzle. (iv) The fuel injector (v) The oiling system (vi) The ignition system. (vii) The engine displacements. (viii) The latest version changes. (ix) The "potential" for union labour to be used to build them. (x) The "potential" way the manufacture is funded (xi) The dealers/suppliers involved & the way/amounts they get paid (xii) The marketing claims (xiii) The warranty. (xiv) Common sense. I'll make a series of posts dealing with each category & if needs be sub category. Needless to say, similarly I tried to warn you through this NG about our "opinions" that Ficht would fail, "before" it had become the disaster it did. I was viciously & personally attached in this NG by those mostly with a vested interest in selling/supporting known defective Ficht engines to consumers. The dealers of course, the union thugs who had the undeclared invested interest in the funding of OMC & a gaggle of sad simpletons who, despite ample warnings in this NG, had fallen into buying one & could only try to deny the obvious to save some value to their boats & pride to there ego. Alas all sunk along with OMC when it fetched up on Ficht reef. Save one true fool who went the next step & just kept claiming he had bought another one every time the subject came up, which would make him the most stupid person ever into rec.boats, a seriously sad thing given some of the simpletons we've had & still have here over the years:-) It's very possible he's just making it up about buying more of them because if he had, I doubt his brain stem would even support cardiac functions & remember a heart continues to beat even outside the body. So the first subject is running engines at power while lean & I say; It's a much researched & experimented with idea, almost since IC "petrol" engines were invented & thus far all attempts by big (Chrysler, Honda etc) & small (OMC) have failed outright. Most didn't claim to be able to run engines actually "lean" but all claimed they were clever enough to know that can't be done (after all the same rules apply to the shuttle), yet they claimed to have miraculously just "found" a way to stratify the mixture within the combustion chamber. The claims of having a "stratified" charge (i.e. the correct mixture at the spark plug but no fuel anywhere else in the chamber) proved to be just fanciful dreaming. Even the slightest fuel that doesn't get ignited in a continuous flame front from the initial spark will result in it auto igniting once the initial "stratified" charge has increased the chamber temp/pressure past 230C. All attempts cost the manufacturers & in OMCs case killed the Co outright. Only gases burn, no liquids no matter how flammable they are, actually "burn", all liquids that can burn only do so once they're fully vapourised. It's the vapour that allows oxygen to be available to support the combustion. Most flammable fuels have a mixture range in which it's possible to sustain combustion, ie if the mixture is too fuel lean then the vapour is so thinly disbursed with air that a flame front can't advance quickly enough to consume the charge, or if it's too fuel rich then the vapour does not allow enough air (oxygen) to be available to sustain the combustion process. Simple enough to prove when the older engines that had a mixture screw on the idle circuit of the carburetor, too lean & it stalled too rich & it stalled. Or if you "flood" an engine (too rich) there is raw fuel in the plugs so no ignition. Lean at power is a big problem, as said the flame front cannot be guaranteed to travel at a predictable & known speed because it isn't uniformly carried in the chamber. This means that the slow burn allows excessive heat to buildup in the combustion chamber so that the the remaining un-ignited pockets of fuel can auto ignite. Petrol vapour will auto ignite if it is in contact with anything having a temp above about 230C. This is the basic problem with trying to run any combustion process in a closed chamber with a fuel air mixture already captive in the chamber, the burn will proceed once originally ignited very quickly. With E-Tec they won't tell anyone just how lean the mixture is that they're trying to run at up to close to 2000 rpm, (when a large OB is making large amounts of power & therefore heat) but given that when OMC released Ficht we couldn't shut the lying dealers up about how they run the Ficht engines are mixtures of 40-1 & also looking at the "claimed" fuel savings in the E-Tec marketing being run by the dealers it's pretty clear they are at least as lean as 40-1 but given the new EPA regs since Ficht maybe even leaner. Regardless this is dangerously lean as proven with the reliability of the Fichts:-) Once the combustion chamber can buildup enough heat such that any part of it exceeds 230C then autoignition of the remaining air fuel charge will occur which is generally called detonation. Once detonation commences the extreme pressure peaks create even more chamber heat & the process becomes self sustaining, indeed such that even if the mixture is then richened the detonation will continue or commence or get worse because the hot chamber just auto ignites the charge. So the very idea of running very lean mixtures at power is proven to be a failure & as you'll see in the following of the series E-Tec well know it but as with past failed attempts claim they can run their charge "stratified" i.e. they place the minimal fuel around the spark plug so even though the burn is totally out of control, it will all be consumed not leaving enough residual (called end gases) to create detonation. K Of course the E-Tec series will need to also include a Krause lie or a loony Tom paste:-) & the Krause lie for today is his Vietnam lie, the one he concocted when in a fit of jealousy that John was a true patriot & served his country like a real man, while socialist scum like Krause cowed behind their lies back in the safety of their unions. Just to make your day, not only was I a civilian employee in SE Asia, it was in Vietnam, it was during the war against Vietnam, I did see some horrific sights and I was working at the time for a U.S. general. Is that straightforward enough for you, John, or is your amoeba still chasing your synapse The stuff at the end detracts from what was an interesting post. Show us your series, but the personal attack stuff will just ensure you get personal attacks in response instead of on-subject debate. Please? Sorry John. The liar Krause will fight the series all the way because the union fund he works for has a vested interest just as it did with Ficht, will he admit it?? no of course not he's a liar:-) Again apologies if I upset you but each of us handle this grub in their own way, mine is not to surrender. Peace is a noble aim of course, one the bullies rely upon to get their way, it works for them so they use it. K |
#4
posted to rec.boats
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E-Tec problems series 1
On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 07:39:48 -0400, Harry Krause
wrote: JohnH wrote: On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:24:00 +1000, "K. Smith" wrote: The E-Tec range of OB engines are now getting sold in numbers into various markets & their ads are a total pain. So some anti-ads are in order. The stuff at the end detracts from what was an interesting post. Show us your series, but the personal attack stuff will just ensure you get personal attacks in response instead of on-subject debate. Please? Interesting? It's a troll. You got hooked. I assume since it is a lovely Sunday, we'll see you out on the Bay later? This early in the season it isn't too crowded. We'll probably head up to Deale from BP, since the winds are out of the NW and I'd rather face the chop heading out instead of at the end of the day. I'm waiting for the outside temp to get close to 60 before I wake up my wife. If she sees it is only 49.9999F right now, there's no hope! No, SWMBO has decreed that we must attend her niece's graduation party. The weather reports do look good for today, though. Wayne Morgan was out yesterday and landed five keepers, trolling, in 3-4 foot waves. You probably know him, as he used to keep his boat at BP. Now he docks it in Deale. The word is that there are still some keepers out there, but the blues are starting to have their way with plastic lures. My last day of subbing is Tuesday, so I may try to get out Wednesday if the weather holds. You've not mentioned the big boat lately. Are you getting out in it at all? Is it running OK? |
#5
posted to rec.boats
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E-Tec problems series 1
K. Smith blathered usual verbal diarrhea....
My my! That 06/06/06 date thing has stirred up our resident Tasmanian Devil. |
#6
posted to rec.boats
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E-Tec problems series 1
"Don White" wrote in message ... K. Smith blathered usual verbal diarrhea.... My my! That 06/06/06 date thing has stirred up our resident Tasmanian Devil. At least it has to do with boats and boating, unlike most of the posts in this group. As for Etec, the next five years will tell the tale. Optimax seems to be doing ok, although Merc's stated direction is 4 strokes. That would leave BRP as the only "major manufacturer" selling only 2 strokes. del |
#7
posted to rec.boats
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E-Tec problems series 1
You're overlooking the possibility that additional research and development may have improved the technology. Simply because FICHT didn't work out as well as initially hoped may not be sufficient reason to write off E-Tec as automatically defective. Also, "while you were out," most of the participants in this NG have sworn off personal attacks and you will notice that the number of off topic troll posts is way down. If you're going to insist on including vicious personal remarks about other posters with every contribution, you will be the only person in the NG consistently engaging in the practice. One of the arguments that Evinrude advances is that they are an independent outboard motor company that is not owned by a corporation that also builds boats. According to Evinrude, when a builder chooses to recommend Evinrude as a preferred engine it is because they like the engine rather than because an incestuous corporate structure requires it. You can find new Evinrudes on: Alumacraft Angler Aqua Patio Avalon Bennington Blue Wave Campion Cape Horn Carolina Skiff Champion Crest DArgel Dusky Glastron Harris Kayot Hurricane Hydra-Sports Interpid Key West Larson Mako Manitou Maycraft McKee Craft Mirrocraft Misty Harbor Nautic Star Odyssey Palm Beach Polar Kraft Premier Ranger Sea Ark Sea Fox Sea Swirl Smoker Craft (OK, OK, that does leave an opening, doesn't it?) Stratos Sundance Triumph VIP Waco Aloha War Eagle Weeres Wellcraft Xpress Zodiac It would seem odd to me that this diverse group of builders would run the risk of customer dissatisfaction that would spread from the engine to the entire ownership experience by recommending a product known to be defective or inferior. |
#8
posted to rec.boats
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E-Tec problems series 1
"Del Cecchi" wrote in message As for Etec, the next five years will tell the tale. Optimax seems to be doing ok, although Merc's stated direction is 4 strokes. That would leave BRP as the only "major manufacturer" selling only 2 strokes. Merc is now pushing Optimax as Verado sales are not as high as expected have performance and economy concerns, according to industry gurus. They are also going back to a few traditional 2-strokes as there is still a market for them. Yamaha recently added a few models of older 2-strokes with incentives for re-powering. Johnson is back in production for 2007 with a few traditional 2 strokes and some smaller 2-strokes. It's not a 4-stroke world at the moment as some have predicted. E-TEC sales are above projections and there is a backlog of some popular models, especially the 115-150-175and 60° 200 hp engines. Bill Grannis service manager |
#9
posted to rec.boats
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E-Tec problems series 1
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#10
posted to rec.boats
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E-Tec problems series 1
K. Smith wrote: Only gases burn, no liquids no matter how flammable they are, actually "burn", all liquids that can burn only do so once they're fully vapourised. It's the vapour that allows oxygen to be available to support the combustion. Are you sure that's correct? I think diesel fuel is atomized, not vaporized, to support combustion. The fuel can burn because each microdrop is surrounded by an atmosphere that contains oxygen. |
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