Looks like (the Department of) Homeland Security is alive and well. Like
when they split funds to protect ports with all 50 States!
U.S. Firing Plans for Great Lakes Raise Concerns


New York Times

GRAND HAVEN, Mich., Oct. 10 - Even in autumn, the cold, silent expanse
of Lake Michigan defines this town, where pleasure boats glide into harbor,
fishermen wait patiently for salmon and tourists peer up at the lighthouse.

But the United States Coast Guard has a new mission for the waters off
of these quiet shores. For the first time, Coast Guard officials want to
mount machine guns routinely on their cutters and small boats here and
around all five of the Great Lakes as part of a program addressing the
threats of terrorism after Sept. 11.

And, for the first time in memory, Coast Guard members plan to use a
stretch of water at least five miles off this Michigan shore - and 33 other
offshore spots near cities like Cleveland; Rochester; Milwaukee; Duluth,
Minn.; and Gary, Ind. - as permanent, live fire shooting zones for training
on their new 7.62 mm weapons, which can blast as many as 650 rounds a minute
and send fire more than 4,000 yards.

The notion is so unusual that it prompted United States diplomats to
negotiate with Canadian authorities in order to agree that it would not
violate a 189-year-old treaty, signed after the War of 1812, limiting arms
on the Great Lakes.

Many here in Grand Haven, a town whose history is so lovingly
intertwined with the Coast Guard that it holds an annual festival
celebrating the service branch, say they think of Coast Guard members mainly
as the rugged sailors who race off to search for and save troubled boaters.
But even here, in a town that calls itself "Coast Guard City U.S.A.," some
say the thought of members firing machine guns anywhere near these waters
strikes them as dangerous to ordinary boaters, potentially damaging to the
Great Lakes' ecosystem and, frankly, a somewhat surprising place to be
bracing for terrorists.

"You know exactly what's going to happen with this," said Bob Foster,
58, who said he spends every chance he gets on the waters here. "Some boater
is going to inadvertently drive through the live fire zone and get blown out
of the water."

Carole Loftis, the owner of Snug Harbor, a popular restaurant with
windows on the water, said that although she certainly carried concerns,
like most Americans, about terrorism, drunken boating seemed a more frequent
threat around here. "This seems a little like overkill," Ms. Loftis said of
the shooting plans.

Despite complaints from some charter boat captains, environmental
groups and city leaders around the Great Lakes, the Coast Guard defended the
need to mount M-240B machine guns on its boats and to test fire them two or
three times a year in "safety zones," about 70 square miles each.

"The Coast Guard has looked at an increased terrorist threat since
2001," Rear Adm. John E. Crowley Jr., commander of the Coast Guard district
that oversees the Great Lakes, said in a telephone interview. "I don't know
when or if something might happen on the Great Lakes, but I don't want to
learn the hard way."

Some members of the Coast Guard assigned to law enforcement duties
always carried weapons, but most of those were personal semiautomatic
pistols. Since the arrival of the boat-mounted machine guns, the Coast Guard
has conducted 24 training sessions on the lakes this year, although it has
halted the exercises temporarily after news of the program seeped out last
month and, with it, a barrage of objection.

"When I heard, I thought it was something from The Onion newspaper or
an Internet hoax," said Mike Bradley, the mayor of Sarnia, Ontario, which
sits beside Lake Huron, where 6 of the 34 live fire zones are planned. "This
whole thing was done way below the radar."

The Coast Guard's plans for permanent training zones were published in
the Federal Register on Aug. 1, along with the promise of a month for public
comment, but city leaders and ordinary boaters said that most of them never
came across the document and that the authorities failed to provide them
with any other notice of live fire plans - a fact that left some saying they
felt as though the Coast Guard, now part of the Department of Homeland
Security, was trying quietly to slip the whole weapons program past them.

Herb Bergson, the mayor of Duluth, got a telephone call in September
from a resident who said she was listening to her marine scanner, heard talk
of shooting on Lake Superior and wanted the mayor to explain what was going
on.

"I didn't know what to tell her," Mr. Bergson said. "I was caught just
flat-footed. No one told me, and they should have."

Coast Guard leaders - who have since announced nine public meetings in
Great Lakes cities, starting Monday, and have extended until Nov. 13 the
period for people to weigh in on the idea - acknowledge that they initially
failed to publicize the weapons training program. "I've got no good answer
for that," said Lt. j.g. Ryan Barone, a spokesman.

But the plans themselves, which ultimately would mean machine guns
mounted on the vessels of more than 50 Coast Guard units throughout the
Great Lakes, were carefully conceived, Lieutenant Barone said. Information
about the proposal and scheduled public meetings is at
uscgd9safetyzones.com.

All of the proposed firing zones sit at least five nautical miles from
shores and from Canadian waters, as well as far from commercial shipping
lanes and sensitive marine areas, Lieutenant Barone said. During the
training days, when Coast Guard gunners will shoot at floating foam buoys,
other boaters will be notified on marine radio frequencies, he said, and
every test will include a designated safety observer.

Admiral Crowley said, "I don't feel there's a risk to anyone out
there."

Around the Great Lakes, some people said they were supportive of the
presence of machine guns and the planned tests. The risks of terrorism, they
said, cannot be underestimated - even in small towns, even in the Upper
Midwest. And as with extra airport safety measures, they said, the live fire
tests may be inconvenient but they are needed.

Several ferry operators in Michigan, who carry cars and passengers
across Lake Michigan, said they were satisfied that their customers would be
safe. Ken Alvey, president of the Lake Erie Marine Trades Association, which
represents some 80 marine businesses, said he was comfortable knowing that
the Coast Guard members would practice on their new weapons.

"To say we don't have to worry about our open border with Canada would
be foolish," Mr. Alvey said. "You never know what avenue terrorists will
take."

But others, especially recreational boaters and professional fishing
guides, said they were worried. Though most emphasized their support and
gratitude to the Coast Guard, they said they did not even listen to their
radios much anymore (unless a storm is rolling in) and could miss warnings
altogether.

Ron Mihevc, who takes customers fishing out of the harbor at Waukegan,
Ill., said he feared that the planned firing zone near Waukegan sits "right
in the middle" of a prime fishing spot that draws scores of fishermen. Kelly
J. Campise, another Waukegan boat captain, said fishermen already were
carrying their clients many miles into Lake Michigan in search of salmon and
trout at great fuel expense; going still further away to avoid the firing
zones would cost still more, he said.

An 89-page environmental study, commissioned by federal authorities,
concluded that rounds left in the lakes from the Coast Guard exercises would
cause no harm, but Hugh McDiarmid Jr., a spokesman for the Michigan
Environmental Council, said a "fuller environmental risk assessment," given
the lead content of the rounds in particular, was needed.

For years, Coast Guard boats have been armed, and training has been
conducted off of the coasts of this country, said Brad J. Kieserman, chief
of the operations law group at Coast Guard headquarters.

On the Great Lakes, weapons training by military branches like the
Navy has also occurred in years gone by, dating back to World War I and
World War II. But in keeping with a treaty known as Rush-Bagot from 1817,
Coast Guard vessels on the Great Lakes have historically not included naval
armaments.

But in 2003, federal authorities sought an understanding with their
Canadian counterparts about Rush-Bagot in preparation for mounting machine
guns on cutters so that the Coast Guard could "prevent terrorists or others
engaged in criminal activities from crossing the United States-Canadian
boundary by water," according to documents from the exchange between the two
countries.

In recent days, though, some Canadian mayors, who said they had not
heard of the plans until this fall, have objected vehemently. David Miller,
the mayor of Toronto, said he worried about practical, safety aspects of the
weapons plan and about the environment, but also about the precedent set for
the lakes' more than 94,000 square miles of water.

"Our treaty had always said that the Great Lakes will not be
militarized," Mr. Miller said. "And in effect, this remilitarizes them in
the name of a threat from 9/11."



http://www.gainesville.com/apps/pbcs...0311/-1/wire02

MMC wrote:
Looks like (the Department of) Homeland Security is alive and well. Like
when they split funds to protect ports with all 50 States!
U.S. Firing Plans for Great Lakes Raise Concerns


New York Times

GRAND HAVEN, Mich., Oct. 10 - Even in autumn, the cold, silent expanse
of Lake Michigan defines this town, where pleasure boats glide into harbor,
fishermen wait patiently for salmon and tourists peer up at the lighthouse.

But the United States Coast Guard has a new mission for the waters off
of these quiet shores. For the first time, Coast Guard officials want to
mount machine guns routinely on their cutters and small boats here and
around all five of the Great Lakes as part of a program addressing the
threats of terrorism after Sept. 11.

And, for the first time in memory, Coast Guard members plan to use a
stretch of water at least five miles off this Michigan shore - and 33 other
offshore spots near cities like Cleveland; Rochester; Milwaukee; Duluth,
Minn.; and Gary, Ind. - as permanent, live fire shooting zones for training
on their new 7.62 mm weapons, which can blast as many as 650 rounds a minute
and send fire more than 4,000 yards.

The notion is so unusual that it prompted United States diplomats to
negotiate with Canadian authorities in order to agree that it would not
violate a 189-year-old treaty, signed after the War of 1812, limiting arms
on the Great Lakes.

Many here in Grand Haven, a town whose history is so lovingly
intertwined with the Coast Guard that it holds an annual festival
celebrating the service branch, say they think of Coast Guard members mainly
as the rugged sailors who race off to search for and save troubled boaters.
But even here, in a town that calls itself "Coast Guard City U.S.A.," some
say the thought of members firing machine guns anywhere near these waters
strikes them as dangerous to ordinary boaters, potentially damaging to the
Great Lakes' ecosystem and, frankly, a somewhat surprising place to be
bracing for terrorists.

"You know exactly what's going to happen with this," said Bob Foster,
58, who said he spends every chance he gets on the waters here. "Some boater
is going to inadvertently drive through the live fire zone and get blown out
of the water."


How does one "inadvertently" drive through an area under fire by
automatic weapons? I have been fishing the waters off San Clemente
Island , thats in the pacific off San Diego, for years and no on has
been killed there. The Navy lets us know when the area is off limits,
very seldom, and no one has been killed there due to live fire
exercises.I suggest you do a little research before posting false gloom
and doom info. Our armed forces need all the practice they can get. Oh
an excuse me if I dont suck up to your obvious troll. I spent 16 years
in FLA, thats Florida to you snowbirds, where the CG is fully armed up
to deck guns. No one has been killed there due to live fire practice.

In article ExTYg.5780$gM1.5282@fed1read12, says...
MMC wrote:
Looks like (the Department of) Homeland Security is alive and well. Like
when they split funds to protect ports with all 50 States!
U.S. Firing Plans for Great Lakes Raise Concerns


New York Times

GRAND HAVEN, Mich., Oct. 10 - Even in autumn, the cold, silent expanse
of Lake Michigan defines this town, where pleasure boats glide into harbor,
fishermen wait patiently for salmon and tourists peer up at the lighthouse.

But the United States Coast Guard has a new mission for the waters off
of these quiet shores. For the first time, Coast Guard officials want to
mount machine guns routinely on their cutters and small boats here and
around all five of the Great Lakes as part of a program addressing the
threats of terrorism after Sept. 11.

And, for the first time in memory, Coast Guard members plan to use a
stretch of water at least five miles off this Michigan shore - and 33 other
offshore spots near cities like Cleveland; Rochester; Milwaukee; Duluth,
Minn.; and Gary, Ind. - as permanent, live fire shooting zones for training
on their new 7.62 mm weapons, which can blast as many as 650 rounds a minute
and send fire more than 4,000 yards.

The notion is so unusual that it prompted United States diplomats to
negotiate with Canadian authorities in order to agree that it would not
violate a 189-year-old treaty, signed after the War of 1812, limiting arms
on the Great Lakes.

Many here in Grand Haven, a town whose history is so lovingly
intertwined with the Coast Guard that it holds an annual festival
celebrating the service branch, say they think of Coast Guard members mainly
as the rugged sailors who race off to search for and save troubled boaters.
But even here, in a town that calls itself "Coast Guard City U.S.A.," some
say the thought of members firing machine guns anywhere near these waters
strikes them as dangerous to ordinary boaters, potentially damaging to the
Great Lakes' ecosystem and, frankly, a somewhat surprising place to be
bracing for terrorists.

"You know exactly what's going to happen with this," said Bob Foster,
58, who said he spends every chance he gets on the waters here. "Some boater
is going to inadvertently drive through the live fire zone and get blown out
of the water."


How does one "inadvertently" drive through an area under fire by
automatic weapons? I have been fishing the waters off San Clemente
Island , thats in the pacific off San Diego, for years and no on has
been killed there. The Navy lets us know when the area is off limits,
very seldom, and no one has been killed there due to live fire
exercises.I suggest you do a little research before posting false gloom
and doom info. Our armed forces need all the practice they can get. Oh
an excuse me if I dont suck up to your obvious troll. I spent 16 years
in FLA, thats Florida to you snowbirds, where the CG is fully armed up
to deck guns. No one has been killed there due to live fire practice.



I'd say that the concerned boaters ought to be more worried about
cruising anywhere within mile of shore during deer season!

While the theoretical range of the 7.67 machine gun round may be
3000 yards, the Coast guard is not gonna be shooting at anything
more than a few hundred yards away. The rounds will hit the water
and probably not go more than a thousand yards.

Like all military live-fire excercises, there will be observers
watching for non-targets in the fire zone.

Boaters east of the Mississippi just seem to want all military
activities to head West over the horizon. Out here on the West
coast we have closure zones the size of small Eastern states
---Well, Rhode Island, anyway! ;-)

One of the things you always listen for when boating in Puget
Sound and BC, is whether they are firing torpedos in Dabob
Bay or area Whiskey Golf near Nanaimo BC. They announce the
closures on the weather channels. People pay attention and
there are few problems.

Mark Borgerson

In article ,
Mark Borgerson mborgerson.at.comcast.net wrote:

MMC wrote:
Looks like (the Department of) Homeland Security is alive and well.
U.S. Firing Plans for Great Lakes Raise Concerns

And, for the first time in memory, Coast Guard members plan to use
a stretch of water at least five miles off this Michigan shore

Note it says "at least five miles off"

as permanent, live fire shooting zones for training

I'd say that the concerned boaters ought to be more worried about
cruising anywhere within mile of shore during deer season!

Make that 5 miles, and you got it. I've seen some of my friends'
ordinance.

Like all military live-fire excercises, there will be observers
watching for non-targets in the fire zone.

Boaters east of the Mississippi just seem to want all military
activities to head West over the horizon.

Not quite true, but people hate change.

There's a large Navy firing range in the southern (or, to some Bay
sailors, middle) Chesapeake. Don't know whether it's for aircraft.
ships, boats or some combination, but THEIR ordinance can go a quite a
distance.

Part of the ICW in the Carolinas is through a Marine training ground
(too lazy to look up which) and traffic sometimes is stopped to avoid
mishaps.

And I used to watch A-10s head off to target practice over in central
NJ -- not all of Jersey is turnpike, urban decay and chemical dum^h^h^h
plants, just most of it ;-)

--
Jere Lull
Xan-a-Deux ('73 Tanzer 28 #4 out of Tolchester, MD)
Xan's Pages: http://members.dca.net/jerelull/X-Main.html
Our BVI FAQs (290+ pics) http://homepage.mac.com/jerelull/BVI/

Jere Lull wrote:

In article ,
Mark Borgerson mborgerson.at.comcast.net wrote:

MMC wrote:
Looks like (the Department of) Homeland Security is alive and well.
U.S. Firing Plans for Great Lakes Raise Concerns

And, for the first time in memory, Coast Guard members plan to use
a stretch of water at least five miles off this Michigan shore

Note it says "at least five miles off"

as permanent, live fire shooting zones for training

I'd say that the concerned boaters ought to be more worried about
cruising anywhere within mile of shore during deer season!

Make that 5 miles, and you got it. I've seen some of my friends'
ordinance.

Like all military live-fire excercises, there will be observers
watching for non-targets in the fire zone.

Boaters east of the Mississippi just seem to want all military
activities to head West over the horizon.

Not quite true, but people hate change.

There's a large Navy firing range in the southern (or, to some Bay
sailors, middle) Chesapeake. Don't know whether it's for aircraft.
ships, boats or some combination, but THEIR ordinance can go a quite a
distance.

The one I'm most familiar with is off Point No Point, and sometimes it is
jets, sometimes it is helicopters and sometimes it is gunboats. I've seen
all three. They keep a bigger distance for the gun boats, as the planes
can be pretty accurate - especially the helicopters.

Part of the ICW in the Carolinas is through a Marine training ground
(too lazy to look up which) and traffic sometimes is stopped to avoid
mishaps.

It's Camp Lejeune south of Beaufort NC and north of Wrightsville Beach

There are warning signs at each end of the area, and you can tune to the
530 AM radio or call the Coast Guard to see if there is going to be an
exercise going on. .

The signs say "STOP DO NOT PROCEED WHEN FLASHING - Live Firing in Progress
When Flashing - Tune to AM 530"

Not all exercises involve live ammunition, and not all the live ammunition
exercises are in the vicinity of the ICW. The guard towers also fly big red
flags if there is live ammunition

The website says: "Camp Lejeune occupies 170 square miles, (111,000 acres),
including 14 miles of beach front along the Atlantic Ocean. With 54 live
firing ranges, 15 major training/maneuvering areas subdivided into 56
individual training and maneuvering sections with 34 gun positions, 23
tactical landing zones, 26 administrative landing zones, 12 parachute drop
zones and a "Military Operations in Urban Terrain" or MOUT training
complex.

There are six major Marine Corps commands and two Navy commands aboard Camp
Lejeune.

I've been through this area right after they were doing live fire with a
ship - in 2004 - I wrote:

At 0955 around MM 255 (nearing high tide) saw 10 feet in the channel. They
are doing live firing exercises off the Marine base again today. This time
it is Navy Warship 58 (yesterday it was Navy Warship 60). We hear him
talking to a sailboat bound for Beaufort [out in the ocean]

Three little navy safety boats passed going lickety split south. CHATEAU LA
MER from Tampa passed going north. The live fire exercises are over. We are
approaching the Onslow Beach bridge. I can see people picnicking and
playing volleyball etc on the ocean side - young men with no shirts -
presumably marines.

Now we hear Navy Warship 58 has a fouled bore and is trying to keep folks
away from him 15 nm while he proceeds out to sea.

We are going through the Marine Base now, and see various pieces of
equipment in the marshes.

As we go by Bear Inlet, a small red official looking RIB whizzes past.

1335- there is a barge along side the channel with pipes, and a dredge and
another barge ahead of us. I have had the radio on scan, listening to the
Navy Warship with the fouled bore and other conversations, so I don't hear
if the barge says anything to us, but I observe a shrimp boat coming south
opposite the barge, and see with binoculars that there is a little tug
pushing the barge out of the channel.

And I used to watch A-10s head off to target practice over in central
NJ -- not all of Jersey is turnpike, urban decay and chemical dum^h^h^h
plants, just most of it ;-)

On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:33:23 +0000, MMC wrote:

Looks like (the Department of) Homeland Security is alive and well.

Yes and they're doing a great job of keeping Americans paranoid 24/7.
They can play with their guns all they want as long as they point them
toward their shores.

mr.b wrote:
On Mon, 16 Oct 2006 13:33:23 +0000, MMC wrote:

Looks like (the Department of) Homeland Security is alive and well.

Yes and they're doing a great job of keeping Americans paranoid 24/7.
They can play with their guns all they want as long as they point them
toward their shores.

obviously never been to NYC...